Southern DOO: ASLEF members vote 79.1% for revised deal

[Flamingo]

Re Scot rail DOO. Surely Aslef are collecting evidence to show how safe DOO is around Glasgow. 400 true DOO trains operating without fuss & as safely as the others.h

It's nice to see that with their company in the smelly stuff up to it's ears, a senior member of Southern management (if not Mr Horton himself) still has enough time on his hands to post frequent comments on this forum, instead of trying to sort out the mess they have created.

Shows that the priority is to talk a good game, not doing the job they get paid a very good salary to do.

Not exactly "putting customers first", is it? (To coin a phrase)

(I'll lay a pound to a penny that this will be another post XDM will not answer. He is not interested in interacting with the forum. His posts are much too "sound bite" and obviously designed to be quoted as "an ordinary passenger has posted in an online forum" to a meeting, committee, etc. as "showing the support Southern have".)

 

[Tetchytyke]

a senior member of Southern management (if not Mr Horton himself) still has enough time on his hands to post frequent comments on this forum

XDM claims to know quite a lot about what happened at London Overground a couple of years ago, although I suspect they are a crank.

If they're not a crank, and genuinely do know what happened at LOROL, I'm sure a quick look at LinkedIn will tell us which Southern senior managers did their graduate training scheme at TfL a couple of years ago...

 

[bnm]

Lots of playing the man rather than the ball here. Trying to unmask forum contributors is surely against forum rules.

Everyone, on either side of the debate, has the right to post anonymously. Suggesting ways to find real world personal information of forum contributors is surely a breach of the forum's privacy rules. How would rail staff contributors to this thread feel if they were publicly identified?

So what if XDM is Govia management? He or she has an equal right to post here and to do so anonymously.

Now, can we return to the actual issues?

 

[Wolfie]

After all this with GTRs Southern, What future do we reckon Govia have on the railways? Will they become so unpopular that they'll have to do a National Express and disappear into hiding or still continue to bid knowing full well GTR & Govia's brand is now tarnished further than Rupert Murdoch's News of the World?

I sincerely hope that GoVia and Charlie "Failure" Horton (and, if genuinely a railway manager, his lickspittle XDM) disappear and are never seen again anywhere near the railways....

 

[northwichcat]

GTR & Govia's brand is now tarnished further than Rupert Murdoch's News of the World?

You mean the News of the World which was replaced by a Sunday edition of The Sun from exactly the same company?

Govia could easily distance themselves from GTR problems in the same way as The Times wasn't affected by News of the World problems. Is the average LM or Southeastern passenger aware that Govia run their rail services? Even if Govia is tarnished as a brand they could simply stop using that name and refer to a Go-Ahead and Kelios joint venture instead which won't return lots of GTR results when people Google them.

 

[tony6499]

XDM claims to know quite a lot about what happened at London Overground a couple of years ago, although I suspect they are a crank.

If they're not a crank, and genuinely do know what happened at LOROL, I'm sure a quick look at LinkedIn will tell us which Southern senior managers did their graduate training scheme at TfL a couple of years ago...

I doubt the rule book and it's policy to use of social media etc will apply to them but they use it to sack Conductors, will be interesting if any of the cases get to tribunals and 'XDM' gets exposed at it

 

[Wolfie]

I doubt the rule book and it's policy to use of social media etc will apply to them but they use it to sack Conductors, will be interesting if any of the cases get to tribunals and 'XDM' gets exposed at it

Well, any barrister worth his salt will be asking for exactly that (oh, and any evidence that said individual's postings were officially sanctioned by the company of course) at an ET... a multitude of wriggly earth-residing creatures in a metallic container?

 

[Tomnick]

If you have twitter search for Kevin Lindsey, who is the ASLEF district organiser for Scotland. He has been collating the figures regarding DOO running without the 2nd staff member onboard. He tweeted the Scottish transport minister Humza Yusaf to remind him of the 400 trains without a 2nd staff member.

I have no idea how to add a link to twitter on here, sorry. But the figures are genuine as we, the drivers, report every DOO train that has no TE to our local union reps who advise Kevin Lindsey of the matter.

Thanks, found it. I've quoted Kevin Lindsay's posts in the discussion elsewhere (here, Facebook link if you're into all that and want to see an angry anti-union chap make an utter fool of himself), but time will tell how well it's received!

 

[JamesTT]

Why didn't the Scotrail drivers refuse to take these 400 trains with no second person?

 

[Deepgreen]

Lots of playing the man rather than the ball here. Trying to unmask forum contributors is surely against forum rules.

Everyone, on either side of the debate, has the right to post anonymously. Suggesting ways to find real world personal information of forum contributors is surely a breach of the forum's privacy rules. How would rail staff contributors to this thread feel if they were publicly identified?

So what if XDM is Govia management? He or she has an equal right to post here and to do so anonymously.

Now, can we return to the actual issues?

Quite. A forum is for airing views and exchanging information. The identity of any user is irrelevant unless they choose to make it so. There will always be opposing views - that's what debate is about. The other side of the coin is that any senior management viewing this forum will certainly glean a lot of information about professional and non-professional peoples' views and feelings on issues.

