Southern DOO: ASLEF members vote 79.1% for revised deal

[ainsworth74]

Nope! Wilkinson told the Transport Select committee he could not guarantee the roles wouldn't be axed.

My understanding is that GTR have said that they'll be there for the life of the franchise but they can't guarantee anything beyond that (reasonably enough they might not be the next franchisee!). Whilst Wilkinson has refused to guarantee that the DfT will specify that OBS should be provided in the next franchise.

This being a major sticking point for the RMT (understandably so).

 

[BRblue]

So you admit it's about RMT power and vested interests? So what if a manager posts, it's the flip side of the coin. That's if he is.

They'll be revenue and customer services roles, unless they don't wash their face.

All this talk about guards saving people from rapes is nonsense. The TOCs don't want guards getting involved, it means trains getting cancelled. The same reason the TOC wants flexibility with OBS, to avoid cancelling trains.

Some people won't be helped and spend all their energy shouting people like me down.

OBS and security guards on problem trains on some trains is a better option.

The RMT has fought the wrong campaign, they should have focused on customer service and the disabled. All this safety nonsense confuses the matter, especially on the doors, which makes the RMT look like throwbacks, especially with the class war nonsense.

ASLEF are on the usual money grab, they fought single manning for years until the cash was right, then all safety concerns went out the window.

Unfortunately in 4 days time the OBS role is in. You lost, too inward looking and you obfuscated all the messages. It's either confused the public or they are sick of both sides.

And this is the main reason this thread has quietened down and it's definitely the reason this will be my last post on this forum which is a shame as I try to help others where I can.
Some of the claptrap spouted on here is unbelievable and posters such as yourself and XDM continue to push this "it's not about safety argument" when in fact a lot of it is... If you are an ex bobbie you should know better and you need to take a long hard look at yourself for mis-leading other people in this regard.
As for XDM... he's like a broken record when it comes to championing the qualities of
GSM-R which still has limitations and can and indeed does fail.
I posted this #4796 on page 320 of this thread but obviously many on here probably refused to read it as it wasn't what they wanted to hear. Passengers self evacuating on to the track with the juice rail still live because of an incapacitated driver being the only safety critical member of staff on board will never be safe!
With the GSM-R fixed in the cab if the driver has to walk back 12 cars how can he be contacted?
I could come up with a whole list of why technology should be used alongside the good old fashioned human being but I would be wasting my time doing it here... a debate has two sides and I can see both sides of the argument... unfortunately a few of you will only see one side but that does no give you the right to refute the safety argument because it is like it or not a very relevant one.
For what its worth I believe the RMT have fought a very poor campaign regarding this issue and I'm pretty certain they will lose, and that's from a member and for the record I'm not a lefty socialist either!

 

[Harbornite]

Nope! Wilkinson told the Transport Select committee he could not guarantee the roles wouldn't be axed.

I think one of their early guarantees was that it was guaranteed to the end of the franchise, but I remember a recent set of proposals that had words to the effect of "after 12 months there will be an opportunity to review the role of the OBS" as well as a complete lack of any guarantees to the end of franchise. Cynical me says that the review will be a chance for Southern to offload them.

My understanding is that GTR have said that they'll be there for the life of the franchise but they can't guarantee anything beyond that (reasonably enough they might not be the next franchisee!). Whilst Wilkinson has refused to guarantee that the DfT will specify that OBS should be provided in the next franchise.

This being a major sticking point for the RMT (understandably so).

Not good. I'd be more supportive of DOO if there was a guarantee that the rail company would not axe the role of OBS.

What do XDM and Highdyke make of this?

 

[speedy_sticks]

There seems to be a deafening silence from people outside the following groups:

Former railway workers, current staff, left wing fanatics.

Tells you all you need to know.

So which group do I fit into?

You have absolutely no idea about the real world and what people have to put up with.

 

[speedy_sticks]

Re Scot rail DOO. Surely Aslef are collecting evidence to show how safe DOO is around Glasgow. 400 true DOO trains operating without fuss & as safely as the others.h

You wouldn't cope one week in a wheelchair

 

[Fincra5]

Yes indeed. After 12 Months there would be a "review" to the OBS role.

 

[AlterEgo]

So which group do I fit into?

"Posters on moderation".

 

[highdyke]

If you are an ex bobbie you should know better and you need to take a long hard look at yourself for mis-leading other people in this regard.

