Southern DOO: ASLEF members vote 79.1% for revised deal

[FordFocus]

Propping up Govia rapidly shrinking profit margin for the GTR franchise.

 

[infobleep]

The problem with this point is that part of the issue is that there is a belief that GTR are enforcing DOO because its what the Government wants. So this could be considered that the Government are paying to implement DOO.

Its been brought up before about the specifications in the franchise agreement that allow for X/Y and Z to happen so this is most likely already part of the franchise agreement somewhere.

As this is a management contract then aren't the Government already involved in this. GTR are only acting as their contractors and at the whim of the Government.

There was a select committee where they were all asked if the DfT should step in to help resolve the issues; maybe this is part of that ?

Keeping more directly on topic... Where does the £20m go ? Does that go towards redundancy payments ? Driver DOO money ? Infrastructure investment for DOO monitors on all platforms ? Guard panel upgrade for units ? £20m is a lot of money just to "give" a franchise. I suspect there are serious caveats involved.

Now that GTR got their way and the OBS role was introduced why is the dispute still ongoing ?


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-37245163

Some of it seems to be going to Network Rail, if I read it correctly, as they are reasonable for the track.

I'd interested in knowing what the RMTs views on this money are?

Ignore my last comment. Just read the full news report. So the head of RMT see it as a bail out. Does he include Network Rail in that?

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

 

[FordFocus]

Think there have been issues with signalling and track at Balcombe recently?

 

[ComUtoR]

Id interested in knowing what the RMTs views on this money are?

From the other thread it appears this isn't really going to GTR, just more of a fund and project group as targetted help.

I would say that the RMT will probably come out with some crap about the Goverment funding DOO but I would hope that they see any investment as a benefit to both passengers and staff. Extra staffing is something that even the RMT should be seen to be supporting.

 

[ainsworth74]

Propping up Govia rapidly shrinking profit margin for the GTR franchise.

As far as I'm aware Govia will be getting a management fee and the DfT have the revenue risk so their profit margin should be unaffected.

 

[Robertj21a]

Propping up Govia rapidly shrinking profit margin for the GTR franchise.

Where does it suggest that ?

 

[FordFocus]

Tongue in cheek

 

[74A]

Anyone know what happened to the ASLEF ballot. Closing date was Wednesday but nothing showing on their website. Been a couple of days and I would have thought we would have heard something by now.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

It would seem that the Government is releasing £20m for GTR to get to grips with their situation. Just popped up on BBC news

Have you the exact breakdown of where all this money is going to and on what?

 

[physics34]

Anyone know what happened to the ASLEF ballot. Closing date was Wednesday but nothing showing on their website. Been a couple of days and I would have thought we would have heard something by now.

Was called off. Due to and admin error I believe

 

[Chrisgr31]

Was called off. Due to and admin error I believe

Thats what the Standard said last night. As you might expect GTRs lawyers were all over the ballot and it appeared that in one location it was possible that ASLEF members who didnt drive a passenger train might have been balloted or similar.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
An issue on the Uckfield line indicated why you need a second member of staff on board.

As we come through Cowden tunnel on the 18:06 ex LBG there was an announcement "Will the guard contact the driver please".

Nothing more was heard until we stopped at Ashurst which is not a timetabled stop. The guard announces that the signaller as asked the driver to stop there as the points ahead that give access to the single line are broken and we will be there at least 40 minutes. He says the doors will be opened to allow fresh air. If anyone knows Cowden it is not the place to be stuck on a train, with the added disadvantage of there is exceptionally poor mobile signal. The guard also advises that there is nothing in the area, no pubs, shops or anything.

As it happened I drove to Eridge this morning so my car was there. I also have a fold up bike. I discussed with friends the options of cycling to Eridge to get the car but concluded it was too hilly on a fold up!

After about 15 minutes the Driver asked the guard to contact him again. However the guard obviously didnt presumably as the guard was on the platform dealing with passengers. The driver then announces that the train is terminating here at Ashurst and replacement buses are on order!

Definitely want one doesnt want! I got on my bike and cycled to Eridge meeting the Network Rail engineering crew going the other way down a narrow lane! When I got to Eridge I took the car back to Ashurst to oick up a friend. It was now over an hour since we had come to a halt and by the time I got there a coach had arrived.

As it happened my friend had a seat on the coach but the coach was full with quite a few passengers wanting to be on it! I shouted out offering 4 people a lift back to Crowborough which reduced the queue a bit. I understand the coach driver squeezed a few more on but he still had to leave 12 behind. No idea how long they had to wait.

Just as I got back to Crowborough at about 20:40 the line reopened and the northbound train stuck there left heading north. At that time the coach was on the outskirts of Tunbridge Wells heading to Eridge.

