Can Lewisham Vale Jct be improved?

[brad465]

As someone who's regularly traveled over this junction, on the Lewisham avoiding lines and used by passenger and empty stock changing from the relief to the main lines or vice-versa, the 15mph speed to crossover I think is too slow, especially on the high traffic line that it is which would increase hold-ups compared to faster crossovers (such as the 40mph reverse crossover just down the line towards Hither Green).

While I haven't seen any plans, would remodeling the junction by making it longer and smoother be possible? If it could be raised to 30-40mph trains would clear it faster, reducing journey times slightly for those that use it and, while not totally solving a hold-up issue, would reduce the number of such incidences, especially in peak periods. Another reason it could be done is the recent re-modelling of the crossovers at Chislehurst station to run at 40 instead of 20, plus remove the 60mph restriction for 70 all the way through is evidence junction improving is in Network Rail's agenda to some good extent.

Having seen the area many times if it could be done it wouldn't be easy, given a possession would be required, which despite having been done many times here (and Lewisham allowing some trains through), would be annoying given the many times the line has been closed giving all the London Bridge stuff and more. Also space is tight with the super-elevated curve before St Johns and the Hayes line link spur at the other end, but I think there would be enough room if signals were re-positioned.

Does anyone though if work for this has been considered?

 

[ComUtoR]

Lewisham is 20mph.

Personally I think the junction is pretty awesome. It gives you plenty of flexibility for routes and options for Cannon Street/Charing Cross/Victoria.

 

[brad465]

I'm talking specifically about the main line avoiding the station :roll:, though you are right in flexibility, though the diamond crossing doesn't make the flexibility covert to effective train frequency potential

 

[30907]

My guess (from a quick Google Earth check) is that the constraint is adjacent road underbridges. 15mph crossovers are relatively rare on the SR (lots of 20mph!) so there is likely to be a good reason.

 

[Bald Rick]

I suspect it could be possible. However, it is not a junction that would normally see much use for timetabled moves, particularly post 2018.

 

[brad465]

I suspect it could be possible. However, it is not a junction that would normally see much use for timetabled moves, particularly post 2018.

Is the "post 2018" factor due to Tfl's "every station policy". I think if it were Lewisham station and diamond crossing would need some major upgrade as anymore trains would make it more of a bottleneck than it already must be.

 

[ComUtoR]

I had a quick check of my route map and your talking about Parks Bridge

 

[Bald Rick]

I had a quick check of my route map and your talking about Parks Bridge

Indeed he is; Parks Bridge Jn US-UF and DF-DS.

Lewisham Vale Jn is the one between the Nunhead line and the Tanners Hill fly down. That is 20mph, and also very new (2013).
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Is the "post 2018" factor due to Tfl's "every station policy". I think if it were Lewisham station and diamond crossing would need some major upgrade as anymore trains would make it more of a bottleneck than it already must be.

Nothing to do with TfL. They are not involved at all.

 

[brad465]

Oh so it is Parks Bridge, I used Network Rails route map files to find an exact name but must have read it wrong.

 

[ComUtoR]

Is it safe to assume that your comment about non diagrammed moves is because if your coming up from Orpington on the fasts then you will stay on the fasts and continue the old way and then use the diveunder.

If your on the slow then that's where I get a bit confused. Staying on the slow drops you through St Johns and up via New Cross but I thought you said previously that New Cross will be going up to Cannon and not Charing Cross. So would that mean that Orpington > Cannon Street stoppers will only use the slow and drop round to St Johns and only the Charing Cross stoppers will then use Parks Bridge or are they going up via Lewisham and over Tanners Hill ?

Then I would indeed see that the crossover will be barely used and it clears another bottleneck. I think I'd prefer that as it separates the Mainline and the Metro better.

We have been using the 40 crossover quite frequently in all honesty

 

[Kentish Paul]

I had a quick check of my route map and your talking about Parks Bridge

No. Parks Bridge is the next one towards Hither Green and is 40mph. Lewisham Vale is just after you pass under the Nunhead line on the Lewisham avoiding line . It is 15mph because it all has to fit between two road underbridges.