I also know you cannot win arguments like this when the company, ORR, DFT, RAIB all say it's safe with 30 years of experience. The Unions saying "You're wrong" just won't wash, nor will class war, jobs for life, or arguments over who operates the doors, when the Union ought to be getting the companies to use new technology and improving the system. Nor will attacking the company or government, or people here, or people on newspaper websites.

 

[Fincra5]

I also know you cannot win arguments like this when the company, ORR, DFT, RAIB all say it's safe with 30 years of experience. The Unions saying "You're wrong" just won't wash, nor will class war, jobs for life, or arguments over who operates the doors, when the Union ought to be getting the companies to use new technology and improving the system. Nor will attacking the company or government, or people here, or people on newspaper websites.

I believe you've fallen for the media ploy of "its about who closes the doors".

What amuses me is you've clearly not seen a sun bleached DOO camera (body mounted), in which you also have a narrow view of the train with blackspots.

 

[BRblue]

I also know you cannot win arguments like this when the company, ORR, DFT, RAIB all say it's safe with 30 years of experience. The Unions saying "You're wrong" just won't wash, nor will class war, jobs for life, or arguments over who operates the doors, when the Union ought to be getting the companies to use new technology and improving the system. Nor will attacking the company or government, or people here, or people on newspaper websites.

You crack me up... why do you keeping avoiding the main issue and not answer the questions we put to you?

I will make this simple for you... 2 questions which I and many others think you need to honestly answer.
1) Is GSM-R 100% reliable in all areas and in all situations?
2) Is DOO a less safe method of operation overall?

 

[highdyke]

You crack me up... why do you keeping avoiding the main issue and not answer the questions we put to you?

I will make this simple for you... 2 questions which I and many others think you need to honestly answer.
1) Is GSM-R 100% reliable in all areas and in all situations?
2) Is DOO a less safe method of operation overall?

1) No, but there are back ups - mobiles/SPTs.
2) There's no difference overall in my view.

But, the problem you have is it doesn't matter a hoot what I say, the ORR, RAIB, DFT, Company all think it's within reasonable risk, if not safer.

If you think otherwise, you must get your Union to do a peer reviewed scientific report, and you must prove the costs are worth it and not better spent on other things, else you are sunk.

 

[BRblue]

1) No, but there are back ups - mobiles/SPTs.
2) There's no difference overall in my view.

But, the problem you have is it doesn't matter a hoot what I say, the ORR, RAIB, DFT, Company all think it's within reasonable risk, if not safer.

If you think otherwise, you must get your Union to do a peer reviewed scientific report, and you must prove the costs are worth it and not better spent on other things, else you are sunk.

No, but there are back ups - mobiles/SPTs...
And as I have already said, if the driver is the only safety critical person on board and he is incapacitated who would be aware of an SPT?
And I'm not aware of many members of the public who would have the controlling signal boxes number in their mobile, thats if they have any service.... both of those would be about as much use as a chocolate teapot.

With regard to your second answer... I'm sure that will put the travelling publics mind at rest.:roll:

 

[highdyke]

Well as you know I don't support 1 person on a train in most situations....

Passengers don't need to know the number, they dial 999, the call is triangulated, immediately passed to railway control, who pass it to the signaller. Who has certain duties to make PA announcements, protection the of line and the signalling system/3rd rail/OHL will probably pick it up anyway.

Unlike you, I have witnessed this happen, and the emergency services came through quicker than any railway staff on the ground. But we knew what had happened anyway..This is all assuming the driver is incapacitated and it's not picked up via DSD and other equipment alarms and is extremely rare. So far about 12 billion passengers have been carried safely on DOO trains without this happening on the main line network. This excludes LUL.

 

[DT611]

I also know you cannot win arguments like this when the company, ORR, DFT, RAIB all say it's safe with 30 years of experience. The Unions saying "You're wrong" just won't wash, nor will class war, jobs for life, or arguments over who operates the doors, when the Union ought to be getting the companies to use new technology and improving the system. Nor will attacking the company or government, or people here, or people on newspaper websites.

The government saying something is safe that they have no intentions of ever undoing anyway, doesn't wash either. The unions are happy for companies to use technology where it benefits all. Using technology as a replacement for staff when that technology has a lot more problems and limitations is something the union should absolutely fight against. Technology has it's place as an extra aid in operating the train. It is not a good replacement over all for the gard, the fact it has been forced as a replacement on some routes and won't be undone doesn't mean it works in full.