Its the second time I have been thrown off that service on a Friday evening, the last time being at Hever. The rural stations are not made for these numbers of people, there is no mobile reception and no where for the passengers to wait, no pub etc.

The fact that the points have failed might not be Southerns or indeed Network Rails fault but it is not fair on the on board crew, or the replacement coach driver that they then have to put up with the ire of the passengers when detrained there. Not only that but the fact the line reopened by the time I eventually got back to Crowborough and I was in advance of the coach shows that terminating the train was the wrong decision.

It cannot be acceptable to abandon hundreds of people in the middle of nowhere and rely on enough them finding their own way home that the one coach you send is almost enough to cope.

There is a rumour that British Transport Police were called to the station, no idea when they got there, or where they had to travel from!

Whilst it is not ideal it appears to me that the only sensible solution is either for the train to stay with the passengers, alternative transport can be arranged, passengers can make their own arrangements but at least they would have somewhere safe warm and dry (it was trying to rain this evening) to wait. or for the train to return with passengers to Edenbridge. Edenbridge is a town there are facilities, pubs, street lighting, road access is better and rail staff can get to it more easily from Oxted.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Was called off. Due to an admin error I believe

Any news from ASLEF when the ballot will actually now be held?

 

[Robertj21a]

After 368 pages we have 4 days of nothing posted. Nothing happening ?

 

[the sniper]

After 368 pages we have 4 days of nothing posted. Nothing happening ?

Everyone finally got sick of having the same argument over and over and over and over and over again! This isn't a bad thing!

If you take out all of that, you wouldn't be looking at a thread of 368 pages and it'd be no surprise to have big gaps between actual news.

 

[redbutton]

In the past few days I was actually able to encounter a working OBS in the messroom. He was an ex-RPI.

It turns out that all those assurances the company gave about the OBSs having all the same training and competence as a proper guard (except door operation) were bull manure as many expected and feared.

This particular OBS, who was out working trains solo, has had no additional training other than how to use the PA handsets and GSMR, but without PTS or rules or route knowledge so although he could make emergency calls he would have no idea what to say once he got through to someone.

With regard to routes, they have been issued an A5 booklet listing platform lengths and disability access for each station, but the information has been discovered to be outdated and incorrect in places.

My personal impression is that the whole thing was rushed to meet a deadline, the "visible presence" they keep talking about is merely an empty shirt who may provide revenue protection and not much else, and safety and customer service are definitely going to suffer.

Note that I base this on actual observations of the role in the field, rather than mere speculation.

 

[redstar]

It turns out that all those assurances the company gave about the OBSs having all the same training and competence as a proper guard (except door operation) were bull manure as many expected and feared.

I don't think they did give assurances about those things: they made an offer to the RMT to address those points in the hope of getting an agreement. But there was no agreement. All that the company has promised in the absence of an agreement is to maintain jobs and salaries until the end of the franchise.

 

[swt class 450]

So yesterday i had an "On Board Supervisor" on board a Gatwick Express service. When we left Gatwick Airport he made an announcent saying "Good Evening. This is the On Board Supervisor. This train is the Gatwick Express service to London Victoria calling at London Victoria only". But he spent the entire journey sitting hiding away in the rear cab. Not once did he leave the rear cab or walk through the train or check tickets.

 

[JamesTT]

So yesterday i had an "On Board Supervisor" on board a Gatwick Express service. When we left Gatwick Airport he made an announcent saying "Good Evening. This is the On Board Supervisor. This train is the Gatwick Express service to London Victoria calling at London Victoria only". But he spent the entire journey sitting hiding away in the rear cab. Not once did he leave the rear cab or walk through the train or check tickets.

I am sure this will be the exception. There are a handful of back cab Billy/Belinda's who are conductors but this is not the norm.

 

[Carlisle]

although he could make emergency calls he would have no idea what to say once he got through to someone.

I'd be very surprised if his training didnt include any practice in actually making a simulated emergency call via a GSMR and how to report it correctly to the signalman

 

[Deepgreen]

Propping up Govia rapidly shrinking profit margin for the GTR franchise.

To bolster Govia's measly £100m annual profit.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I am sure this will be the exception. There are a handful of back cab Billy/Belinda's who are conductors but this is not the norm.

I've only seen about two or three OBS/conductors 'patrolling' in the last several months, with first class abuse increasing rapidly. Those who DID check were excellent, but they are rare.

 

[tsr]

I'd be very surprised if his training didnt include any practice in actually making a simulated emergency call via a GSMR and how to report it correctly to the signalman

Not wishing to say too much, but I wouldn't be surprised.

