Is the RMT out of control?

[Flamingo]

I wasn't intending to criticise the current staff,who I realise in the vast majority of cases do a great job,I was simply asking if people thought the railway itself had actually gained much by employing what are clearly far better educated staff but having to pay considerably higher wages than it traditionally has done for most of its historical existence

Well, if it was a minimum-wage job, I certainly would not have considered it, as would most of my colleagues, I'm sure. The people I work with, by and large, have come from outside the industry. They have a huge wealth of transferrable skills. My colleagues include ex-forces (some of whom are decorated) from infantry, engineers, logistics, (one or two I suspect were SF - shushhh), Royal Marines, RAF and Navy; Intensive Care trained Nurses; Police; Paramedics; IT managers; Graduates with BA's BSc, and MA's with degrees as varied as Metallurgy, History, English Literature and Nuclear Physics; Qualifed tradespeople in plumbing, electricians, bricklayers, joiners. Lots of people who managed pubs, shops, hotels. Qualified pilots.

I think that attracting that sort of a skilled pool of workers takes a decent pay-packet.

I agree it's a well paid job. I try to do a fair days work, for a fair days pay, but I wouldn't be doing it as a volunteer. I don't know many in the grade that would.

 

[Domh245]

Yes, the RMT are completely out of control. They've now got an armed group of supporters in the middle east!

http://www.middleeasteye.net/news/f...roup-named-after-uk-trade-unionist-1520200104

(comment made in jest, story is true)

 

[Mutant Lemming]

. Think scargill and miners strike who benefitted from his strike? Not the miners who I have lots of time for it is a job I could not do.

.

Police officers up and down the country benefitted hugely - many even call him Saint Arthur. Many paid off their mortgages on the back of the overtime

 

[FordFocus]

I wasn't intending to criticise the current staff,who I realise in the vast majority of cases do a great job,I was simply asking if people thought the railway itself had actually gained much by employing what are clearly far better educated staff but having to pay considerably higher wages than it traditionally has done for most of its historical existence

I don't think I'll ever change your opinion as your posts tend to be critical in some description towards rail staff or the unions but I shall partially respond for the benefit of others.

The link between education, salary and ability is a curious one. Front line staff on the railway is done on suitability like previous experience in jobs, basic education and decent health. What degrees at university or college help towards driving a train or been a conductor? You can have a masters degree in what you want but you need to pass the psychometric tests for some roles which test ability not knowledge or university education of the job. I've seen people who are very well educated cock up in spectacular fashion that they were removed from driving and ultimately went into an office job somewhere away from operations.

When BR was in existence the wage was poor and relied on overtime. The unions traded in a lot of conditions such as overtime rates and allowances for a better wage in the 90s under various restructuring schemes. In most cases it was beneficial to the company as their staff was more productive than employing more staff on the previous contracts. The staff had a clean, pensionable salary in return.

Higher wages also came when certain companies tried poaching staff for new services or to avoid training costs so offered a lot more money. The other TOCs had to slow or stop the flow of drivers leaving so they had to match near their headline salary figure. The unions secured above RPI pay increases but that isn't the case much any more with the railway pension scheme having to be capped.

Years ago no one wanted to work on the railway. Speak to some staff and they only joined temporarily until something else came up as the money was awful. Thanks to privatisation and the unions the money is better. At the time of writing there are 64 people viewing the Railway Jobs and Careers section of this forum. That should count for something.

 

[Tetchytyke]

You try and defend the RMT, and then they shove out a press release like this.

https://www.rmt.org.uk/news/rmt-confirms-strikes-on-virgin-east-coast-after-84-vote-for/

We will also not tolerate the cavalier attitude to safety that is now on show as the company mobilises its scab army of managers. Our members are being subject to outrageous intimidation and bullying as their trains are commandeered as part of the scabbing process.

Really lads? Really?

Although

their attempts to bulldoze through a package of cash-led measure that would decimate jobs

is pretty serious. I'd not tolerate a tenth of the workforce being executed either.

 

[Domh245]

You try and defend the RMT, and then they shove out a press release like this.

https://www.rmt.org.uk/news/rmt-confirms-strikes-on-virgin-east-coast-after-84-vote-for/



Really lads? Really?