But, the problem you have is it doesn't matter a hoot what I say, the ORR, RAIB, DFT, Company all think it's within reasonable risk, if not safer.

Yet they can't and haven't proved it's safer, because they won't be able to. They may be able to prove it meets the dot of their threshold on safeness, but as we know if they want to implement something they will regardless of whether it is correct or not.

If you think otherwise, you must get your Union to do a peer reviewed scientific report, and you must prove the costs are worth it and not better spent on other things, else you are sunk.

Not true. The fact the government always gets it's way at all costs is what will sink one. The union could produce report after report but as the government want driver only it will be implemented regardless.

 

[highdyke]

Given the weight of evidence that DOO is safe, no wonder. Not saying there aren't problems with it..

 

[DT611]

Well as you know I don't support 1 person on a train in most situations....

Passengers don't need to know the number, they dial 999, the call is triangulated, immediately passed to railway control, who pass it to the signaller. Who has certain duties to make PA announcements, protection the of line and the signalling system/3rd rail/OHL will probably pick it up anyway.

Unlike you, I have witnessed this happen, and the emergency services came through quicker than any railway staff on the ground. But we knew what had happened anyway..This is all assuming the driver is incapacitated and it's not picked up via DSD and other equipment alarms and is extremely rare. So far about 12 billion passengers have been carried safely on DOO trains without this happening.

So, someone wrings someone who wrings someone who then either has to wring someone else, or travel a bit to protect a stretch of line, meanwhile another train has crashed into the other quite possibly. Your anecdotal story doesn't really mean anything as we can't independantly verify it ever happened.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Given the weight of evidence that DOO is safe, no wonder. Not saying there aren't problems with it..

On the dot of safe isn't as good as safer i'm afraid. 2 people aboard a train is safer then 1, and as people pay enough for the service the least they deserve is that second person insuring the safest possible operation of the train. Even better, technology can be implemented along with the second fully trained person remaining on the train.

 

[BRblue]

Well as you know I don't support 1 person on a train in most situations....

Passengers don't need to know the number, they dial 999, the call is triangulated, immediately passed to railway control, who pass it to the signaller. Who has certain duties to make PA announcements, protection the of line and the signalling system/3rd rail/OHL will probably pick it up anyway.

Unlike you, I have witnessed this happen, and the emergency services came through quicker than any railway staff on the ground. But we knew what had happened anyway..

Unlike me?... who the he'll do you think you are I am astonished at your arrogance, you don't know me or anything about me!
You are coming across as a bitter, pompous tool and that is the reason I should of done exactly what I said and kicked this forum into touch... which I will now do!

 

[Harbornite]

Given the weight of evidence that DOO is safe, no wonder. Not saying there aren't problems with it..

Do you think that the OBS role should be axed as well? You didn't answer my earlier post.

 

[highdyke]

Unlike me?... who the he'll do you think you are I am astonished at your arrogance, you don't know me or anything about me!
You are coming across as a bitter, pompous tool and that is the reason I should of done exactly what I said and kicked this forum into touch... which I will now do!

Well you don't know anything about me either, so...
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Do you think that the OBS role should be axed as well? You didn't answer my earlier post.

I've said numerous times I'm not in support of that. The role can be justified on its own IMHO.

 

[Fincra5]

Do you think that the OBS role should be axed as well? You didn't answer my earlier post.

Thats a point... Why have an OBS and not a Guard Highdyke? Whats the benefit?

 

[highdyke]

So, someone wrings someone who wrings someone who then either has to wring someone else, or travel a bit to protect a stretch of line, meanwhile another train has crashed into the other quite possibly. Your anecdotal story doesn't really mean anything as we can't independantly verify it ever happened.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Well it did and numerous other things, but have it your way.

On the dot of safe isn't as good as safer i'm afraid. 2 people aboard a train is safer then 1, and as people pay enough for the service the least they deserve is that second person insuring the safest possible operation of the train. Even better, technology can be implemented along with the second fully trained person remaining on the train.

Ding ding and away? etc RSSB disagrees on that.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Thats a point... Why have an OBS and not a Guard Highdyke? Whats the benefit?

Flexibility, can be deployed on a wider area and you don't have to cancel trains if there is no second crew member, there are others.

