22 class 185 units being released by TPE - Where could they go?

[YorkshireBear]

Basically, this thread is about 22 pages of "why Class 185s are not very useful outside of the TP North Mainline".

I think that is exactly what it is.

Should serve as a lesson to the problems with building relatively bespoke units. Works sometimes but this is the risk.

Or if they are bespoke make it easy and cheap to change!

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I think that is exactly what it is.

Should serve as a lesson to the problems with building relatively bespoke units. Works sometimes but this is the risk.

Or if they are bespoke make it easy and cheap to change!

At the time they were ordered, there was little prospect of the TransPennine Main Line being electrified, so it was probably safe to assume at that point that they'd live out their 35 year lives on that route.There definitely should have been a second middle car ordered for some/all of them though.

 

[northwichcat]

I think that is exactly what it is.

Should serve as a lesson to the problems with building relatively bespoke units. Works sometimes but this is the risk.

Or if they are bespoke make it easy and cheap to change!

Or is it ordering trains only compatible with others from the same manufacturer? You can have a 319+323 formation or a 158+170 formation if you want but a 185 can't run in multiple with anything.

 

[Haydn1971]

Also, are the 185s that bespoke ?

 

[Philip Phlopp]

Also, are the 185s that bespoke ?

No. They have the same drivetrain as the Class 180 units, Cummins QSK19R engine and Voith t312bre hydraulic transmission, it's their weight which is the issue, and not the design itself.

 

[Haydn1971]

So what makes them so heavy ?

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Or is it ordering trains only compatible with others from the same manufacturer? You can have a 319+323 formation or a 158+170 formation if you want but a 185 can't run in multiple with anything.

The alternative was probably another large (60 3-car units) order of 170s - the ultimate example of "Jack of all trades, master of none".

 

[northwichcat]

The alternative was probably another large (60 3-car units) order of 170s - the ultimate example of "Jack of all trades, master of none".

Or asking Siemens for something compatible with existing DMUs but then First/Kelios were expecting an all new fleet so weren't interested in paying more (via leasing costs) for trains compatible with other DMUs.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Or asking Siemens for something compatible with existing DMUs but then First/Kelios were expecting an all new fleet so weren't interested in paying more (via leasing costs) for trains compatible with other DMUs.

Of course if they could've worked with 170s it would have been useful but as you say, the TOC were expecting a uniform fleet of 56(?) units until the DfT stuck their oar in... :roll:

 

[pompeyfan]

Would they not be more suitable e.g Waterloo to Exeter St David's or Cardiff/Bristol to Portsmouth Harbour/Brighton services?

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I'd have thought any capacity would be useful? Put ASDO beacons down and run them as 6 coach units up and down the line between Portsmouth and Cardiff. With their better acceleration you MIGHT (unlikely I know) be able to tighten them up and run them at line speed. The 158s are timetabled to run at 150 times.

 

[Clansman]

Well, that's pretty decisive! Thanks

Apologies if I came across as a bit serious there - reading it back I think I got carried away lol

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Judging by the way this thread is going could we end up with no TOC wanting them and them either going abroad or even getting scrapped? I would imagine it would cost way to much to be even remotely economically viable to convert them to electric Desiros

 

[Clansman]

Judging by the way this thread is going could we end up with no TOC wanting them and them either going abroad or even getting scrapped? I would imagine it would cost way to much to be even remotely economically viable to convert them to electric Desiros

Even if they had been 4 car sets they would've had a better chance of finding somewhere or proposing a more logical idea easier. It blows me away that someone thought that 280 odd seats on a commuter journey through one of England's busiest route (let alone the North), which was probably operated by 4 or 5 Mk(X) coaches before hand.

 

[Whistler40145]

It was a bit shortsighted that 185s are unable to couple to other DMUs.

 

[Iskra]

Even if they had been 4 car sets they would've had a better chance of finding somewhere or proposing a more logical idea easier. It blows me away that someone thought that 280 odd seats on a commuter journey through one of England's busiest route (let alone the North), which was probably operated by 4 or 5 Mk(X) coaches before hand.

It was 2 and 3 car 158's that replaced LHCS from when they were newly built: a decision made around 20-25 years ago, probably when the route was in decline. So with the massive increase in frequency of services there has been a net increase of seats. However, the new trains and better service level and general rail Renaissance have attracted a lot more customers to the TPE core. I don't think anyone could have predicted that, and I certainly don't think TPE are to blame; I say that as someone who experiences inadequate 3-car 185's through the core frequently.

I think the surplus 185's will end up with either ATW or Northern; both desperately need capacity and they can remain based at Manchester.

 

[ld0595]

It was a bit shortsighted that 185s are unable to couple to other DMUs.

