Class 43 HST cascade fate

[Muzer]

Sad, sad, fantasy --- perhaps they could hire in some short swing link ones when they are freed up from other operators who run HSTs. Then they could run them down to Bournemouth again

 

[yorksrob]

The word on the tracks is that all 5 sets are due to get PRM'd in 2017/8 if the franchise extension deal (rumoured to be fairly imminent) goes through.

What does that mean exactly ?

 

[jopsuk]

The word on the tracks is that all 5 sets are due to get PRM'd in 2017/8 if the franchise extension deal (rumoured to be fairly imminent) goes through.

Does this mean full "chilternisation"?

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

The word on the tracks is that all 5 sets are due to get PRM'd in 2017/8 if the franchise extension deal (rumoured to be fairly imminent) goes through.

What does that mean exactly ?

Educated guess: any franchise extension would be more or less on existing terms so little likelihood of changes to the fleet. This would mean when the franchise is actually renewed there would be insufficient time to arrange replacements for the HSTs in time for the PRM deadline. So it would be hugely sensible for the the extension to include provision for upgrading the current HST fleet to full PRM standards, ie accessible doors, which is likely to mean Chiltern style power doors though modified non-powered doors could comply with the regulations, and sufficient provision of PRM friendly seats/places and accessible toilets. In any case I would expect the opening droplights to be replaced with sealed units.

 

[PHILIPE]

There is a thread here re Cascading of HSTs:-

www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=132567

 

[Harbornite]

The word on the tracks is that all 5 sets are due to get PRM'd in 2017/8 if the franchise extension deal (rumoured to be fairly imminent) goes through.

I've heard this too, and there's the possibility of more HST stock from Grand Central. However, this is all hearsay and not fact.
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There is a thread here re Cascading of HSTs:-

www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=132567

Perhaps the mods could merge the two threads?

 

[XCTurbostar]

Do you all think that the replacement with the next franchise will be almost certain or could more HSTs retake the place of Voyagers?

Thanks,
Ross

--

Note this topic is regarding CrossCountry's HST near future not the HSTs fate for replacement.

 

[yorksrob]

Educated guess: any franchise extension would be more or less on existing terms so little likelihood of changes to the fleet. This would mean when the franchise is actually renewed there would be insufficient time to arrange replacements for the HSTs in time for the PRM deadline. So it would be hugely sensible for the the extension to include provision for upgrading the current HST fleet to full PRM standards, ie accessible doors, which is likely to mean Chiltern style power doors though modified non-powered doors could comply with the regulations, and sufficient provision of PRM friendly seats/places and accessible toilets. In any case I would expect the opening droplights to be replaced with sealed units.

If that's the case, then good (although it would be a shame to lose the droplights. Not to hang out of them you understand - it's just the breeze can be pleasant sometimes).

 

[AndrewE]

Educated guess: any franchise extension would be more or less on existing terms so little likelihood of changes to the fleet. This would mean when the franchise is actually renewed there would be insufficient time to arrange replacements for the HSTs in time for the PRM deadline. So it would be hugely sensible for the the extension to include provision for upgrading the current HST fleet to full PRM standards, ie accessible doors, which is likely to mean Chiltern style power doors though modified non-powered doors could comply with the regulations, and sufficient provision of PRM friendly seats/places and accessible toilets. In any case I would expect the opening droplights to be replaced with sealed units.

Great, thanks. But what does PRM mean? Not Disability Act-related, but...?

 

[krus_aragon]

Great, thanks. But what does PRM mean? Not Disability Act-related, but...?

Persons of Reduced Mobility. The oft-cited Disability Discrimination Act has been supplanted by more recent legislation and requirements: this is where the term PRM comes from.

 

[najaB]

Great, thanks. But what does PRM mean? Not Disability Act-related, but...?

"Persons of reduced mobility" as I understand it.

 

[Clansman]

Chilternise the Mk3s, use the displaced DVTs from VTECs 225s and use 1 reworked power car on each set ot hire 68s rework the power cars on all sets. Job Done.

If only it were as simple as it is to type

Why is there a deadline for the HSTs? Is it more the power cars if anything?

 

[Harbornite]

Chilternise the Mk3s, use the displaced DVTs from VTECs 225s and hire 68s to cover. Job Done.

Or just keep the good 43s in service.

Why is there a deadline for the HSTs? Is it more the power cars if anything?

It's to do with the slam doors of the coaches.

 

[Clansman]

Or just keep the good 43s in service.
It's to do with the slam doors of the coaches.

I see now.

That seems ridiculous to have a replacement deadline if it's only for the doors. Take a leaf from Scotrail & Chiltern's book and utilise them to them max. Anything coming out of XC regarding their futures - I've seen nothing?
If only...

 

[Master29]

All of XC's fleet look that way on the outside (well, HST & Voyager - only seen a couple of their 170's but they looked grim too...) however, the XC interior on HST is generally good. Unlike a Voyager the MK3's are well lit and generally seem cleaner!

I don`t think the livery suits HST`s. May be why they look grubby externally but are very nice inside as others have pointed out.

 

[JamesRowden]

Chilternise the Mk3s, use the displaced DVTs from VTECs 225s and hire 68s to cover. Job Done.

If only it were as simple as it is to type

Why is there a deadline for the HSTs? Is it more the power cars if anything?

The simpler option might be 67s and Mark 4s.

 

[BestWestern]

It might be my eyes, but the XC HST examples I have seen are by far the worst condition examples I've seen.