Been through all of these numerous times. I'm not involved in this, it's not for me to spell it all out. Change your messages though, attacking people and so on isn't helping.

 

[theironroad]

Thats a point... Why have an OBS and not a Guard Highdyke? Whats the benefit?

Because highdyke is a Tory/ukip mp who is determined to reduce all workers into zero hours contracts workers with no employment rights.

If highdyke and his or her ilk have their way, we will return to the era of the Liverpool dockers having to doff their caps and turn up, and often be turned away at the dockyard gate each morning.

 

[Harbornite]

I've said numerous times I'm not in support of that. The role can be justified on its own IMHO.

Fair deuce. The reason why some staff are concerned is that GTR and DFT et al haven't shown long-term commitment to retaining the OBS role. Once this franchise is up, who knows?

 

[Domh245]

Flexibility, can be deployed on a wider area and you don't have to cancel trains if there is no second crew member, there are others.

But by that same virtue, they can be gotten rid of as soon as the TOC decides it wants a larger profit margin/DfT says so/etc. By removing the necessity of them being on the train, you are effectively signing the death warrant for the second member of onboard staff, who are now just a nice to have, and not a necessity.

 

[highdyke]

Because highdyke is a Tory/ukip mp who is determined to reduce all workers into zero hours contracts workers with no employment rights.

If highdyke and his or her ilk have their way, we will return to the era of the Liverpool dockers having to doff their caps and turn up, and often be turned away at the dockyard gate each morning.

Ah tin foil hat time again.

But by that same virtue, they can be gotten rid of as soon as the TOC decides it wants a larger profit margin/DfT says so/etc. By removing the necessity of them being on the train, you are effectively signing the death warrant for the second member of onboard staff, who are now just a nice to have, and not a necessity.

Well I hope people prove they are a valuable role and the job can be maintained.

 

[Domh245]

Well I hope people prove they are a valuable role and the job can be maintained.

As do I, but it is difficult to quantify passenger satisfaction in a way that accountants can understand. It's also difficult to try and fight the DfT when government is trying it's best to put on a show of power against the unions.

(other scenarios in which the OBS role is gotten rid of are available)

 

[theironroad]

But by that same virtue, they can be gotten rid of as soon as the TOC decides it wants a larger profit margin/DfT says so/etc. By removing the necessity of them being on the train, you are effectively signing the death warrant for the second member of onboard staff, who are now just a nice to have, and not a necessity.

....and this is the core of the issue. TOCs have very little control over costs, staffing costs are the one area they have some ability to cut costs. Rolling stoc, track access, service levels costs are all outwith TOC control but staffing is within their control.

Souter said many years ago that running a toc was just a glorified recruitment agency, controlling only staff, but not infrastructure or rolling stock requirements.

 

[highdyke]

As do I, but it is difficult to quantify passenger satisfaction in a way that accountants can understand. It's also difficult to try and fight the DfT when government is trying it's best to put on a show of power against the unions.

(other scenarios in which the OBS role is gotten rid of are available)

Totally get that, I'd make a note of revenue plus lots of other valuable things and make the case. Unfortunately there no is guarantees beyond the franchise, but striking is just ****ing people off. Gotta win hearts and minds on this..

 

[DT611]

Ding ding and away? etc RSSB disagrees on that.

good for them, but both technology and human working together would definitely be a lot safer then just technology with no fall back in times when it isn't up to the job. Drivers want the guard, much of the public want the guard, network rail i'm not sure but i would imagine they would want the guard, so it's retention must be fought for.

 

[Domh245]

Totally get that, I'd make a note of revenue plus lots of other valuable things and make the case.

Put a value (£) then on good customer service such as making announcements during disruption, helping passengers with connections/queries/etc. Until you can prove that economically the OBS makes money for the TOC (or at least doesn't loose money) then they have no reason to exist.

but striking is just ****ing people off. Gotta win hearts and minds on this..

Sure, although the hatred seems to be evenly spread between GTR and the unions (depending on where you are. On some very anecdotal evidence London and Brighton seem to side more with the unions, whilst the places in between side more with GTR).

I just find it a bit odd though that your main argument in favour of OBS is the same one that essentially guarantees that at some point in the future the trains will go fully DOO. Keeping the guard safety critical, even if it does mean making concessions like giving the driver full control of the doors, is the only way that you can guarantee that there will be that second member of staff on board in the future.