Although



is pretty serious. I'd not tolerate a tenth of the workforce being executed either.

The problem arises when a trade union thinks that it is a political party. Perhaps it should focus on what it needs to do, instead of what it thinks it should do.

 

[ainsworth74]

You try and defend the RMT, and then they shove out a press release like this.

https://www.rmt.org.uk/news/rmt-confirms-strikes-on-virgin-east-coast-after-84-vote-for/



Really lads? Really?

I just couldn't quite believe what I read when I saw that. They have an argument. It's just lost, as flipping always, amongst all the ridiculous language that their press releases contain. *sigh*

 

[Bromley boy]

I just couldn't quite believe what I read when I saw that. They have an argument. It's just lost, as flipping always, amongst all the ridiculous language that their press releases contain. *sigh*

Surely a well established union such as the RMT employs full time press-liaison/corporate communications type people who should be able to turn out more persuasive press releases than this stuff?

As you say they have an argument, they're just appalling at articulating it.

EDIT: they should headhunt some from GTR who seem rather better at it, sadly.

 

[AlterEgo]

Surely a well established union such as the RMT employs full time press-liaison/corporate communications type people who should be able to turn out more persuasive press releases than this stuff?

As you say they have an argument, they're just appalling at articulating it.

I don't think they have professional comms people. I'm a PR man myself and I'm just aghast at how bad their output is.

It's terribly isolationist.

 

[gavin]

Virgin have said the RMT walked out of talks yesterday after refusing to enter further discussions.

 

[313103]

You try and defend the RMT, and then they shove out a press release like this.

https://www.rmt.org.uk/news/rmt-confirms-strikes-on-virgin-east-coast-after-84-vote-for/



Really lads? Really?

Although



is pretty serious. I'd not tolerate a tenth of the workforce being executed either.

Nothing wrong in telling it how it is!

Why do people get offended when the word scab is used? Those that dont like it will then call union members trots, marxist and other derogatory left wing names. After all the company can bring in who they want, but the union is not allowed to do likewise to support its members, to me then and i will be blunt that is a scab workforce.

I also cannot see anything wrong with the 6 points the union wants for its members.

The company should be honest and upfront about why they want to make wholesale change, if they bid to high or to low for the franchise, they then shouldnt pass on the costs it will lose onto the workforce.

 

[Domh245]

Nothing wrong in telling it how it is!

Why do people get offended when the word scab is used? Those that dont like it will then call union members trots, marxist and other derogatory left wing names. After all the company can bring in who they want, but the union is not allowed to do likewise to support its members, to me then and i will be blunt that is a scab workforce.

I also cannot see anything wrong with the 6 points the union wants for its members.

The company should be honest and upfront about why they want to make wholesale change, if they bid to high or to low for the franchise, they then shouldnt pass on the costs it will lose onto the workforce.

That kind of retoric doesn't win them any favours with the general public though. Rather than calling them scab guards, they could call them temporary guards who don't have the necessary training (etc) which is more likely to win support from the public.

 

[TUC]

It is broadly the case that most disputes occur in industries that are either state-run or, if privately run, are dependant upon the state for their income, or in some way linked to the state to greater or lesser degrees. For example, state run schools are prone to disputes. Conversely, businesses like BT or the energy companies, although historically they were state-owned, are not primarily dependant upon the state for income snd have far fewer disputes than when they were state owned.

The rail industry is an uncomfortable hybrid. Private companies with fixed term govrrnment franchises. This gives rail unions the feeliing that, at the end of the day, if their demands cost a TOC too much money, the government will end up opening their wallet, whether it is by accepting increased subsidies to, or rediced premiums from, the TOC, or by terminating the franchise. This results in the normal disciplines of the market not properly influrncing union approaches to disputes. The only way to resolve this may be to truly fully privatise the lnetwork, with government subsides focitsed on specific loss making journeys, as in the bus industry. That may result in much more normalised company/union relationships.

 

[AlterEgo]

That kind of retoric doesn't win them any favours with the general public though. Rather than calling them scab guards, they could call them temporary guards who don't have the necessary training (etc) which is more likely to win support from the public.

It's rather incredible that you need to explain this to anyone.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Nothing wrong in telling it how it is!

