Just a quick question to help me with a discussion elsewhere on Southern DOO please, if anyone's got the answer to hand. When did Gatwick Express go DOO, and how long did it take for their OBS-esque bods to disappear off trains after that?
-
Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!
Southern DOO: ASLEF members vote 79.1% for revised deal
- Thread starter hornbyfan99
- Start date
- Status
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R
RailUK Forums
bavvo
Member
I could be wrong, but presumably the difference as far as the DFT and GTR are concerned, is if the OBS go on strike, the trains still run, if the Guards go on strike the trains are cancelled. It seems to me the real aim is not to reduce the number of staff on trains today, but to reduce the bargaining power of the unions in the future by removing the mandatory requirements for a second person.
It went DOO on introduction of the class 460s which happened around the year 2000
Last edited:
Earlier on in this thread comments were made about Conductors not walking through trains, sitting in cabs etc and it was quickly jumped on. Comments were made about that is the exception and the majority are walking through unless it is very busy. Making regular announcements being proactive in giving customer service. But it seems you are saying your experience of such conductors is rare
Sprinter153
Member
Unfortunately a lot of the Southern guards (certainly in my own area, not far from Deepgreen) do seem to be vestibule dwellers. Other favourites include not watching the train clear of the platform and leaving a panel open with a live key in and walking off to check their phone / sell a ticket / sit down, both of which if seen at my TOC would have you taken off track straight away and put on a competence development plan.
I do have some great colleagues at Southern but there are also a lot who simply do not bother. I've been telling people for a couple of years now that we need to make ourselves visible and useful to demonstrate the value of our role to the managers and bean-counters, and how some people have laughed. And yet, here we are... and the vestibule/cab dwellers and ne'er-do-wells are reflecting badly on us all.
I do have some great colleagues at Southern but there are also a lot who simply do not bother. I've been telling people for a couple of years now that we need to make ourselves visible and useful to demonstrate the value of our role to the managers and bean-counters, and how some people have laughed. And yet, here we are... and the vestibule/cab dwellers and ne'er-do-wells are reflecting badly on us all.
What are guards on? £29k??? That is a bloody good salary for what they do... i know there is always potential for things to go wrong and they do have to deal with the public in many many difficult situations.
We all know what the DfT want to do long term....... cut guards completely and replace them with agency staff on minimum wage..or have to staff at all.
Take away train dispatch duties and its hard to see how £29k per guard is viable.
I wonder if a compromise could be met by either guards taking a pay cut or a long term pay freeze and still doing dispatch duties.... at least that keeps their job secure albeit on a lower salary.
Remember Easyjet cabin crew are only on £16k.
Last edited:
swt class 450
Guest
- Joined
- 9 Apr 2016
- Messages
- 1,909
I have to say most Southern Guards do indeed seem to always leave their door control panels open with the keys in it unattended and leave their Avantix machine by the door unattended while they sit down and/or go on their phones and/or read a book between stops. And then you get some of them who prefer to stay in the rear cab rather than the vestibule. I would say as little as 10% of Southern Guards actually bother to check tickets. I regularly use up to four Southern trains (with Guards) a day yet the last time that i had my ticket checked was in March. Saying that though most Southern Guards seem like nice helpful people and will happily sell you a ticket if you find them and ask to buy one.
No, this is certainly one of the key things that DfT bigwigs are expecting to get.
Fincra5
Established Member
- Joined
- 6 Jun 2009
- Messages
- 2,636
I can't say there's much will to do tickets at the moment.... I know more than 10% walk through and check their trains. Sometimes it depends on frequency of stops, the area (trouble makers etc)...
Xenophon PCDGS
Veteran Member
What is your official DfT source for the part of your posting that I have so emboldened?
If, based on the average weekly shift hours worked at present, times the minimum wage at present, what does that equate to in terms of an annual salary?
Railway staff get paid for what they know, not what they do. This mainly means route knowledge, rules and what to do in an emergency. That doesn't preclude them from doing their mandatory duties though. The standing by the door thing is a rule book mandatory so they should be doing it.
If southern are only on £29k then something went wrong. Great western are on £31k on the old Wessex routes, and SWT are on £36k plus 5% commission. (Non commercial are on £29k).
I agree with the comments that they need to prove their value though across the industry, not just southern.
If southern are only on £29k then something went wrong. Great western are on £31k on the old Wessex routes, and SWT are on £36k plus 5% commission. (Non commercial are on £29k).
I agree with the comments that they need to prove their value though across the industry, not just southern.
Monty
Established Member
- Joined
- 12 Jun 2012
- Messages
- 2,373
SWT guards have a longer working week though, that's why we have a higher salary.
How about the alternative of providing a more robustly reliable service?
25yr old + Min wage £7.20
£7.20 * 35hr week = £252
52 * £252 = £13,104
Is there any wonder why we have so many people signing on for the dole. Is £29kpa "bloody good" or just a reasonable salary that has kept up with inflation over the years.
If there are OBS people on Gatwick Express now, why get with of the train hosts previously?
Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk
OBS on GatEx for learning the ropes on a DOO service but on route (especially the Brighton extensions) where OBS will be used by SN???
If so it may be temporary...
Jobseekers Allowance for a single person £73.10 per week equals £3,801.20 per year. Sure you'll get help with your rent though that'll be enough to, maybe, cover your rent alone so nothing left over afterwards (and if you're in a mortgaged property you're stuffed to be frank).
tsr
Established Member
No, there are dedicated OBSs for GX (and the plan is for more).
