East Anglia fleet future cascade options

[jon0844]

The luggage racks can easily be replaced, but these trains weren't solely for airport services. They are branded for Stansted Express and regular services to Cambridge.

The mix of stock makes it very sensible to reduce the choices, and then split the workable stock up in better locations.

No doubt people who get cascaded stock won't be quite so happy, but amongst that list are some pretty decent trains with plenty of life in them. Certainly the 379 replacements should be even better as, finally, they'll be based on much newer designs and equipment.

 

[southern442]

I think the 379s should go to Gatwick Express. They have a FAR better interior than both classes currently used, as they are purpose built for the job unlike the 442's, and have a proper airport express seating layout unlike the 387's. The 387's are then free to join their brothers and sisters on the Midland Main Line or wherever they are put.

(I've also been very busy on MS Paint editing drawings of the class 321 with different colour schemes to work out where we should send them)

 

[Kyle1]

I know i previously suggested that the 321's could go to a wired up Valley Lines network, but assuming that doesn't (and probably won't) happen, what about sending some to Scotland? They could replace the 314's allowing them to be scrapped, and also strengthen the nearly identical 320 fleet.

 

[bramling]

It's quite ridiculous, I never thought I'd get to a stage where I'd say that the DFT have gone mad and are letting train orders spiral out of control, having spent the last decade arguing the reverse and the gross overcrowding caused by their micromanagement.

It's the situation with the 379s that makes me laugh the most, that's just pure lunacy, they're buying a new airport fleet to replace a bunch of 4-5 year old specifically built airport rolling stock. Someone is now going to have to foot the bill to refit them no doubt.

It makes no sense whatsoever and the presence of such trains already on the cast-off market at 5 years old leaves us with the knock on effect of having so many 321s that are going to end up going to the scrapyard.

And here's the bet that not long after those 321s are scrapped, we find ourselves short of trains again.

Madness.

 

[jayiscupid]

I know i previously suggested that the 321's could go to a wired up Valley Lines network, but assuming that doesn't (and probably won't) happen, what about sending some to Scotland? They could replace the 314's allowing them to be scrapped, and also strengthen the nearly identical 320 fleet.

With the 321 units ablility to be reconfigured into 3 car units might this make them more attractive?
A mix of 3 and 4 cars for the welsh valleys would permit 6 car workings where 8 cars would be too much.

It's a shame they can't be sent to the north as 3/4 car units to replace the 319s. A larger fleet would then allow 3/4/6/7/8 car trains as and when needed to supplement the new 331s. I know the Bolton route would be a good use for 2x3car 321's once the electrification is complete.

Are the 5th coaches from 360s compatible with their 450 brothers? I know it would create a micro fleet but would SWT be interested in some 5 car 450s for the Windsor lines to back up the new 707s?

 

[158756]

I know i previously suggested that the 321's could go to a wired up Valley Lines network, but assuming that doesn't (and probably won't) happen, what about sending some to Scotland? They could replace the 314's allowing them to be scrapped, and also strengthen the nearly identical 320 fleet.

The 314s are already down for withdrawal in the new Scotrail franchise. They've got new trains on order as well, which IIRC also provide some additional capacity
Isn't it very difficult to add more trains to existing franchises? The new Scotrail and Northern franchises receive vast subsidies and have ordered expensive new trains so I'd have thought they can't afford (and are unlikely to need) more trains.

 

[The Ham]

Way it works for Angel Trains is like this on the resultant cascades

317s - they'd be scrapped even if only they were replaced since they're life expired
321s - GA order makes them hard to place - not Angel Trains problem, don't own them.
360s - they'll be easily redeployed elsewhere.
379s - Not Angel Trains problem, don't own them, make more 321s redundant.

Pretty good deal for them all around, they get rid a pile of life expired stock, get a massive new deal on a franchise they had relatively little on before, cascade 21 EMUs which there will be no shortage of takes for, and a competitor is left with a pile of almost 100 mid life trains that they have no work for.

All it really does is make Angel trains position against other leasing companies stronger because the amount of surplus mid-life stock that is going to be around isn't on their books.

I wish Eversholt good luck with the 321s!

It could also scupper Porterbrook with trying to find homes for their 319's and/or getting existing users to keep hold of them.

