Is the RMT out of control?

[Tetchytyke]

Jesus Christ is this really the level of debate we're at?

Given Horton's track record as Operations Director at Connex (remember them, they were the ones who were universally loathed and then sacked for being utterly incompetent?), then yes, that is the level we're at

It's funny how executive failure doesn't have the consequences that failure would have for the rest of us.

 

[highdyke]

Given Horton's track record as Operations Director at Connex (remember them, they were the ones who were universally loathed and then sacked for being utterly incompetent?), then yes, that is the level we're at

It's funny how executive failure doesn't have the consequences that failure would have for the rest of us.

Well you know my answer more university courses and third party training. The trouble is it suits those in the industry to run it like it is.

 

[XDM]

Well the future doesnt bode well for Guards, they will all be gone long before i retire. So as the numbers dwindle less and less people can be Guards. So once you have saved the money to employ Guards and other assorted employees that must obviously mean we dont need as many Chief executives.

Almost anyone can be a guard,which is why they are vastly overpaid. They should be on the average wage but guards' pay has been driven up by BR & TOC fear of industrial action. So the employers,until Charles Horton, have given in year after year & paid guards more,& asked them to do less. He is a hero.
Not everyone can be a driver,the assessment tests are tough & the job requires good sense & a cool head. So they deserve much more than a guard. Capable guards can & do become drivers. Less capable redundant guards become cleaners.
Hardly anybody wants to be a CEO because of the insults they get from forum members here & basketcase Union officials. Would anyone reading this want to take the relentless cruel abuse that a few posters pile on Charles day in & day out.

 

[DarloRich]

Almost anyone can be a guard,which is why they are vastly overpaid. They should be on the average wage but guards' pay has been driven up by BR & TOC fear of industrial action. So the employers,until Charles Horton, have given in year after year & paid guards more,& asked them to do less. He is a hero.
Not everyone can be a driver,the assessment tests are tough & the job requires good sense & a cool head. So they deserve much more than a guard. Capable guards can & do become drivers. Less capable redundant guards become cleaners.
Hardly anybody wants to be a CEO because of the insults they get from forum members here & basketcase Union officials. Would anyone reading this want to take the relentless cruel abuse that a few posters pile on Charles day in & day out.

You can fire abuse at me all day long for his salary, pension, bonus, share options etc! I would sit back, absorb it all with a smile and check the bank balance I think his "coal face" staff will be routinely abused much more often than he is. Sometimes physically.

 

[plastictaffy]

My tuppence worth is that the RMT no longer actually give a hoot about their members as long as the subs keep pouring in.

 

[Minilad]

Almost anyone can be a guard,which is why they are vastly overpaid. They should be on the average wage but guards' pay has been driven up by BR & TOC fear of industrial action. So the employers,until Charles Horton, have given in year after year & paid guards more,& asked them to do less. He is a hero.
Not everyone can be a driver,the assessment tests are tough & the job requires good sense & a cool head. So they deserve much more than a guard. Capable guards can & do become drivers. Less capable redundant guards become cleaners.
Hardly anybody wants to be a CEO because of the insults they get from forum members here & basketcase Union officials. Would anyone reading this want to take the relentless cruel abuse that a few posters pile on Charles day in & day out.

I would hazard a guess and say a guard gets far more "relentless cruel abuse" on a day to day basis than Horton.
More often than not directly to their face about things they have no control over.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Hardly anybody wants to be a CEO because of the insults they get from forum members

I'm sure David Brown will be sobbing into his caviar tonight because some gob****e from Newcastle thinks he's overpaid.

I'm sure his £2.16m bonus will come in handy to pay for the therapy to get over the "vile abuse", if nothing else

 

[plastictaffy]

Almost anyone can be a guard,which is why they are vastly overpaid. They should be on the average wage but guards' pay has been driven up by BR & TOC fear of industrial action. So the employers,until Charles Horton, have given in year after year & paid guards more,& asked them to do less. He is a hero.
Not everyone can be a driver,the assessment tests are tough & the job requires good sense & a cool head. So they deserve much more than a guard. Capable guards can & do become drivers. Less capable redundant guards become cleaners.
Hardly anybody wants to be a CEO because of the insults they get from forum members here & basketcase Union officials. Would anyone reading this want to take the relentless cruel abuse that a few posters pile on Charles day in & day out.