 

[ainsworth74]

Why didn't the Scotrail drivers refuse to take these 400 trains with no second person?

They can't as far as I'm aware. The second person isn't safety critical or required for the operation of the train as agreed so if they refused to take the train they'd be in breach of contract with their employer and could be subject to disciplinary action.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Why didn't the Scotrail drivers refuse to take these 400 trains with no second person?

They can't. The train is set up for DOO and can be legally and safely operated in DOO mode.

The second person- the Ticket Examiner- has no safety-critical duties. Their existence is only guaranteed as part of Abellio's contract with Transport Scotland. And if Transport Scotland can't or won't check up on Abellio...
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The identity of any user is irrelevant unless they choose to make it so.

And the particular individual chose to make it so when they attacked another forum member, an ex-LOROL guard, for a "fifty grand payoff".

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?p=2527687#post2527687

Yes but you got a £50,000 pay off from Silverlink too & a new job. The forum will only work well if we try to tell it like it is,not use it to bang a drum.

If XDM wants it told "like it is", that's their choice...

 

[Deepgreen]

They can't. The train is set up for DOO and can be legally and safely operated in DOO mode.

The second person- the Ticket Examiner- has no safety-critical duties. Their existence is only guaranteed as part of Abellio's contract with Transport Scotland. And if Transport Scotland can't or won't check up on Abellio...
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


And the particular individual chose to make it so when they attacked another forum member, an ex-LOROL guard, for a "fifty grand payoff".

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?p=2527687#post2527687



If XDM wants it told "like it is", that's their choice...

Possibly, but not necessarily - the sums paid to other people as 'pay-offs' may be known to some within the industry, but that doesn't mean XDM has made a point of who he is. I'm simply saying that all views are valid for discussion without necessarily becoming too fixated on individuals' identities.

 

[Tetchytyke]

that doesn't mean XDM has made a point of who he is.

When they are attacking someone else's points because of who they worked for then they have raised the point.

But, as I said, I actually suspect that individual is a crank.

Moving back to the point...

 

[Deepgreen]

When they are attacking someone else's points because of who they worked for then they have raised the point.

But, as I said, I actually suspect that individual is a crank.

Moving back to the point...

I think you've misunderstood my point - I was probably unclear - I meant that even if XDM is perceived to have attacked someone else because who that person works for, doesn't mean that XDM has made a point of who he (XDM) is/works for. For example, if you worked for, say, GWR, and I discovered you had been 'paid-off' and raised that point, it wouldn't mean that I was making any issue about my own identity/employer. I only clarify because I think it's an important part of forum interaction, not to defend XDM particularly.

When you say "crank" - do you mean this in the sense of 'enthusiast' or 'troll/similar'?

 

[Wolfie]

I think you've misunderstood my point - I was probably unclear - I meant that even if XDM is perceived to have attacked someone else because who that person works for, doesn't mean that XDM has made a point of who he (XDM) is/works for. For example, if you worked for, say, GWR, and I discovered you had been 'paid-off' and raised that point, it wouldn't mean that I was making any issue about my own identity/employer. I only clarify because I think it's an important part of forum interaction, not to defend XDM particularly.

When you say "crank" - do you mean this in the sense of 'enthusiast' or 'troll/similar'?

I may not agree with what an individual says but I respect their right to say it and to do so anomymously within forum rules.

Of course a Court or ET may take a different view and they actually have the power to change the last part of my first sentence if they feel it necessary....

 

[XDM]

They can't.


And the particular individual chose to make it so when they attacked another forum member, an ex-LOROL guard, for a "fifty grand payoff".

It was no attack. The poster, who told forum readers he was a former LOROL guard,urged Southern Conductors to fight their companies DOO plans. He claimed he had Lost his Lorol position because of DOO & had to take a £22,000 a year job with another TOC. He did not reveal he had received a huge payoff,in fact closer to £60,000, & possibly also had extra work with Lol as a consultant. He therefore gave an incorrect impression to other TOC conductors,trying to influence a key decision they had to take in their careers, & all posters & readers. The site should not be a propaganda playground. Most of us want facts about the railways not RMT fiction. Several of us thought that the truth should be revealed. Hence my post. He was not named but his droning on about himself has subsequently given away more info about him.

 

[FordFocus]

Why didn't the Scotrail drivers refuse to take these 400 trains with no second person?

It's classed as a DOO train. Second person isn't safety critical nor technically needed as per the railway rulebook.

As explained numerous times, once the Conductors are regraded then these OBS trains become DOO. That way the OBS become a luxury can Southern can have 400 OBS or 3 OBS in the company. No advantage to the passenger once the role has been made redundant, a backwards step considering the amount of money passengers are paying.

That's what this GTR dispute is about. RMT offered a compromise, dropping some strong hints that they would lose door controls provided that an OBS had to be on the train. GTR dismissed it.

 

[DarloRich]

The site should not be a propaganda playground. Most of us want facts about the railways not RMT fiction.

Most of us want facts.

Fiction from employers, including their shills, should be treated with the same contempt as fiction from the RMT. Wouldn't you agree?

