Southern DOO: ASLEF members vote 79.1% for revised deal

[Deepgreen]

They said no compulsory redundancies. I have seen documentation on the intranet site that states target numbers of Conductors and OBS combined is about 100 less than the current level of Conductors and RPI staff. However the company has gone on record to say the level will then be maintained for the length of the franchise.

Quite, and when HMG has got its way, they terminate the franchise asap under any possible performance failure clause (and in response to public demand), along with healthy pay-offs for top brass, and notwithstanding their recent re-definition of performance targets for GTR, and there go at least 100 people. Perhaps.

 

[Carlisle]

Talks between the RMT and Southern have broken down

Yes but the RMTs published settlement plan seems virtually in every sense identical to the Scotrail plan which Southern had already rejected anyway

 

[ainsworth74]

Quite, and when HMG has got its way, they terminate the franchise asap under any possible performance failure clause (and in response to public demand), along with healthy pay-offs for top brass, and notwithstanding their recent re-definition of performance targets for GTR, and there go at least 100 people. Perhaps.

I think that's perhaps a tad too cynical even for this forum! More likely they'll just demand their removal in the next franchise specification once the current one expires in 2021.

 

[hwl]

I think that's perhaps a tad too cynical even for this forum! More likely they'll just demand their removal in the next franchise specification once the current one expires in 2021.

Agree though I suspect they will retain a fair number for RPI type purposes. (And probably done shortly after 313 and 455 have been replaced with just 171s left needing conductors.)?
I don't think they will go down the compulsory route in the next franchise, I suspect they will let the numbers fall by not recruiting new ones.

 

[ModernRailways]

Talks between the RMT and Southern have broken down

So does this mean that some forum users may have been correct in thinking that Southern agreed to get back around the table to prevent too much further strike action knowing full well they wouldn't get a deal and it would be too late for the RMT to do anything?

 

[hwl]

So does this mean that some forum users may have been correct in thinking that Southern agreed to get back around the table to prevent too much further strike action knowing full well they wouldn't get a deal and it would be too late for the RMT to do anything?

Yes perfect timing if it collapsed today
It is almost if GTR have a dynamic game theory textbook and can use the contents.
GTR can say they tried to make some concessions but the RMT position hasn't moved so they have ticked the political boxes as well.

 

[Robertj21a]

Yes but the RMTs published settlement plan seems virtually in every sense identical to the Scotrail plan which Southern had already rejected anyway

That's rather weird, if true, as it suggests that the RMT knew that they would again be rejected. Does the RMT actually have some alternative agenda that we're not fully aware of ?

 

[ainsworth74]

Radical suggestion I know but perhaps both sides have an agenda and are trying to implement it?

 

[Carlisle]

That's rather weird, if true, as it suggests that the RMT knew that they would again be rejected. Does the RMT actually have some alternative agenda that we're not fully aware of ?

They signed a joint declaration with ASLEF recently against any further extension of DOO/DCD, and in doing so possibly believe, if it came to it, that a combined push can still win through for them in the end rather than having to opt for settlements similar to those they'd previously reached with C2C, London Overground, SE Javelins, and Scotrail A+B,

 

[XDM]

And South Eastern a couple of years ago. On Charing Cross to Gillingham trains via Gravesend the guard used to come aboard for the last lap from Strood to Gillingham. Then ASLEF agreed DOO all the way. RMT mumbled but were powerless to do anything.

 

[gavin]

More strikes could be on the way for southern after the talks broke down

 

[fgwrich]

After all this with GTRs Southern, What future do we reckon Govia have on the railways? Will they become so unpopular that they'll have to do a National Express and disappear into hiding or still continue to bid knowing full well GTR & Govia's brand is now tarnished further than Rupert Murdoch's News of the World?

 

[the sniper]

After all this with GTRs Southern, What future do we reckon Govia have on the railways? Will they become so unpopular that they'll have to do a National Express and disappear into hiding or still continue to bid knowing full well GTR & Govia's brand is now tarnished further than Rupert Murdoch's News of the World?

They're doing the dirty work of the state. They're doing it in the most ham fisted fashion possible, but the end goal will most probably be achieved.

I'll be surprised if they don't win the West Midlands franchise.

 

[XDM]

After all this with GTRs Southern, What future do we reckon Govia have on the railways?

Jeremy Corbyn is not yet PM,so 'Basket Case' RMT & ASLEF have at the moment zero influence on franchise awards. The public have some influence, but most of the influence & decision making power is with DfT. When Southern succeed they will have won a huge basket of accolades within DfT,quite rightly.

 

[Robertj21a]

After all this with GTRs Southern, What future do we reckon Govia have on the railways? Will they become so unpopular that they'll have to do a National Express and disappear into hiding or still continue to bid knowing full well GTR & Govia's brand is now tarnished further than Rupert Murdoch's News of the World?

Of course, Govia is only doing what was required of them in the franchise, so I can't see that they will have any problems bidding for more.

 

[ComUtoR]

Then ASLEF agreed DOO all the way.

Gill <> Strood was always part of the original agreement. It was neither considered an extension or new.

 

[cjmillsnun]

Radical suggestion I know but perhaps both sides have an agenda and are trying to implement it?

No **** Sherlock.

Sadly GTR have won. They can now implement their plans and strikes for the most part don't matter as they can run services as DOO. The RMT have lost.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

After all this with GTRs Southern, What future do we reckon Govia have on the railways? Will they become so unpopular that they'll have to do a National Express and disappear into hiding or still continue to bid knowing full well GTR & Govia's brand is now tarnished further than Rupert Murdoch's News of the World?