Forgive my naivety since I'm quite new to this, would it not be possible to convert the units and couplings in a similar way that Southern did with the 170s from Scotrail? If not, what additional work would need to be done or would it just be impossible from the start?

 

[D365]

I would imagine it would cost way to much to be even remotely economically viable to convert them to electric Desiros

Does that even need to be said?

 

[Clansman]

Forgive my naivety since I'm quite new to this, would it not be possible to convert the units and couplings in a similar way that Southern did with the 170s from Scotrail? If not, what additional work would need to be done or would it just be impossible from the start?

Not to worry.

On the coupler side of things - they can be easily swapped over with a little bit of work, and I can't imagine the 185s having different couplers from other TOC fleets being a huge obstacle if they were to cascade.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Apologies if I came across as a bit serious there - reading it back I think I got carried away lol

No problem, I knew it was a bit wibble-tastic when I asked! I'll react similarly the next time someone suggests putting them on Liverpool to Norwich or Waterloo to Exeter, no doubt!

 

[The Ham]

No problem, I knew it was a bit wibble-tastic when I asked! I'll react similarly the next time someone suggests putting them on Liverpool to Norwich or Waterloo to Exeter, no doubt!

Given that the problem with 185's being used by SWT's is only a capacity one (other than the cost of setting up a depot), I think that we could be surprised as some could potentially be used on less busy services to enable the running of more 10 coach 158's/159's during the peaks and/or more services beyond Salisbury to Yeovile.

As a train leaving Waterloo at about 07:30 wouldn't be ready to leave Waterloo again, having gone to Yeovile, until 13:00 and then if it ran to Exeter, it wouldn't be ready to leave London again until about 21:30. As such capacity wouldn't be a problem.

If it was run as a 6 coach train all the way (so no splitting) then the lack of through connection between units becomes less of a problem.

That's not to say that is what would happen (not least as it would only use some of the 22 units, even with the Salisbury 6 services being run with 185's it may only need up to half the spare fleet), rather it's not as cut and dry as Liverpool Norwich.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

How much difference in weight would there be if they were converted from having a physical transmission to a DEMU design (presumably it would require either new bogies or a variant of class 350 bogies)?

 

[IanXC]

How much difference in weight would there be if they were converted from having a physical transmission to a DEMU design (presumably it would require either new bogies or a variant of class 350 bogies)?

Weight of the unit or weight of the bill?

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Weight of the unit or weight of the bill?

Weight of the unit. I doubt it'll ever happen anyway as any TOC will likely go for a new build anyway

 

[Kite159]

Given that the problem with 185's being used by SWT's is only a capacity one (other than the cost of setting up a depot), I think that we could be surprised as some could potentially be used on less busy services to enable the running of more 10 coach 158's/159's during the peaks and/or more services beyond Salisbury to Yeovile.

As a train leaving Waterloo at about 07:30 wouldn't be ready to leave Waterloo again, having gone to Yeovile, until 13:00 and then if it ran to Exeter, it wouldn't be ready to leave London again until about 21:30. As such capacity wouldn't be a problem.

If it was run as a 6 coach train all the way (so no splitting) then the lack of through connection between units becomes less of a problem.

That's not to say that is what would happen (not least as it would only use some of the 22 units, even with the Salisbury 6 services being run with 185's it may only need up to half the spare fleet), rather it's not as cut and dry as Liverpool Norwich.

Just how long do you think it takes to get to Exeter?

Using the current timetable for an example, the 08:20 from Waterloo will reach Yeovil Junction around 10:38 and Exeter for 11:42

That service will depart to sidings at St Davids before returning to form the 12;25 to Waterloo arriving at around 15:49, departing again as the 16:20 (this service will tend to join up with another 159 at Salisbury from Bristol and a 158 from the depot)

West of Salisbury the only stations which can't take a 6 coach is Feniton & Tisbury

 

[FQTV]

It was 2 and 3 car 158's that replaced LHCS from when they were newly built: a decision made around 20-25 years ago, probably when the route was in decline. So with the massive increase in frequency of services there has been a net increase of seats. However, the new trains and better service level and general rail Renaissance have attracted a lot more customers to the TPE core. I don't think anyone could have predicted that, and I certainly don't think TPE are to blame; I say that as someone who experiences inadequate 3-car 185's through the core frequently.

I think the surplus 185's will end up with either ATW or Northern; both desperately need capacity and they can remain based at Manchester.

The provisions of the 2007 White Paper would have strengthened the 185s to four car. That was nine years ago. The decision to drop those plans in 2009 would therefore appear to have done us out of a >33% capacity uplift and a more usable unit to cascade in future.

Who knows, the extra capacity may even have driven ridership and not ultimately addressed overcrowding in the core, but lead to the new TPE franchise and rolling stock orders having been even more ambitious, having driven growth and modal shift.