 

[highdyke]

There seems to be a deafening silence from people outside the following groups:

Former railway workers, current staff, left wing fanatics.

Tells you all you need to know.

 

[DarloRich]

There seems to be a deafening silence from people outside the following groups:

Former railway workers, current staff, left wing fanatics.

Tells you all you need to know.

about what?

 

[Deepgreen]

There seems to be a deafening silence from people outside the following groups:

Former railway workers, current staff, left wing fanatics.

Tells you all you need to know.

Don't understand this, but if I now know all I need to it's going to save me a lot of time and effort learning.

 

[Fincra5]

There seems to be a deafening silence from people outside the following groups:

Former railway workers, current staff, left wing fanatics.

Tells you all you need to know.

You really do talk rubbish a lot mate!

And FordFocus hits the nail... the OBS won't be required on the train, so will that role last? Probably not.

GTR/DfT didn't want to agree to a mandatory 2nd person onboard. Says it all really.

 

[highdyke]

You really do talk rubbish a lot mate!

And FordFocus hits the nail... the OBS won't be required on the train, so will that role last? Probably not.

GTR/DfT didn't want to agree to a mandatory 2nd person onboard. Says it all really.

So you admit it's about RMT power and vested interests? So what if a manager posts, it's the flip side of the coin. That's if he is.

They'll be revenue and customer services roles, unless they don't wash their face.

All this talk about guards saving people from rapes is nonsense. The TOCs don't want guards getting involved, it means trains getting cancelled. The same reason the TOC wants flexibility with OBS, to avoid cancelling trains.

Some people won't be helped and spend all their energy shouting people like me down.

OBS and security guards on problem trains on some trains is a better option.

The RMT has fought the wrong campaign, they should have focused on customer service and the disabled. All this safety nonsense confuses the matter, especially on the doors, which makes the RMT look like throwbacks, especially with the class war nonsense.

ASLEF are on the usual money grab, they fought single manning for years until the cash was right, then all safety concerns went out the window.

Unfortunately in 4 days time the OBS role is in. You lost, too inward looking and you obfuscated all the messages. It's either confused the public or they are sick of both sides.

 

[the sniper]

There seems to be a deafening silence from people outside the following groups:

Former railway workers, current staff, left wing fanatics.

Tells you all you need to know.

You've left out your DOO advocacy group...

Should it just be an exclusive circle jerk thread for you and XDM, where you can state your version of the 'facts' to each other before an agreeable audience?

 

[highdyke]

You've left out your DOO advocacy group...

Should it just be an exclusive circle jerk thread for you and XDM, where you can state your version of the 'facts' to each other before an agreeable audience?

It doesn't affect me either way, I'm not inside the railway bubble and can see things you cannot. It's a PR disaster for Southern and the RMT.

 

[Fincra5]

So you admit it's about RMT power and vested interests? So what if a manager posts, it's the flip side of the coin. That's if he is.

They'll be revenue and customer services roles, unless they don't wash their face.

All this talk about guards saving people from rapes is nonsense. The TOCs don't want guards getting involved, it means trains getting cancelled. The same reason the TOC wants flexibility with OBS, to avoid cancelling trains.

Some people won't be helped and spend all their energy shouting people like me down.

OBS and security guards on problem trains on some trains is a better option.

The RMT has fought the wrong campaign, they should have focused on customer service and the disabled. All this safety nonsense confuses the matter, especially on the doors, which makes the RMT look like throwbacks, especially with the class war nonsense.

ASLEF are on the usual money grab, they fought single manning for years until the cash was right, then all safety concerns went out the window.

Unfortunately in 4 days time the OBS role is in. You lost, too inward looking and you obfuscated all the messages. It's either confused the public or they are sick of both sides.

Ha! You do amuse me so. I do love a bitter (ex)Signaller. The role might be in (on the mainline) but its not over. Trains failing DOO tests etc - You have no idea what Aslef members want... Or do you read minds too?

Passengers, at least the ones i've spoken to, much prefer the idea of the guard, someone who actually is fully trained in operations... someone who assists the driver in making the journey safe.

An OBS will be of no use. I guarantee they wont be around long. GTR don't care about tickets they get paid regardless! If they did the barriers would be manned.

Your so-called "facts" are laughable mate.

 

[Harbornite]

Forgive me if this has been answered already, but have Southern/ GTR actually stated that the role of the OBS is guaranteed and will not be axed?

 

[Dave1987]

Forgive me if this has been answered already, but have Southern/ GTR actually stated that the role of the OBS is guaranteed and will not be axed?

Nope! Wilkinson told the Transport Select committee he could not guarantee the roles wouldn't be axed.

 

[Domh245]

Forgive me if this has been answered already, but have Southern/ GTR actually stated that the role of the OBS is guaranteed and will not be axed?

I think one of their early guarantees was that it was guaranteed to the end of the franchise, but I remember a recent set of proposals that had words to the effect of "after 12 months there will be an opportunity to review the role of the OBS" as well as a complete lack of any guarantees to the end of franchise. Cynical me says that the review will be a chance for Southern to offload them.