Even Southern's conductors don't generally get simulated training on GSM-R kit, anyway. A few will have done it in a proper GSM-R training suite, but not many.

 

[Bishopstone]

So yesterday i had an "On Board Supervisor" on board a Gatwick Express service. When we left Gatwick Airport he made an announcent saying "Good Evening. This is the On Board Supervisor. This train is the Gatwick Express service to London Victoria calling at London Victoria only". But he spent the entire journey sitting hiding away in the rear cab. Not once did he leave the rear cab or walk through the train or check tickets.

Although to be fair, yesterday was a strike day so First Class was declassified and mutual ticket acceptance agreed between GatEx, Southern and Thameslink. So there would have been few, if any, ticket anomalies to deal with, and it was probably not the best day to go in heavy handed over minor discrepancies.

If/when the OBS job is fully rolled-out as intended, how many times might they be expected to pass through the train between (say) London and Eastbourne?

 

[AlterEgo]

So yesterday i had an "On Board Supervisor" on board a Gatwick Express service. When we left Gatwick Airport he made an announcent saying "Good Evening. This is the On Board Supervisor. This train is the Gatwick Express service to London Victoria calling at London Victoria only". But he spent the entire journey sitting hiding away in the rear cab. Not once did he leave the rear cab or walk through the train or check tickets.

How do you know he wasn't doing safety critical duties??? Ah, wait.

 

[tsr]

If/when the OBS job is fully rolled-out as intended, how many times might they be expected to pass through the train between (say) London and Eastbourne?

The legacy (but technically still advised) standard for conductors is that they should aim to see every passenger who boards the train. It is accepted that there are many occasions of the sort of overcrowding when this would not be possible, at least not in the first or last 20-30mins of a journey. It is also obvious that this would apply to an OBS if a similar standard of service was recommended.

The fact of the matter is that it is still perfectly possible to walk through many trains which range from quiet to busy, not overcrowded. Often the reason this is not done is due to the extremely limited nature of dispatch positions on many stock formations, even with one panel per coach on much of the Southern stock operated by conductors. There are certain lines of route where OBSs are proposed which only have a few coaches with feasible dispatch positions on any 6-12 coach train. These include the Horsham and East Grinstead routes, especially in the Down directions on both routes, for example. Short trains of 3-5 coaches are not the norm on these routes. Other lines of route have similar issues. Conductors would be affected by this. OBSs would not, in general.

As and when conductors become OBSs, and when they can use any panel for "customer service" duties such as PA announcements and CCTV, I can see requirements to walk through and see as many passengers as possible being re-introduced and more rigorously monitored. In fact, quality control measures should be statistically picking up on this sort of thing, or at least they did up until a few months ago. Obviously there are always a few people who won't do the job correctly and need retraining or more rigorous stimuli to get them to actually do the job; this applies in almost any industry. However, I can say from my experience that walking through a train is much more interesting than standing still in one spot, with a lot more job satisfaction to be had, whether it's fixing faults or speaking to passengers, let alone ticket checking (often the two do not actually go hand-in-hand, no matter how it may seem to the casual observer; ticket checking can introduce confrontation where just walking through and chatting to people will reduce it - and it can also slow down the patrol of the train).

With regards the Eastbourne route, I should imagine the ideal standard would be for the OBS to pass through the train at least two or three times, unless they are tied up with queries or difficult situations, which of course will still be an issue affecting their visibility anyway. The passenger load may not completely change over, but there are plenty of major stations with high levels of boarding and alighting on a route like that.

With regards the GX situation, I am curious as to how our honourable forumite could tell that the person in the rear cab was the OBS assigned to the train and indeed the one making a PA announcement (not something you can readily observe from the saloon of a 387!). GX OBSs wear a fairly distinctive uniform so no doubt it was quite probably a member of staff, but could there have been another OBS on the train somewhere, who perhaps got stuck with helping a few passengers, or needed to get a huge amount of luggage from the aisle to walk through... or... (you get the idea)?

Once GTR have managed to build up a larger base of OBS staff (assuming they do, which to be honest I think they will, in one way or another) I should imagine these sorts of issues will be targeted in some way, if not ironed out...

 

[swt class 450]

The legacy (but technically still advised) standard for conductors is that they should aim to see every passenger who boards the train. It is accepted that there are many occasions of the sort of overcrowding when this would not be possible, at least not in the first or last 20-30mins of a journey. It is also obvious that this would apply to an OBS if a similar standard of service was recommended.