 

[Iskra]

The provisions of the 2007 White Paper would have strengthened the 185s to four car. That was nine years ago. The decision to drop those plans in 2009 would therefore appear to have done us out of a >33% capacity uplift and a more usable unit to cascade in future.

Who knows, the extra capacity may even have driven ridership and not ultimately addressed overcrowding in the core, but lead to the new TPE franchise and rolling stock orders having been even more ambitious, having driven growth and modal shift.

Quite possibly, but it was the DFT who made that decision, not TPE.

TBH if we'd have got 4 car 185's from the outset we probably wouldn't be in the pleasant position of today, where TPE is getting a shed load of new stock.

 

[edwin_m]

Not to worry.

On the coupler side of things - they can be easily swapped over with a little bit of work, and I can't imagine the 185s having different couplers from other TOC fleets being a huge obstacle if they were to cascade.

I think the problem would be not so much the physical coupling but the arrangements for multiple working. Bombardier inherited the Sprinter designs and just kept on producing similar multiple working controls for the 168s, 170s and 171s. So the same "signals" through the coupler control the same functions, and although they use different wires in the different classes that can easily be changed.

I don't know what control logic and protocols Siemens use on 185s but I expect they are totally different, so it would need some sort of protocol converter software to allow them to multi with other classes. This isn't too difficult in technology terms, but imagine the amount of pass-the-buck that would take place if a 185 in multiple with something else had some sort of safety incident or simply wasn't reliable.

 

[northwichcat]

Quite possibly, but it was the DFT who made that decision, not TPE.

TBH if we'd have got 4 car 185's from the outset we probably wouldn't be in the pleasant position of today, where TPE is getting a shed load of new stock.

The plan was never for 4 car 185s initially, it was 56 x 3 car 185s for North TPE, South TPE and Manchester Airport to Barrow & Windermere, with the option to lengthen the 185s to 4 cars. The SRA planned to cut the order to under 50 x 185s but Siemens said the price per carriage would be higher so the SRA opted for 51 x 185s and making TPE also take on the Manchester Airport to Blackpool route.

 

[Bantamzen]

Basically, this thread is about 22 pages of "why Class 185s are not very useful outside of the TP North Mainline".

I'd throw my hat into the ring for the North-East "sub-franchise". It would allow 100mph ECML trains instead of Sprinters which currently eat up capacity between Morpeth and Newcastle by running low-acceleration 75mph trains on a 115 mph main line. Alternatively, the Northern Connect service from Middlesbrough - Carlisle, again, not eating up paths by getting a 90 mph Class 158, which doesn't accelerate anywhere near as well as a Class 185, which are already used on the line. Not too many Sprinter differentials around, so pretty useful all around.

I'd throw my hat in the Northern ring too. Middlesbrough - Carlisle is one obvious option, but aren't Northrn also going to be operating Leeds - Scarborough at some point? And as 185s run up and down there now that would be a second option for them too. And what about the S&C, are there many MU differentials on that line? Could 185s operate within 158 timings there too, if so the S&C would be another option.

 

[keith1879]

It was 2 and 3 car 158's that replaced LHCS from when they were newly built: a decision made around 20-25 years ago, probably when the route was in decline. So with the massive increase in frequency of services there has been a net increase of seats. However, the new trains and better service level and general rail Renaissance have attracted a lot more customers to the TPE core. I don't think anyone could have predicted that, and I certainly don't think TPE are to blame; I say that as someone who experiences inadequate 3-car 185's through the core frequently.

I think the surplus 185's will end up with either ATW or Northern; both desperately need capacity and they can remain based at Manchester.

I'm not sure that there has ever been a reduction in seats per hour over the pennines since BR removed the Griddle Car from the original Trans-Pennine sets. Currently there are 15 cars per hour in each direction between Leeds and Manchester and that goes up to 21 at one point during the evening peak.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

It was 2 and 3 car 158's that replaced LHCS from when they were newly built: a decision made around 20-25 years ago, probably when the route was in decline. So with the massive increase in frequency of services there has been a net increase of seats. However, the new trains and better service level and general rail Renaissance have attracted a lot more customers to the TPE core. I don't think anyone could have predicted that, and I certainly don't think TPE are to blame; I say that as someone who experiences inadequate 3-car 185's through the core frequently.

I think the surplus 185's will end up with either ATW or Northern; both desperately need capacity and they can remain based at Manchester.

Another point on this. The 1tph LHCS was replaced initially by 2tph Sprinters - but only as an interim until 158s were available. This was never a response to declining patronage - but an initiative to reduce costs and increase patronage. 158s were always crossing the pennines better than hourly.