In an internal document I'd agree, but this is a press release.

If the argument is about the safety competence of the EMT managers, they should say so, rather than wittering on about "scabbing" that most people neither understand nor care about anymore. And even if their main gripe is the scabbing, presenting it calmly and in terms of safety is more likely to win friends and influence people.

It depends what you're wanting to achieve. If you're wanting to make yourself sound good down the WMC then this is the way to go. But if, on the other hand, you're actually wanting to influence people then putting Dave Spart out banging on a soapbox ain't really the way forward.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I just couldn't quite believe what I read when I saw that. They have an argument. It's just lost, as flipping always, amongst all the ridiculous language that their press releases contain. *sigh*

Well quite.

There's no context to the dispute, there's no explanation about what the requests are and why they want them, there's just a tirade about Stagecoach managers being brought in to run a Stagecoach service in disruption and how this is somehow "bullying" and "victimisation".

No lads, it really isn't, and the 1970s vitriol isn't going to get you what you want.

All Stagecoach PR now have to do is quote that release with the comment "yep, this is why we're pushing for modernisation in the franchise".

*headdesk*

 

[Bromley boy]

Nothing wrong in telling it how it is!

Why do people get offended when the word scab is used? Those that dont like it will then call union members trots, marxist and other derogatory left wing names. After all the company can bring in who they want, but the union is not allowed to do likewise to support its members, to me then and i will be blunt that is a scab workforce.

I also cannot see anything wrong with the 6 points the union wants for its members.

The company should be honest and upfront about why they want to make wholesale change, if they bid to high or to low for the franchise, they then shouldnt pass on the costs it will lose onto the workforce.

Thing is, language like "scab" is not widely understood, and this press release reads as if it is just preaching to the converted. They need to win public support so they need to "tell it like it is" in a way the skeptical public at large can buy into rather than just the members.

 

[gimmea50anyday]

Hmm.... so VTEC want to cut staff when they are already short staffed?

Ticket barries are not operational because they do not have enough staff to man those barriersand yet they are axing jobs.....

 

[Tetchytyke]

Ticket barries are not operational because they do not have enough staff to man those barriersand yet they are axing jobs.....

They're booting ticket office staff out of the ticket office and sticking them on a barrier. Whether this keeps the same staff numbers, or whether it cuts them, remains to be seen. But VTEC already seem happy to have "security guards" rather than VTEC staff at the barriers in Newcastle (some of whom can barely speak three words of English), with most of the barrier lines locked closed, so I'm assuming they don't really care about the customer experience.

All of this would make a much better press release rather than blah blah Souter blah blah profits blah blah scabs. Souter is a money-grabbing scumbag, but that's not really the point.

 

[OuterDistant]

If anyone from the RMT is reading this, you need to engage a PR consultant. Now.

 

[DT611]

The only way to resolve this may be to truly fully privatise the lnetwork

so basically what was tried and failed all ready, but adding the subsidising of particular journeys? Or something else?

All Stagecoach PR now have to do is quote that release with the comment "yep, this is why we're pushing for modernisation in the franchise".

You would think, but i'm not sure a simple statement like that would be bought by enough people these days.
That RMT press release is ridiculous though.

 

[SteveP29]

They're booting ticket office staff out of the ticket office and sticking them on a barrier. Whether this keeps the same staff numbers, or whether it cuts them, remains to be seen. But VTEC already seem happy to have "security guards" rather than VTEC staff at the barriers in Newcastle (some of whom can barely speak three words of English), with most of the barrier lines locked closed, so I'm assuming they don't really care about the customer experience.

The ones on platform 9-12 side of the bridge are always closed/ out of service when I arrive in Newcastle (usually 26 times a year), I don't think I've ever seen them open on a Saturday morning since they were installed.
There are always police on the public side of the barriers on a matchday when I arrive, but at 10am, is that really necessary? we don't play sunderland every bloody time

 

[Bald Rick]

Having read the press release, and going back to the OP question, no the RMT are not out of control, as someone has decided to issue that press release. However the wisdom of the RMT leadership that decided to do so does have to be called into question. It would be so much more effective if they took the emotive language out of it. It just sounds like bullying and harassment from the union.