Govia will get away with it. They will just remove any Go-ahead or Govia branding (a bit like FirstGroup are doing) and will carry on.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

More strikes could be on the way for southern after the talks broke down

They're meaningless. Those talks were the last chance saloon for the RMT.

 

[Carlisle]

No **** Sherlock.

Sadly GTR have won. They can now implement their plans and strikes for the most part don't matter as they can run services as DOO. The RMT have lost.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Isn't there still an ASLEF and TSSA ballot to come ? If so isn't it a bit early to claim GTR have won

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Isn't there still an ASLEF and TSSA ballot to come ? If so isn't it a bit early to claim GTR have won

I think the ASLEF one is just Gatwick express drivers. No idea as to the TSSA one

 

[Tomnick]

with the Strathclyde manning agreement trains still run without the 2nd staff member everyday and passengers of reduced mobility get left behind or over carried. Over 400 in the last 2 months alone. An unacceptable situation. The GTR obs role appears to be similar to the above.

Do you have a source for this (400 in two months) please? I don't doubt you in the slightest, I'd just like to quote it elsewhere .

 

[Carlisle]

I think the ASLEF one is just Gatwick express drivers. No idea as to the TSSA one

Ok cheers , didn't realise that

 

[craigybagel]

I think the ASLEF one is just Gatwick express drivers. No idea as to the TSSA one

Nope, southern and gatex.

http://www.aslef.org.uk/information/100012/144577/gtr_southern_and_gatwick_express__breakdown_in_ind/

 

[380101]

Do you have a source for this (400 in two months) please? I don't doubt you in the slightest, I'd just like to quote it elsewhere .

If you have twitter search for Kevin Lindsey, who is the ASLEF district organiser for Scotland. He has been collating the figures regarding DOO running without the 2nd staff member onboard. He tweeted the Scottish transport minister Humza Yusaf to remind him of the 400 trains without a 2nd staff member.

I have no idea how to add a link to twitter on here, sorry. But the figures are genuine as we, the drivers, report every DOO train that has no TE to our local union reps who advise Kevin Lindsey of the matter.

 

[Moonshot]

If you have twitter search for Kevin Lindsey, who is the ASLEF district organiser for Scotland. He has been collating the figures regarding DOO running without the 2nd staff member onboard. He tweeted the Scottish transport minister Humza Yusaf to remind him of the 400 trains without a 2nd staff member.

I have no idea how to add a link to twitter on here, sorry. But the figures are genuine as we, the drivers, report every DOO train that has no TE to our local union reps who advise Kevin Lindsey of the matter.

I actually read your post as 400 wheelchair passengers overcarrried etc..

So 400 trains in 2 months - which is pretty much 7 a day.

 

[Robertj21a]

If you have twitter search for Kevin Lindsey, who is the ASLEF district organiser for Scotland. He has been collating the figures regarding DOO running without the 2nd staff member onboard. He tweeted the Scottish transport minister Humza Yusaf to remind him of the 400 trains without a 2nd staff member.

I have no idea how to add a link to twitter on here, sorry. But the figures are genuine as we, the drivers, report every DOO train that has no TE to our local union reps who advise Kevin Lindsey of the matter.

It might do the cause more good if the figures were released to the general media. Tweeting won't get the message across to the wider world.

 

[XDM]

Re Scot rail DOO. Surely Aslef are collecting evidence to show how safe DOO is around Glasgow. 400 true DOO trains operating without fuss & as safely as the others.h

 

[Tetchytyke]

with the Strathclyde manning agreement trains still run without the 2nd staff member everyday and passengers of reduced mobility get left behind or over carried. Over 400 in the last 2 months alone. An unacceptable situation. The GTR obs role appears to be similar to the above.

At least in Strathclyde Abellio and Transport Scotland go through the charade of pretending that it only happens in "emergency" situations. I know that it doesn't, you know that it doesn't, the Pope knows that it doesn't, but at least they have the good grace to pretend.

GTR aren't even prepared to make that concession. That should tell you all you need to know about the expected life expectancy of the OBS role.

I think the ASLEF one is just Gatwick express drivers. No idea as to the TSSA one

ASLEF have been injuncted against balloting for strike action with Gatwick Express drivers and any drivers who may tangentially operate a GatEx service.

blah blah blah

Stop trying to astroturf Piero, we all know it's you.

 

[380101]

Re Scot rail DOO. Surely Aslef are collecting evidence to show how safe DOO is around Glasgow. 400 true DOO trains operating without fuss & as safely as the others.h

I doubt it. They did operate with fuss. Drunk passengers causingg disruption; wheelchair users over carried regularly; wheelchair users left at unmanned stations etc. It's about providing a service the company says it does, yet failing to do so.

DOO is a compromise on safety to maximise profits as recommended by the Mcnulty report. We all know it. I challenge any TOC manager advocating DOO to come and work a busy DOO service and keep to time whilst being 100% sure that it is safe to depart stations.

 

[Dave1987]

If XDM is railway management is anyone else finding it slightly depressing to see a manager openly gleeful at the prospect of a railway unions demise? The RMT may have many faults and their PR is shocking but they represent and defend their members rights and conditions. Even the DFT are at pains to deny they are trying to destroy the unions whether that is true or not.

 

[Monty]

If XDM is railway management is anyone else finding it slightly depressing to see a manager openly gleeful at the prospect of a railway unions demise? The RMT may have many faults and their PR is shocking but they represent and defend their members rights and conditions. Even the DFT are at pains to deny they are trying to destroy the unions whether that is true or not.

I suspect that he isn't, for most middle managers I know respect and appreciate the role the guard plays. And those that don't necessarily disagree with DOO probably know better than to openly gloat about it on a forum that is known to be monitored not only by TOCs but by the press. I would think he is purely doing it to get a rise out of users.