East-West Rail (EWR): Consultation updates [not speculation]

[petersi]

Ok me finding out of date info

 

[richieb1971]

This feel like Dad's gone to war and you don't know if he will ever come back home syndrome.

 

[TheKnightWho]

Please see others' later posts, which don't differ much from my cynicism.

What cynicism? You keep harping on about how it's not going to happen (calling it a basket case elsewhere if I remember correctly) - other posters are being realistic about timescale.

 

[richieb1971]

What cynicism? You keep harping on about how it's not going to happen (calling it a basket case elsewhere if I remember correctly) - other posters are being realistic about timescale.

This thread will have entries in it by people are not even born yet by the time the central section is complete. The planning stages take too long and in the past 50 years we have only had people rebuild/realign railways.

All the talk done so far is retractable. They say this and they say that, but ultimately its retractable. Which means zero commitment. Once the cynics in this thread see a point of no return, I think they will start believing.

 

[Lurpi]

This thread will have entries in it by people are not even born yet by the time the central section is complete. The planning stages take too long and in the past 50 years we have only had people rebuild/realign railways.

All the talk done so far is retractable. They say this and they say that, but ultimately its retractable. Which means zero commitment. Once the cynics in this thread see a point of no return, I think they will start believing.

There's a rather fundamental point which seems to have been overlooked or at least sidestepped so far.

Unlike Phase 2 of the western section, central government authority for the central section of EWR (Bedford-Cambridge) has not yet been given and government is not in a position to give it, because there's no defined project and no project cost to review the business case for, never mind a planning inspector's report.

In that context, the lack of spades in the ground looks a little less like grounds for despair to me.

 

[richieb1971]

I just wish we had a clear and defined timetable on these matters. Where the ticksheets are policed by the very top and late delivery beyond a certain point is financially punished. That government B cannot retract what government A has committed to without an obligation to go to war.

Because of what NR have done, the timetable has turned into a debacle. We have Azuma trains in the waiting and most converted to bi-mode, HST's and 91's with nowhere to go, GWR and Crossrail almost bringing everything else to a crawl.

I would also like to live in a world where government projects are not just budgeted but the breakdown of the costs/spending is available for public viewing. Because after all its our tax payers money paying most of the time.

Information about the EWR central section so far seems forced because no news has been forthcoming for absolutely years (since I found the website about 5 years ago). As far as railways go, big projects do seem undelivered by team GB.

Do we have delivery times for GWR electrification and Crossrail and does the end of these projects release the kind of resources we need for EWR?

 

[HowardGWR]

I just wish we had a clear and defined timetable on these matters............
Do we have delivery times for GWR electrification and Crossrail and does the end of these projects release the kind of resources we need for EWR?

We have -it's the Hendy Report. Have you not read it or been made aware of it?

You seem unaware of the CP5 and CP6 processes.

 

[swt_passenger]

We have -it's the Hendy Report. Have you not read it or been made aware of it?

You seem unaware of the CP5 and CP6 processes.

Some of the dates in the Hendy enhancements report have also subsequently been updated in a March 2016 update to the usual format of the enhancements plan. In a normal year we'd probably have had a June update by now (as it is nearly September!)

EWR phase 1 latest dates are March 16, but phase 2 is still last updated Jan 16.

 

[DarloRich]

We have -it's the Hendy Report. Have you not read it or been made aware of it?

You seem unaware of the CP5 and CP6 processes.

no - we live in a beyond fact environment so there is no need to read the actual timetable document. Today you just say what you think based on very little.

 

[richieb1971]

Makes no difference what is in the report if a meeting is to be held about subsequent delays. The report could say the railway will open tomorrow but it does not mean it will happen.

Anyway I googled "hendy report" and got a load of listings talking about it, but not actually going to it. Lots of talk about £679 million over budget or something.

Whatever it is, the EWR website makes no mention of it. I would expect any news to be on there.

 

[TheKnightWho]

Makes no difference what is in the report if a meeting is to be held about subsequent delays. The report could say the railway will open tomorrow but it does not mean it will happen.

Anyway I googled "hendy report" and got a load of listings talking about it, but not actually going to it. Lots of talk about £679 million over budget or something.