At the time it was probably an easy way to for the TOC to quickly save a few quid whilst avoiding anything remotely similar to the major and prolonged battle with the unions we see today as it was already DOO,
GTR are no worse than the rest of the industry in this respect, Where they've felt they can get away with it similar practices have been pursued at many other TOCs including finding ways of quietly reducing staff numbers involved in things like onboard catering, maintenance, ticket selling and revenue protection, cleaning regimes, station and on train security etc etc
Last edited:
Without starting a discussion...
I appreciate that and from personal experience I can tell you that when I went through my own time being unemployed I was taking in around £18k on unemployment benefits etc. At the time it was more than I had ever earned in my adult life. It was recommended, off the record, that I was better off unemployed than in my job at the time.
My issue with the complaints about how much Guards earn and frankly the complaints about anyone's wage. Is that having employment opportunity for unqualified people that has little barrier to entry, a reasonable wage, pension and benefits etc should be supported not derided.
I never went to Uni but why should I be artificially be denied a decent wage because I'm considered to be uneducated ?
I won't deny that I do see the railway as very well paid across the board* but I also see that as a benefit to all. Competitive employment benefits the employee. Being unionised helps keep that wage on track. Fighting for your job, wage, conditions etc has kept the Guards role a very attractive job. Is it any wonder that they are fighting ?
*apologies to the poster when I previously mentioned this.
But still, £13k isn't going to get you very far (certainly not enough to rent anything) - and you'll still pay some tax and NI on that.
And now they are wishing to. Bring them back under a different name, which suggests they policy to get rid of them failed as I don't see any major differences in the running of the Gatwick Express service. If they didn't need them then, why do they need them now.
Yes it is 12 carriages but OBS are not involved with saftey so that doesn't matter.
Of course may be it is temporary for some reason best known to. Govia. Perhaps Govia think it will look good if the Gatwick Express wave OBS people for a time. Of course they are not free so if temporary they would have to go elsewhere soon enough.
Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk
"Bloody good" is in the eye of the beholder, but it's certainly more than kept price with inflation and against Average Weekly Earnings it's done better still. It's more than my son earns as a Teacher, which required 4 years training...
Which is gutting but again; who's problem is that. Is it the fault of the Guards that their wage is decent or the fault of the teachers that their role is underpaid ?
Should the Guards wage be deliberately deflated because Teachers are underpaid ? Should training always equate to a higher salary ? Surely its better to fight for those who are certainly underpaid than deride the wage of others ? Teachers also strike for pay and conditions but the level of vitriol aimed at Guard is shocking.
The Teacher role is also very varied. Not all Teachers are underpaid and some earn a reasonable salary. It's one of those professions that pays badly at the lower end but at the higher end it changes.
Not every job requires training and are much better paid than a Teacher.
Okay so there's no way on this earth you would have got £18k of unemployment benefits. A single person/couple you'd have got between £3-5k in pure unemployment benefits (though that assumes you and, if relevant, a partner were fit and healthy as if you were also on say Disability Living Allowance that would trigger extra amount on your unemployment benefit).
The remainder of that £18k would have been made up of Tax Credits (unless we're talking pre-2002), Housing Benefit, Child Benefit and Council Tax Support. Which are all benefits that a person in work could also claim.
Our 25 year old in your example, if they were single then sure they're pretty much screwed. But if they have children, even one (though I'm not going to do any calculations this early on a Sunday to check) then Tax Credits, Housing Benefit, Child Benefit and Council Tax Support would all, most likely, become available to them. Just as they are to someone on the dole.
Perhaps in your specific circumstances you were better off out of work. I can't comment as I don't know them. But in my experience I can think of very very few occasions when anyone would have been better off staying out of work compared to starting up work.
It's also worth recalling that the vast majority of benefits are paid to people who are in work not unemployed people.
I agree with you on all of that!
I completely agree.
RichardKing
Member
- Joined
- 25 Jul 2015
- Messages
- 565
From the Brighton Station Twitter account:
The Conductor in charge of the train received the 'safe-to-depart' signal from the dispatch staff on the platform. He closed the doors. He got the second safe-to-depart signal from the platform staff and took one final check.
He noticed an elderly passenger with his walking stick trapped in the door. He contacted the driver explaining what had occurred. On looking at his monitor the driver reported that he saw the passenger as clear of the train. The image on his monitor did not show the stick trapped in the door.
This certainly highlights the risks of driver-only dispatch in the 377s, especially seeing as the dark, wintry morning and evenings (i.e. the rush hours) are getting nearer and nearer!
The Conductor in charge of the train received the 'safe-to-depart' signal from the dispatch staff on the platform. He closed the doors. He got the second safe-to-depart signal from the platform staff and took one final check.
He noticed an elderly passenger with his walking stick trapped in the door. He contacted the driver explaining what had occurred. On looking at his monitor the driver reported that he saw the passenger as clear of the train. The image on his monitor did not show the stick trapped in the door.
This certainly highlights the risks of driver-only dispatch in the 377s, especially seeing as the dark, wintry morning and evenings (i.e. the rush hours) are getting nearer and nearer!
I was on a train with an OBS on it on Friday afternoon. I know they were an OBS as they made an announcement saying they were. In fact they made a copuple of announcements one as we left London Bridge, another appraoching Norwood J and another for Est Croydon.
In between making announcements they sat down chatting to a colleague. Just remind me how they benefit the passenger?
In between making announcements they sat down chatting to a colleague. Just remind me how they benefit the passenger?
- Status