It's the livery. Silver is never going to look clean, and the MK3s have a lot of dips and crinkles in their stressed bodysides, which collect dirt and then give a rather grubby appearance. Internally, I would suggest the XC fleet are the best HSTs of the lot.

 

[43096]

It's to do with the slam doors of the coaches.

No it isn't. It's the requirement for all stock to be modified to meet the PRM regulations from 01/01/2020. Mark 3s can be modified to be compliant without fitting power doors, though ScotRail (and any retained sets on GWR) are getting power doors because they have benefits in terms of safety (no open door/door on the catch incidents) and operational efficiency (shorter station dwell times).

 

[47802]

No it isn't. It's the requirement for all stock to be modified to meet the PRM regulations from 01/01/2020. Mark 3s can be modified to be compliant without fitting power doors, though ScotRail (and any retained sets on GWR) are getting power doors because they have benefits in terms of safety (no open door/door on the catch incidents) and operational efficiency (shorter station dwell times).

although they may not be the Chiltern solution as there is now a sliding door solution with is allegedly significantly cheaper.

I guess they will just do the minimum needed with this franchise until it is re-let.

 

[RichmondCommu]

The simpler option might be 67s and Mark 4s.

How on earth would they hope to keep to the current timetable?

 

[HSTEd]

Top and Tail them.
Maximum POWAH!

 

[JamesRowden]

How on earth would they hope to keep to the current timetable?

Loco sets could have 5 carriages to take the place of a single Voyager. Two loco sets would subsuquently allow a double Voyager to take the place of an HST

 

[43096]

although they may not be the Chiltern solution as there is now a sliding door solution with is allegedly significantly cheaper.

You can change "may" to "will"! My use of the words "power doors" was chosen to cover the fact that the ScotRail fleet will get sliding doors rather than the plug doors used by Chiltern. If XC went the same way, they would get the same modifications.

 

[jrh2254]

Yes**. And they quite often do when things go wrong (I travel on XC between DBY and EXD* quite frequently and always go for the HSTs if possible. I seem to be quite unlucky since nearly half the time I end up with a Voyager).

My understanding is that the HST paths allow more time because of the slower acceleration so Voyagers can do HST diagrams but not the other way round (if they are to keep to time).

When I do get an XC HST I always find them in very good condition internally (but maybe that's just 1st class).

* DBY=Derby, EXD=Exeter St. Davids

** I mean from the timing point of view, *not* from the point of view of them having enough Voyagers!

I'm betting the HST 'deadline' will be extended a bit, anyhow.

In XC HST standard class the condition is also very good with plenty of room and table seats. Also try and catch the XC HST rather than the voyager. If it's the voyager then invariably its 4 coaches which get full quickly and never enough table seats.

 

[AnonymousUser1]

What does that mean exactly ?

i'm guessing made to comply with the standards for accessibility required to remain in service after the cut -off date ... something which is none trivial for Mk 3 stock whether LHCS or HST trailers due to the slam doors etc ...

 

[sprinterguy]

Anything coming out of XC regarding their futures - I've seen nothing?

I can assure you that there is a plan, but no-one is allowed to say anything about it until the direct award is decided, so everyone will just have to wait until it is made public.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Top and Tail them.
Maximum POWAH!

The top and tail 68s on load four, as they're reputedly initially intended to be used on Transpennine, should be good fun.

 

[43096]

i'm guessing made to comply with the standards for accessibility required to remain in service after the cut -off date ... something which is none trivial for Mk 3 stock whether LHCS or HST trailers due to the slam doors etc ...

Slam doors on Mark 3s are not the issue with PRM compliance, as I posted above!

 

[MonsooN]

Looking through this thread and the one linked earlier it seems that a few extrta sets going to XC is a good idea.

I regularly travel between Newcastle and Bristol and I find the Voyagers cramped and uncomfortable and they get easily overcrowded - there are ALWAYS people standing - often for a long time if you get a train heading north from Bristol on the Friday afternoon. It's always a pleasure to see the HST approaching the station.

Is is possible that XC could use the HSTs on the busiest parts of the line (say between Bristol TM and Newcastle) and use the Voyagers for the more outlying parts of the network where there there may be fewer passengers?

 

[najaB]

Is is possible that XC could use the HSTs on the busiest parts of the line (say between Bristol TM and Newcastle) and use the Voyagers for the more outlying parts of the network where there there may be fewer passengers?

The issue there is the nature of the XC route - the trains that serve the outlying parts of the route (say Glasgow to Newcastle and Bristol to Plymouth) are the same trains that serve the core.

 

[sprinterguy]

Is is possible that XC could use the HSTs on the busiest parts of the line (say between Bristol TM and Newcastle) and use the Voyagers for the more outlying parts of the network where there there may be fewer passengers?

It's not really possible without a large scale restructuring of the current service matrix: There's already limited examples of Voyagers being used to strengthen the busiest services through the Crosscountry core, but with an HST, you'd have to turn the whole train back early rather than detaching a unit at, say, Bristol or Newcastle. The longest trains, such as they are, are already targeted at the busiest services, so without acquiring additional trains there seems to be little more that Crosscountry can do, more's the pity.

My heart always falls in dismay when I see yet another poxy four carriage Voyager unit round the corner into the platform, knowing how busy it will inevitably already be, but unfortunately such units make up the greater part of Crosscountry's fleet and it's worrying that, with ever increasing passenger numbers, this will probably continue to be the norm for another five years at least.