Vastly overpaid?? Do you actually know what Guards earn?? I wouldn't call it overpaid for putting up with the grief we get from both the TOC and the punters on a regular basis, for getting up at three in the morning to ensure that others can get to work, for pouring out a drunk load of punters onto a station platform at two in the morning, having listened to them singing and abusing other passengers on the way home. We're also subject to regular assessments as we are safety critical. These assessments generally test your route knowledge and the finer points of the rule book, whilst watching how you interact with the passengers when walking through trains. If you don't have anything worthwhile to add to the conversation, go forth and multiply in short jerky movements.

 

[ExRes]

Hardly anybody wants to be a CEO because of the insults they get from forum members here & basketcase Union officials. Would anyone reading this want to take the relentless cruel abuse that a few posters pile on Charles day in & day out.

Anyone who deserves to reach the level of CEO wouldn't give a fig for what anyone on this forum, or any other moronic 'social media' platform, thinks

I'd take the 'cruel abuse' that 'Charles' takes in return for his salary any day

 

[Wolfie]

Almost anyone can be a guard,which is why they are vastly overpaid. They should be on the average wage but guards' pay has been driven up by BR & TOC fear of industrial action. So the employers,until Charles Horton, have given in year after year & paid guards more,& asked them to do less. He is a hero.
Not everyone can be a driver,the assessment tests are tough & the job requires good sense & a cool head. So they deserve much more than a guard. Capable guards can & do become drivers. Less capable redundant guards become cleaners.
Hardly anybody wants to be a CEO because of the insults they get from forum members here & basketcase Union officials. Would anyone reading this want to take the relentless cruel abuse that a few posters pile on Charles day in & day out.

It is so "cruel" to point out the facts about Charlie "Failure" Horton's track record isn't it. After being involved in the Connex fiasco it is only in the rail industry that such a failure would get another senior job. He is now involved in a possibly even bigger fiasco. If I was paid much more than my skillset merited in the same way as "Failure" I could take a few insults too....

 

[plastictaffy]

I would hazard a guess and say a guard gets far more "relentless cruel abuse" on a day to day basis than Horton.
More often than not directly to their face about things they have no control over.

Damn straight we do, and generally accept it with a smile on our faces, and we'll come back the next day to do it all again. XDM is probably the sort of guy that would give the guard a hard time when the train has stopped due to a fatality, demanding to know why he's being held up. There's generally at least one on every train. You can usually tell which one it will be, as he'll have a beard, possibly a topknot, Beats headphones, brown pointy shoes, and will drive either a BMW or an Audi, unless he's struck gold and has managed to buy the Porsche he promised himself when he was 14 and realised he was sadly lacking in the trouser department.

 

[TheKnightWho]

I think Remainers failed to appreciate the problems EU brings us as well as any advantages. We are tied down to this and that such as controlling immigration, petty rules and red tape and the ability to control our own destiny when EU Rules work against us. There were 2 sides to the Campaign.

"ability to control our own destiny"

No-one has ever really explained to me what this means.

But then, this is irrelevant to the DOO thread.

 

[AlterEgo]

XDM is probably the sort of guy that would give the guard a hard time when the train has stopped due to a fatality, demanding to know why he's being held up. There's generally at least one on every train. You can usually tell which one it will be, as he'll have a beard, possibly a topknot, Beats headphones, brown pointy shoes, and will drive either a BMW or an Audi, unless he's struck gold and has managed to buy the Porsche he promised himself when he was 14 and realised he was sadly lacking in the trouser department.

I really doubt we have any bearded topknots on RailUK.

By the way, bearded topknots who drive German cars are still paying customers, so it's a bit déclassé to slag them off on a thread which is about saving your grade.

 

[313103]

Almost anyone can be a guard,which is why they are vastly overpaid. They should be on the average wage but guards' pay has been driven up by BR & TOC fear of industrial action. So the employers,until Charles Horton, have given in year after year & paid guards more,& asked them to do less. He is a hero.
Not everyone can be a driver,the assessment tests are tough & the job requires good sense & a cool head. So they deserve much more than a guard. Capable guards can & do become drivers. Less capable redundant guards become cleaners.
Hardly anybody wants to be a CEO because of the insults they get from forum members here & basketcase Union officials. Would anyone reading this want to take the relentless cruel abuse that a few posters pile on Charles day in & day out.

You really know nothing dont you? and a nasty piece of work to boot, such a pity i dont see you anymore.