The 360's could even be retained on the new franchise, if passenger growth is sufficient to warrant some extra units come 2020.

 

[dk1]

I cannot hide my elation at this thread. Whoever would have thought that us East Anglians would be 'handing down' our stock to others? Bring back BR, no thanks

 

[northwichcat]

The 314s are already down for withdrawal in the new Scotrail franchise. They've got new trains on order as well, which IIRC also provide some additional capacity
Isn't it very difficult to add more trains to existing franchises? The new Scotrail and Northern franchises receive vast subsidies and have ordered expensive new trains so I'd have thought they can't afford (and are unlikely to need) more trains.

Scotrail have twice increased the number of carriages they are having since the original franchise award so it seems Transport Scotland are happy to give them a blank cheque.

New Northern are getting a much lower subsidy - lower than ATW so I wouldn't rule out stock in the Northern fleet going to Valley Lines with Northern getting something newer.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I cannot hide my elation at this thread. Whoever would have thought that us East Anglians would be 'handing down' our stock to others? Bring back BR, no thanks

Didn't Anglia used to have 150s?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I think the 379s should go to Gatwick Express. They have a FAR better interior than both classes currently used, as they are purpose built for the job unlike the 442's, and have a proper airport express seating layout unlike the 387's. The 387's are then free to join their brothers and sisters on the Midland Main Line or wherever they are put.

(I've also been very busy on MS Paint editing drawings of the class 321 with different colour schemes to work out where we should send them)

I'm sure MML passengers would also prefer to the 379 interior to the 387 interior.

 

[Wivenswold]

It's worth remembering that the 321s will be past 30 years old by the time this happens. I know other areas will see that as luxury but they've spent those 30 years on frontline commuter duties, I don't see them as anything but life-expired for UK purposes.

And there was me dreading us being stuck with refurbished ones for the rest of my working life.

 

[43074]

Didn't Anglia used to have 150s?

They did, but that was a like for like swap for Central's 156s, slightly different from the incoming stock being brand new Stadler 3-car bi-modes.

 

[adc82140]

If there's a need for a home for a surplus of 319s, what about Southern to replace the 455s? By the time this all happens, the 455s will just about be ready for the knackers yard.

 

[northwichcat]

It's worth remembering that the 321s will be past 30 years old by the time this happens. I know other areas will see that as luxury but they've spent those 30 years on frontline commuter duties, I don't see them as anything but life-expired for UK purposes.

There's many EMUs which have been on commuter duties for longer than that currently. Look at the 313s, the 507s and the 508s.

 

[F Great Eastern]

Pretty much everything older than the 321s where the 321s can be used appears to already be due for withdrawal with new stock already allocated in almost all cases at this point apart from a very small number of trains, the combination of a huge order for GA, coupled with the addition of 200 modern EMU carriages on the leasing market means that not only are the 321s sidelined from their current work, the fact newer stock is also being made redundant is going to limit their usefulness on the second hand market.

The fact though they even were due to have such a heavy refurbishment though tells you they are not life expired like some people on here believe, they're good for another 10 years or so if we need them to be.

 

[class387]

The 379s could also go to Heathrow Express to replace the older and in my opinion less comfortable 332s, which could join their 333 cousins at Northern.

Also, with all the articles mentioning 'East Anglia', will this even affect the 379s?

 

[43096]

Also, with all the articles mentioning 'East Anglia', will this even affect the 379s?

Which bit of total fleet replacement are you struggling with?

 

[Quakkerillo]

The 379s could also go to Heathrow Express to replace the older and in my opinion less comfortable 332s, which could join their 333 cousins at Northern.

Also, with all the articles mentioning 'East Anglia', will this even affect the 379s?

Abellio East Anglia is the name used for the franchise "East Anglia". So the "western" lines to Cambridge/Stansted with the 379's are included.

 

[F Great Eastern]

The 379s could also go to Heathrow Express to replace the older and in my opinion less comfortable 332s, which could join their 333 cousins at Northern.

Also, with all the articles mentioning 'East Anglia', will this even affect the 379s?

It's a FULL fleet replacement.

Everything is going.

 

[RobShipway]

The 379s could also go to Heathrow Express to replace the older and in my opinion less comfortable 332s, which could join their 333 cousins at Northern.

Also, with all the articles mentioning 'East Anglia', will this even affect the 379s?