(As an aside, the only bullying and harassment I have experienced in the RMT context was from their own reps and officials, but then you get bad apples in every barrel).

 

[carriageline]

As someone who pays the RMT every month, I frankly feel let down by their handling and press releases of the GTR fiasco. If they actually spent time and money trying to get a decent image out to the public, that will get them on side, they could have much more support (I admit they have slightly got better at this, but that press release shows they need kicking into the 21st century)

They very rarely get their point across, and sound nor along the lines of "we want more money/we want to work less etc etc"

 

[Wolfie]

As someone who pays the RMT every month, I frankly feel let down by their handling and press releases of the GTR fiasco. If they actually spent time and money trying to get a decent image out to the public, that will get them on side, they could have much more support (I admit they have slightly got better at this, but that press release shows they need kicking into the 21st century)

They very rarely get their point across, and sound nor along the lines of "we want more money/we want to work less etc etc"

As someone who is a TU member, albeit not on the railway, and is supportive of the principle of many of the issues RMT currently have with a number of TOCs I do have to say that they certainly do not help either the TU or their members with such press releases.

 

[Domeyhead]

And thus is my point proved. Once the Train Guard is a cheery chappy getting everybody home, he (or she) is salt of the earth. Once we forget our position as servants of the travelling public (as I have seen it put in this forum), how dare we!

When the guard is not there, what will YOU do to face down those difficult and threathning passengers? Because it sure as hell won't be the RMT's problem any more - it'll be yours. The DfT will continue to take as much notice of the "Passenger Bodies" as they already do, i.e. none.

Oh for goodness sake grow up man. I am an adult with a job and so are you. My comment was nothing to do with some kind of faux harry Enfield sketch about the lower orders and it takes an extraordinary degree of thin skinned self pity to interpret it thus. If you want to take that line there will never be any sensible adult dialogue on this forum or elsewhere. I made my own opinion clear that I and I believe on train staff are both essential and appreciated by the travelling public, but the travelling public want to travel and do not want to be the unwitting pawns in a dispute over who presses which button. If you interpret appreciation as a condescending pat on the head from a bowler hatted toff then yes my friend, you are in the wrong job.

 

[Robertj21a]

If anyone from the RMT is reading this, you need to engage a PR consultant. Now.

Unfortunately, a number of us have been highlighting this for quite some time now. The RMT Press Releases are, I'm sorry to say, quite utterly appalling and may simply serve to remind the public that Trade Unions are still stuck back in the dark ages. Many releases to the Press read as if there's nobody with any skills whatsoever in the RMT office where the text is put together (and, presumably, then agreed with those in charge). It's as if they want to deliberately shoot themselves in both feet.

 

[Phil.]

The RMT is now a totally political driven organisation - as many are now. It's time for them to start negotiating a future for displaced staff and to stop being in denial about what's happening out there. The management have contempt for them, the public have contempt for them and now many of their own members are beginning to question their antics. D.O.O. is here to stay.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

. . .
If they actually spent time and money trying to get a decent image out to the public, that will get them on side, they could have much more support (I admit they have slightly got better at this, but that press release shows they need kicking into the 21st century)

I agree strongly with this point of view, and not just based on the recent press release.

I've been surprised that the union hadn't done more to win the support of rail passengers - especially outside London where Guards are seen and spoken to regularly - but even in London, it's easy to win support of passengers who feel safer having a member of staff on-board (other than the driver).

Hmm.... so VTEC want to cut staff when they are already short staffed?

Yes, the definitely do.

 

[Wolfie]

The RMT is now a totally political driven organisation - as many are now. It's time for them to start negotiating a future for displaced staff and to stop being in denial about what's happening out there. The management have contempt for them, the public have contempt for them and now many of their own members are beginning to question their antics. D.O.O. is here to stay.

If RMT was to do what you say then the answer to the question at the start of this thread would be yes. RMT or any TU ultimately does what it's members want. They have voted to oppose DOO and Southern RMT members have specifically voted for industrial action on the issue. The union does what the members want not the members what the union wants....

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

The union does what the members want not the members what the union wants....

Therefore, based on what you say above, you seem to infer that the press releases of the RMT are couched in the language of what the members want, not what the union wants.

Do I read you correctly?