Whatever it is, the EWR website makes no mention of it. I would expect any news to be on there.

So you did a quick Google, couldn't find the report and heard some stuff possibly relating to EWR and therefore concluded you were probably right?

I've seen better academic rigour in a Reception class.

 

[HowardGWR]

So you did a quick Google, couldn't find the report and heard some stuff possibly relating to EWR and therefore concluded you were probably right?

I've seen better academic rigour in a Reception class.

It is puzzling why richieb1971 appears to be so ignorant, as he is a frequent poster here.

 

[richieb1971]

So you did a quick Google, couldn't find the report and heard some stuff possibly relating to EWR and therefore concluded you were probably right?

I've seen better academic rigour in a Reception class.

Western Phase 2 -

Well I found what I was looking for in the end. I'm so sorry I don't meet your highest standards of academic rigour.

 

[TheKnightWho]

Western Phase 2 -

Well I found what I was looking for in the end. I'm so sorry I don't meet your highest standards of academic rigour.

Or perhaps you could have just found it and dropped all the pointless scepticism, cynicism and sarcasm. You get as good as you give.

 

[richieb1971]

Or perhaps you could have just found it and dropped all the pointless scepticism, cynicism and sarcasm. You get as good as you give.

Not sure if your up to speed. But these are old timelines and the ones that are to be debated by a meeting between the investors and Lord Hendy (who is saying 2024 is now the goal).

Since absolutely nothing has been accomplished on the ground regarding phase 2, I highly doubt these timelines will be close to the reality.

I have every reason to remain cynical. and I will.

 

[The Planner]

Since absolutely nothing has been accomplished on the ground regarding phase 2, I highly doubt these timelines will be close to the reality.

I have every reason to remain cynical. and I will.

Suggest you read up on GRIP, you wont be putting a spade in the ground until after GRIP4. It is still option selection, feasibility and integration with HS2 currently.

 

[TheKnightWho]

Not sure if your up to speed. But these are old timelines and the ones that are to be debated by a meeting between the investors and Lord Hendy (who is saying 2024 is now the goal).

Since absolutely nothing has been accomplished on the ground regarding phase 2, I highly doubt these timelines will be close to the reality.

I have every reason to remain cynical. and I will.

Have you even seen the recently published document that covers route selection? Do you even understand how the GRIP process works, or do you think there'll be spades in the ground by December? Because that timeline states 2019 for the start of GRIP 5, and even then that'll only be preparatory work as the detailed design is done, with GRIP 6 being main construction.

 

[DarloRich]

Not sure if your up to speed. But these are old timelines and the ones that are to be debated by a meeting between the investors and Lord Hendy (who is saying 2024 is now the goal).

Since absolutely nothing has been accomplished on the ground regarding phase 2, I highly doubt these timelines will be close to the reality.

I have every reason to remain cynical. and I will.

sadly you still don't seem to understand or grasp what is going on. You seem to be getting yourself very confused. Please read the Hendy report and do some googling about what GRIP is and how it works. Fee free to ask any questions about it once you have.

 

[richieb1971]

Quote -

"However, Cllr Rodney Rose, deputy leader of Oxfordshire County Council and chair of the East West Rail Consortium, which represents the councils involved, told RTM: “It’s already going up to 2024 and that might slip a bit now. I’m getting very concerned about it. It’s a bit of a blow to the local authorities that have put money in.”"

Like I said, the meeting with Lord Hendy is about it slipping beyond CP6.

But your right I didn't know what each CP represented or how many there were.

So to prove that I am aware of that process, here they are -

1) Output definition
2) Feasibility
3) Option selection
4) Single option development
5) Detailed design
6) Construction test and commission
7) Scheme hand back
8) Project close out

 

[The Planner]

In which case you will now understand why "nothing has been accomplished on the ground".

 

[swt_passenger]

But your right I didn't know what each CP represented or how many there were.

So to prove that I am aware of that process, here they are -

1) Output definition
2) Feasibility
3) Option selection
4) Single option development
5) Detailed design
6) Construction test and commission
7) Scheme hand back
8) Project close out

Grip stages above are planning milestones. The sixth stage above would be referred to as Grip 6, which must not be confused with CP6.
CP means Control Period. These reflect the DfT's 5 year plans, such as CP5 2014-2019, and CP6 2019-2024 etc.