I can see the class 379 units doing stopping services from Oxford to Reading and then on Heathrow, while the class 378's do the faster express services on the GWML.

I am presuming that the class 379's are DC compatible as well as having battery power capability? If that is the case I can also see the class 379's maybe being used on Oxford - Gatwick services and also Heathrow - Gatwick services with using the junction connection at OOC to Kensington Olympia if still exists?

 

[ainsworth74]

They are probably able to be made DC compatible but I do not think it's something that they can do 'out of the box' (in a similar way to 450s, for example, being compatible with AC OHLE but needing work in order for it to happen). I am also not sure if they have the right bogies for the mounting of shoe gear or if they would also need new bogies.

 

[class387]

Which bit of total fleet replacement are you struggling with?

My apologies. Thought that West and East Anglia were different franchises.

 

[notlob.divad]

The 379s with their airport interior sound like they would have been almost perfect for the Blackpool and Windermere Northern connect services once the wires are up. If they hadn't just ordered the new civities that is.

 

[Domh245]

They are probably able to be made DC compatible but I do not think it's something that they can do 'out of the box' (in a similar way to 450s, for example, being compatible with AC OHLE but needing work in order for it to happen). I am also not sure if they have the right bogies for the mounting of shoe gear or if they would also need new bogies.

Given the prevalence of Shoegear across the electrostar fleet, I wouldn't be surprised if the 379 bogie was just a normal one without the shoegear beam, as opposed to a new design.

 

[BuryBlue]

The 319s are already starting to hit the tail end of the bathtub curve and I bet the managers at ATN are silently fist pumping now that they can probably get DDA compliant stock which doesn't need an extensive refurbishment.

The 321s will be 31 years old when they leave service with Anglia; that's not exactly mid life, is it? If they go somewhere else even on a short term placement (eg 3-4 years) they're well into the traditionally accepted age at which they can be withdrawn from service.

Anglia might yet keep some of its existing stock or take some of the intercity stock that's up for grabs yet.

 

[swt_passenger]

I am presuming that the class 379's are DC compatible as well as having battery power capability?

'Having battery capability' is a bit of a stretch. One unit was temporarily converted under trial conditions for a short period of time. As a proof of concept it worked, but it doesn't mean series production for a whole fleet, designed for long term maintainability, is waiting to go.

 

[Dave1987]

I cannot hide my elation at this thread. Whoever would have thought that us East Anglians would be 'handing down' our stock to others? Bring back BR, no thanks

It is rather weird isn't it. After all the talk of what could be dumped on this franchise all of a sudden it's talk about where our current stock could be dumped elsewhere.

 

[TheEdge]

I cannot hide my elation at this thread. Whoever would have thought that us East Anglians would be 'handing down' our stock to others? Bring back BR, no thanks

We've been biding our time. Just when they thought we were broken, BOOM, have our hand-me-downs

 

[jcc]

while the class 378's do the faster express services on the GWML.

Imagine the commuter outrage at that!

 

[Wolfie]

I think the 379s should go to Gatwick Express. They have a FAR better interior than both classes currently used, as they are purpose built for the job unlike the 442's, and have a proper airport express seating layout unlike the 387's. The 387's are then free to join their brothers and sisters on the Midland Main Line or wherever they are put.

That actually (dependent upon which ROSCOs are involved) isn't a bad call. 379s are obviously similar to other extant GTR stock.

The 379s could also go to Heathrow Express to replace the older and in my opinion less comfortable 332s, which could join their 333 cousins at Northern.

my bold

I know that opinion is subjective but I'm afraid I find this statement laughable. Have you ever used HEX, particularly First class?

And here's the bet that not long after those 321s are scrapped, we find ourselves short of trains again.

Madness.

In this situation lets hope that DfT bite the bullet and actually increase capacity significantly on a number of franchises rather than do like or like (or a small margin) increases and then, five years or so down the road, face the scenario you highlight...

 

[swt_passenger]

My apologies. Thought that West and East Anglia were different franchises.

They were back in the days of the "WAGN" franchise, but that was prior to the SRA reorganisation of franchises in April 2004.

The more recent change is that TfL took over some of the West Anglia inner services as part of the LO expansion, but the longer distance West Anglia stuff remains with what we'll shortly be calling 'East Anglia'.