And your comments about this forum upsetting the likes of horton and co, is truly laughable if the fact you think its serious. I even doubt Horton knows about this forum its for the commoner like me and YOU!

 

[scott118]

https://twitter.com/SouthernRailUK/status/763362361122103296

http://www.southernrailway.com/southern/news/rmt-rail-strike-suspended-for-talks/

strike suspended..

 

[Domh245]

https://twitter.com/SouthernRailUK/status/763362361122103296

http://www.southernrailway.com/southern/news/rmt-rail-strike-suspended-for-talks/

strike suspended..

Interesting to see that Southern have said that RMT have agreed to more talks. I thought that it was the RMT who made the initial offer...

 

[Carlisle]

Vastly overpaid?? Do you actually know what Guards earn?? I wouldn't call it overpaid .

Inter City ones 40k plus, not saying they're not worth it just stating facts

 

[AlterEgo]

Inter City ones 40k plus

If you include commission and overtime yes.

I've just done STP-NOT with EMT in First Class and didn't see or hear the guard once. This is unfortunately quite common on all TOCs.

That's no criticism on the staffers who post here, who by definition are probably a lot more engaged with their job than most. But, there are a LOT of lazy staff out there. At all grades. The railway is the worst industry I know when it comes to disengaged staff. Even worse than the civil service!

 

[highdyke]

That's no criticism on the staffers who post here, who by definition are probably a lot more engaged with their job than most. But, there are a LOT of lazy staff out there. At all grades. The railway is the worst industry I know when it comes to disengaged staff. Even worse than the civil service!

I'd agree with that. There was one location, where the staff used to boast about not given a damn, the less you cared, the more you were respected. You have never seen such waste in all your life as on the railways. It amuses me they think they are commercial.

 

[PHILIPE]

https://twitter.com/SouthernRailUK/status/763362361122103296

http://www.southernrailway.com/southern/news/rmt-rail-strike-suspended-for-talks/

strike suspended..

Already posted correctly on the Southern Strike thread:-

www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=129551

 

[DarloRich]

Perception of "unfair in the work place" is not a one-sided scenario and should be viewed as having many facets to that vision. Others may well see it in a different light. No-one forces an employee to stay where they are unhappy. The employee is still the sole arbiter where he/she should ply their trade. "Big Brother" is not there to force acquiescence to the provision of work in any sector, thankfully.

Have you ever watched the original 1927 version of the Fritz Lang film film "Metropolis" which features a highly stylised futuristic city that exists above a bleak soul-less underground that is populated by whole tranches of mistreated workers?

I will, if I may, boil down your response to like it or lump it.

Lets move on slightly from that position to explore that point further. How, for instance, should the employee (who in your ideal world is bereft of union support) challenge his manager who is behaving appallingly and against company policy towards him? Perhaps he is being discriminated against in some way, or subject to an unjust threat of termination of employment or deprived parental leave or any number of the situations union reps deal with in the work place everyday.

Please try to consider your response from the position of the employee trying to take on someone in a senior position who holds almost ultimate power over thier employment prospects rather than the senior manger with the ability to move from one well remunerated job to another with ease.

If you include commission and overtime yes.

I've just done STP-NOT with EMT in First Class and didn't see or hear the guard once. This is unfortunately quite common on all TOCs.

That's no criticism on the staffers who post here, who by definition are probably a lot more engaged with their job than most. But, there are a LOT of lazy staff out there. At all grades. The railway is the worst industry I know when it comes to disengaged staff. Even worse than the civil service!

But why are the staff so disengaged? I am sure the unions are to blame but perhaps you can suggest some other reasons.

 

[plastictaffy]

Inter City ones 40k plus, not saying they're not worth it just stating facts

I am, I guess, classed as an intercity guard, and don't earn 40k!! My flat is a fartful less than 30k, but with commission, sundays and a bit of RDW, I earnt 34 and a bit last year. Virgin's Guards are on around 39 grand - but Sundays for them are compulsory, as is 12 hour movement on their roster - so if they're supposed to be on earlies one week, they can be moved up to 12 hours to put them on lates. They also have split restdays, where you might be off Wednesday, in thursday friday, off saturday, back in Sunday. My t's and c's are an awful lot better than theirs.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

But why are the staff so disengaged? I am sure the unions are to blame but perhaps you can suggest some other reasons.