The fact of the matter is that it is still perfectly possible to walk through many trains which range from quiet to busy, not overcrowded. Often the reason this is not done is due to the extremely limited nature of dispatch positions on many stock formations, even with one panel per coach on much of the Southern stock operated by conductors. There are certain lines of route where OBSs are proposed which only have a few coaches with feasible dispatch positions on any 6-12 coach train. These include the Horsham and East Grinstead routes, especially in the Down directions on both routes, for example. Short trains of 3-5 coaches are not the norm on these routes. Other lines of route have similar issues. Conductors would be affected by this. OBSs would not, in general.

As and when conductors become OBSs, and when they can use any panel for "customer service" duties such as PA announcements and CCTV, I can see requirements to walk through and see as many passengers as possible being re-introduced and more rigorously monitored. In fact, quality control measures should be statistically picking up on this sort of thing, or at least they did up until a few months ago. Obviously there are always a few people who won't do the job correctly and need retraining or more rigorous stimuli to get them to actually do the job; this applies in almost any industry. However, I can say from my experience that walking through a train is much more interesting than standing still in one spot, with a lot more job satisfaction to be had, whether it's fixing faults or speaking to passengers, let alone ticket checking (often the two do not actually go hand-in-hand, no matter how it may seem to the casual observer; ticket checking can introduce confrontation where just walking through and chatting to people will reduce it - and it can also slow down the patrol of the train).

With regards the Eastbourne route, I should imagine the ideal standard would be for the OBS to pass through the train at least two or three times, unless they are tied up with queries or difficult situations, which of course will still be an issue affecting their visibility anyway. The passenger load may not completely change over, but there are plenty of major stations with high levels of boarding and alighting on a route like that.

With regards the GX situation, I am curious as to how our honourable forumite could tell that the person in the rear cab was the OBS assigned to the train and indeed the one making a PA announcement (not something you can readily observe from the saloon of a 387!). GX OBSs wear a fairly distinctive uniform so no doubt it was quite probably a member of staff, but could there have been another OBS on the train somewhere, who perhaps got stuck with helping a few passengers, or needed to get a huge amount of luggage from the aisle to walk through... or... (you get the idea)?

Once GTR have managed to build up a larger base of OBS staff (assuming they do, which to be honest I think they will, in one way or another) I should imagine these sorts of issues will be targeted in some way, if not ironed out...

I was sitting in the rear (12th) coach of a 12 coach 387 and about three or four minutes before departure from Gatwick Airport he went in to the rear cab and then when we arrived at London Victoria he came out of the rear cab. He was wearing Gatwick Express branded uniform. Yes maybe youre right. I cant be 100% sure that he was the OBS but i didnt see anyone else when i walked alongside the length of the train when i alighted at London Victoria. Do other staff normally travel in the rear cab of the train?

 

[physics34]

Thats what the Standard said last night. As you might expect GTRs lawyers were all over the ballot and it appeared that in one location it was possible that ASLEF members who didnt drive a passenger train might have been balloted or similar.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
An issue on the Uckfield line indicated why you need a second member of staff on board.

As we come through Cowden tunnel on the 18:06 ex LBG there was an announcement "Will the guard contact the driver please".

Nothing more was heard until we stopped at Ashurst which is not a timetabled stop. The guard announces that the signaller as asked the driver to stop there as the points ahead that give access to the single line are broken and we will be there at least 40 minutes. He says the doors will be opened to allow fresh air. If anyone knows Cowden it is not the place to be stuck on a train, with the added disadvantage of there is exceptionally poor mobile signal. The guard also advises that there is nothing in the area, no pubs, shops or anything.

As it happened I drove to Eridge this morning so my car was there. I also have a fold up bike. I discussed with friends the options of cycling to Eridge to get the car but concluded it was too hilly on a fold up!

After about 15 minutes the Driver asked the guard to contact him again. However the guard obviously didnt presumably as the guard was on the platform dealing with passengers. The driver then announces that the train is terminating here at Ashurst and replacement buses are on order!

Definitely want one doesnt want! I got on my bike and cycled to Eridge meeting the Network Rail engineering crew going the other way down a narrow lane! When I got to Eridge I took the car back to Ashurst to oick up a friend. It was now over an hour since we had come to a halt and by the time I got there a coach had arrived.

As it happened my friend had a seat on the coach but the coach was full with quite a few passengers wanting to be on it! I shouted out offering 4 people a lift back to Crowborough which reduced the queue a bit. I understand the coach driver squeezed a few more on but he still had to leave 12 behind. No idea how long they had to wait.

Just as I got back to Crowborough at about 20:40 the line reopened and the northbound train stuck there left heading north. At that time the coach was on the outskirts of Tunbridge Wells heading to Eridge.