 

[brad465]

Are crossovers not allowed to go over roads in this way then?

 

[hwl]

Are crossovers not allowed to go over roads in this way then?

Depends on the bridge and all bridges along the Lewisham avoiding route would need replacement decks to do this.

 

[Class 170101]

Is it wise to speed up this junction?

Wasn't this the junction that had issues and was, at least, partially out of action for an extended period due to specialist parts having to be constructed around the end of last year / beginning of of this year?

 

[hwl]

Is it wise to speed up this junction?

Wasn't this the junction that had issues and was, at least, partially out of action for an extended period due to specialist parts having to be constructed around the end of last year / beginning of of this year?

No that was Lewisham Jn with the monster 4track scissors

 

[louis97]

No. Parks Bridge is the next one towards Hither Green and is 40mph. Lewisham Vale is just after you pass under the Nunhead line on the Lewisham avoiding line . It is 15mph because it all has to fit between two road underbridges.

Parks Bridge is the junction you quote as Lewisham Vale and includes the connection towards Ladywell, the one you quote as Parks Bridge is Courthill Loop South Junction and includes the junction from Lewisham onto the slow lines. Lewisham Vale Junction is the junction where the Tanners Hill lines join the lines from Nunhead.

Note, the locations in brackets on the sectional appendix indicate the location mileage of the next junction on all the connecting routes - 'to/from x & y'.

 

[IanKR]

Parks Bridge is the junction you quote as Lewisham Vale and includes the connection towards Ladywell, the one you quote as Parks Bridge is Courthill Loop South Junction and includes the junction from Lewisham onto the slow lines. Lewisham Vale Junction is the junction where the Tanners Hill lines join the lines from Nunhead.

Note, the locations in brackets on the sectional appendix indicate the location mileage of the next junction on all the connecting routes - 'to/from x & y'.

Confused. Is there an online map that shows the name of junctions? Thanks.

 

[ComUtoR]

Confused. Is there an online map that shows the name of junctions? Thanks.

You can check the sectional appendix. The problem is that none of the maps are that clear at all.

Sectional Appendix :

LOR 130 SEQ 08

Shows St Johns and lists (Lewisham Vale) Which means its not shown on the map (if I'm reading that correct as it doesn't state that in the appendix) There is a change of speed at *5 75 and another at *6 19 and Parks Bridge is listed at 6 14 which places Parks Bridge after the 40 mph crossover. The Map is terrible and not to scale so can be difficult to read.

LOR 330 SEQ 01

Shows Lewisham Vale As its shown on that map. It places it where Bald Rick stated.

There is a 40mph crossover and a 15mph crossover. Personally I have always been taught and certainly consider that when you pass Courthill Loop on the fast or the slow that whole area is know as Parks Bridge.

I do have a much clearer map which came from Network Rail but it has always been passed around internally and I have never found it online so unfortunately I cannot share it.

 

[hwl]

Carto metro as the ideal introductory map?:


http://carto.metro.free.fr/cartes/metro-tram-london/

 

[ComUtoR]

Carto metro as the ideal introductory map?:

http://carto.metro.free.fr/cartes/metro-tram-london/

That puts Parks Bridge as the exit junction from Ladywell. Oddly that makes perfect sense.

Cheers for the link

 

[hwl]

That puts Parks Bridge as the exit junction from Ladywell. Oddly that makes perfect sense.

Cheers for the link

The tracks gradually evolved with all via Lewisham, the Lewisham bypass route, 4 tracking and the Lewisham - Nunhead link and several St Johns rebuilds over time so logical naming is probably out the window unless you know the history.

Hence Courthill North (dating from opening of Hayes Line) is much older than Parks Bridge which dates from the "bypass" opening (4?) decades later.

 

[Kentish Paul]

Confused. Is there an online map that shows the name of junctions? Thanks.

Have a look at the relevant Quail map.

 

[IanKR]

Carto metro as the ideal introductory map?:


http://carto.metro.free.fr/cartes/metro-tram-london/

Thanks very much.