Because a lot of TOC's treat their staff like ****. LOts of other Guards just don't care, and it is poor management that they are allowed to continue to be that way. We have several Guards who don't ever come out of the cab, yet nothing is ever done. I once didn't take a machine out with me for a part of a very late turn, and got dragged in for a top notch screaming at.

 

[FordFocus]

It's no secret what the plan is, you just have to look in the right places

http://www.rssb.co.uk/library/groups-and-committees/2014-09-report-key-train-requirements.pdf

Page 47 and many other titbits.

The chickens have come home too roost.

I think every train I've signed have had door controls in the cab for potential DOO operation since the early 80s that is really nothing new.

 

[CC 72100]

We have several Guards who don't ever come out of the cab, yet nothing is ever done.

Why do you think nothing is ever done? Complete ignorance from management or are their hands equally tied in how they can 'solve' this sort of problem?

Genuine post btw, not flippant.

 

[theblackwatch]

Perception of "unfair in the work place" is not a one-sided scenario and should be viewed as having many facets to that vision. Others may well see it in a different light. No-one forces an employee to stay where they are unhappy. The employee is still the sole arbiter where he/she should ply their trade. "Big Brother" is not there to force acquiescence to the provision of work in any sector, thankfully.

Have you ever watched the original 1927 version of the Fritz Lang film film "Metropolis" which features a highly stylised futuristic city that exists above a bleak soul-less underground that is populated by whole tranches of mistreated workers?

That's an interesting way you think people should protest.

 

[DarloRich]

Why do you think nothing is ever done? Complete ignorance from management or are their hands equally tied in how they can 'solve' this sort of problem?

Genuine post btw, not flippant.

you solve it by using the agreed performance management process ensuring you follow that process exactly.

 

[plastictaffy]

Why do you think nothing is ever done? Complete ignorance from management or are their hands equally tied in how they can 'solve' this sort of problem?

Genuine post btw, not flippant.

Ignorance mainly. Fairly recently, my manager made a remark in passing that another conductor manager had emailed her (not me, mind!!) mentioning that he didn't see me pass through my train. She didn't make a thing of it, knowing that I walk trains and knowing that I regularly pay in tidy amounts of money - she was purely passing on an observation. I replied with my 'observation' about other Guards rarely coming out of cabs and never walking trains, to which she replied, yes, I know, but you know what (aforementioned manager) is like, he doesn't like to rock the boat.......

 

[CC 72100]

you solve it by using the agreed performance management process ensuring you follow that process exactly.

I don't disagree; I would presume that any company worth its weight in salt would have a performance management policy, and also those managed by the policy aware of what they are expected to do as part of their role - so why isn't it being used? (again hypothetical)

Originally Posted by plastictaffy

Ignorance mainly. Fairly recently, my manager made a remark in passing that another conductor manager had mentioned that he didn't see me pass through my train. She didn't make a thing of it, knowing that I walk trains and knowing that I regularly pay in tidy amounts of money - she was purely passing on an observation. I replied with my 'observation' about other Guards rarely coming out of cabs and never walking trains, to which she replied, yes, I know, but you know what (aforementioned manager) is like, he doesn't like to rock the boat.......

Surely as a manager your job is to get the best out of your team, and rocking the boat/upsetting an individual/getting somebody in for a chat is one of the ways you improve people who aren't delivering. Presumably there are managers who feel unable to act for whatever reason; they must surely know what is going on out there.

And if they genuinely have no interest in doing so then you'd have to seriously question their motivation (Again possibly a reason?)

 

[plastictaffy]

Unfortunately it's difficult for them as well, mind you, due to the fact that revenue is a secondary part of my JD. The main part of my job is to ensure the train is despatched correctly, open and close the doors at stations and generally ensure the service is run in a safe and timely manner. If a manager questions why a Guard hasn't sold a ticket for x amount of time, he's just going to say it hasn't been safe in his opinion to walk trains.

 

[ComUtoR]

I've just done STP-NOT with EMT in First Class and didn't see or hear the guard once. This is unfortunately quite common on all TOCs.

That's no criticism on the staffers who post here, who by definition are probably a lot more engaged with their job than most. But, there are a LOT of lazy staff out there.

I do wonder why there is always an assumption that the lack of visibility of a member of staff automatically means they are lazy and in the back cab somewhere.

Just maybe, they are busy doing something else.