 

[richieb1971]

Yes I get it now. CP is control period which is a term (or range of dates). In this case CP6 is 2019-2024.

And GRIP6 is when the manipulation of earth, structures and surroundings take place.

And although my original comments were misaligned with yours and I caused misunderstandings, the Lord Hendy meeting is about this project slipping beyond CP6 which is why I was upset (even though I didn't know what it meant in principle). I can't be the one only one here expressing feelings. If the timetable is re-jigged to accommodate further delays then thats a worry, because the MML, HS2, GWR issues were already known quantities at the time this phase 2 plan was printed (Jan 2016).

 

[snowball]

Lord Hendy

Has he had another promotion?

 

[Bald Rick]

I think we need to be realistic here.

EWRail Aylesbury / Bicester to Bletchley was initiated specifically on the basis of major funding commitments from local authorities and developers on the basis of a contribution of something in the region of £1000-2000 per new home, with 200,000 new homes planned in the area served by the line over a couple of decades.

The EW consortium had an objective to facilitate that funding, and the financing of that funding. I can tell you from current experience on other projects that finding finance for that quantity of funding up front, in that sort of arrangement is difficult, and expensive.

Then a few budgets ago, it was announced that Government would fund it up front, but that (I assume) was on the basis that it would be repaid by the local authorities / developers.

I suspect that that is where the problem lies in progress.

 

[Blamethrower]

I think we need to be realistic here.

EWRail Aylesbury / Bicester to Bletchley was initiated specifically on the basis of major funding commitments from local authorities and developers on the basis of a contribution of something in the region of £1000-2000 per new home, with 200,000 new homes planned in the area served by the line over a couple of decades.

The EW consortium had an objective to facilitate that funding, and the financing of that funding. I can tell you from current experience on other projects that finding finance for that quantity of funding up front, in that sort of arrangement is difficult, and expensive.

Then a few budgets ago, it was announced that Government would fund it up front, but that (I assume) was on the basis that it would be repaid by the local authorities / developers.

I suspect that that is where the problem lies in progress.

I tend to agree, developers are notoriously hard to tie down to the commitments they make. At Wixams they were promised a station, where I live they tried to build an extra 500 house on what should remain a country park, they never install fibre broadband first off. Essentially they do everything for as cheap as possible, to take as long as possible so the asset they're building appreciates, despite being made in the cheapest way possible.

If EWR are relying on this then this project will never be completed

 

[MarkRedon]

An extraordinarily optimistic headline accompanies a news item reporting the purchase of land for a railway station for Winslow:

Wait almost over as Winslow train station plans steam ahead

The optimistic flavour of the piece is well illustrated by this quote:

Bucks County Council has bought land for the station on the outskirts of the town for £900,000. It will form part of East West Rail which will connect Aylesbury, Milton Keynes, Oxford and Bedford. Facilities on the 2.5 acre site will include a station building, passenger’s car park and public transport hub. The original Winslow Train Station closed to passengers on New Year’s Day 1968 and the final train passed through the town in 1993. The new station is due to be up and running by 2019.

Read more at: http://www.buckinghamtoday.co.uk/ne...low-train-station-plans-steam-ahead-1-7567538

2019 is of course hopelessly optimistic. Has any news on the likely further delays to phase 2 yet emerged from the delivery board?

 

[route:oxford]

2019 is of course hopelessly optimistic. Has any news on the likely further delays to phase 2 yet emerged from the delivery board?

Not really...

There could quite readily be a brand new effectively operational station and car park built on the site long before the track is laid.

 

[CdBrux]

Not really...

There could quite readily be a brand new effectively operational station and car park built on the site long before the track is laid.

That'll be useful!

 

[philjo]

Presumably the build project for that station would be quicker (& cheaper) to complete than comparable other new stations as it could be done without the contraints of a live railway.
i.e. can be built during normal hours without having to stop each day to allow trains to run through!

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Not really...

There could quite readily be a brand new effectively operational station and car park built on the site long before the track is laid.

I'm struggling to understand how a station could be 'effectively operational' if there's no track!