Its the second time I have been thrown off that service on a Friday evening, the last time being at Hever. The rural stations are not made for these numbers of people, there is no mobile reception and no where for the passengers to wait, no pub etc.

The fact that the points have failed might not be Southerns or indeed Network Rails fault but it is not fair on the on board crew, or the replacement coach driver that they then have to put up with the ire of the passengers when detrained there. Not only that but the fact the line reopened by the time I eventually got back to Crowborough and I was in advance of the coach shows that terminating the train was the wrong decision.

It cannot be acceptable to abandon hundreds of people in the middle of nowhere and rely on enough them finding their own way home that the one coach you send is almost enough to cope.

There is a rumour that British Transport Police were called to the station, no idea when they got there, or where they had to travel from!

Whilst it is not ideal it appears to me that the only sensible solution is either for the train to stay with the passengers, alternative transport can be arranged, passengers can make their own arrangements but at least they would have somewhere safe warm and dry (it was trying to rain this evening) to wait. or for the train to return with passengers to Edenbridge. Edenbridge is a town there are facilities, pubs, street lighting, road access is better and rail staff can get to it more easily from Oxted.

Ha ha, i was driving the Northbound service stuck at Crowborough for so long. Needed pilotman working to get the through the bad points. Apparantly it was something to do with a generator failing...... it had just been pummled by a downpour.. (the first rain in a couple of weeks i believe). Must have been something to do with the weather.

There were only 8 people on my train, but im still grateful a guard was onboard.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I don't think they did give assurances about those things: they made an offer to the RMT to address those points in the hope of getting an agreement. But there was no agreement. All that the company has promised in the absence of an agreement is to maintain jobs and salaries until the end of the franchise.

How can they speak on matters AFTER the end of the current franchise. They could be in a position of NOT being awarded the next franchise, so legally, any such continuation of the maintenance of jobs and salaries will be a matter for the next franchisee to deal with.

 

[Bishopstone]

The legacy (but technically still advised) standard for conductors is that they should aim to see every passenger who boards the train. It is accepted that there are many occasions of the sort of overcrowding when this would not be possible, at least not in the first or last 20-30mins of a journey. It is also obvious that this would apply to an OBS if a similar standard of service was recommended.

Thanks - appreciate the detail you were able to go into.

As you say, not every 'pass through' requires (or should require) a ticket inspection, and indeed I can see some of the regulars getting annoyed if they are asked to 'show' two or three times on one train. Not every Guard/OBS will have a memory which retains 600 faces...

I consider three passes between London and Eastbourne to be quite sufficient, circumstances permitting. Obviously easier with a 4-car than a 12-car! Once between London and Gatwick; Gatwick and Lewes; Lewes and Eastbourne, say, checking new arrivals in First Class wherever possible, for as long as that product is sold.

I guess this may have been covered already - it's a long thread - but is it intended that OBS work in pairs, as RPIs did, on known 'trouble' trains such as late evening West Coastway services?

 

[infobleep]

Obviously easier with a 4-car than a 12-car! Once between London and Gatwick; Gatwick and Lewes; Lewes and Eastbourne, say, checking new arrivals in First Class wherever possible, for as long as that product is sold.

I guess this may have been covered already - it's a long thread - but is it intended that OBS work in pairs, as RPIs did, on known 'trouble' trains such as late evening West Coastway services?

Not unless the 4 should have been a 12 car. Lol

I would have thought they wouldn't want OBS staff working in pairs as that costs more money and they want to spend as little as possible.

Perhaps if it's too dangerous they can not have OBS staff on the train or remove the services from the timetable. Anything except employ more staff.

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

 

[Fincra5]

Thanks - appreciate the detail you were able to go into.

As you say, not every 'pass through' requires (or should require) a ticket inspection, and indeed I can see some of the regulars getting annoyed if they are asked to 'show' two or three times on one train. Not every Guard/OBS will have a memory which retains 600 faces...

I consider three passes between London and Eastbourne to be quite sufficient, circumstances permitting. Obviously easier with a 4-car than a 12-car! Once between London and Gatwick; Gatwick and Lewes; Lewes and Eastbourne, say, checking new arrivals in First Class wherever possible, for as long as that product is sold.

I guess this may have been covered already - it's a long thread - but is it intended that OBS work in pairs, as RPIs did, on known 'trouble' trains such as late evening West Coastway services?

Nope. All lone working, so I can't imagine many penalty fares issued.

I still fail to see how the OBS will improve customer service. They will be just the same as conductors bar dispatch (which takes all of 30secs tops).

So why not keep it safer with a conductor dispatching?

I see OBS's are currently on some GatEx trains, like those train hosts used to be for all of a few years.