Southern DOO: ASLEF members vote 79.1% for revised deal

[Sprinter153]

It's not really very fair if people that put very little effort into their careers or those that are on benefits, exceed the wealth of those that run business or have worked hard to attain high-level skills..

So you're saying that every Guard has put little effort into their career? That's a wee bit of a sweeping statement.

 

[highdyke]

So you're saying that every Guard has put little effort into their career? That's a wee bit of a sweeping statement.

No I didn't say that, and re-wrote it all about 5 times not to appear offensive about delicate matters. A Guards or Drivers job is no walk in the park, I have no problem about people getting paid whatever they are worth. I am concerned about the railway system as a whole paying themselves so much, that the network becomes unsustainable.

 

[DT611]

Meaning they are paid more than their market worth?

Depends of you feel a Graduate decision maker with a masters degree or a Chartered Engineer is worth less than a Guard. If you do then fine, I'd argue why bother with student loans, years of education and complex mathematics/economics and just apply for a role that is massively oversubscribed and you can learn in a few months, leaving gaps skills gaps in the economy because nobody is motivated to fill those roles. It all depends on demand in the end and to a certain extent there is not perfect competition, I'm not saying there is no demand for people with certain skills and we don't need them, or the should be low paid. Ultimately the market will govern the salary of someone based on ability to provide goods and services and if those skills are in demand.

This is the problem with the politics of the left, rather letting markets decide, true worth is distorted by monopolies, protectionism, cartels and barriers to entry. That said there is a lot wrong with the market system and it's ability to channel wealth to those with money and opportunity, it's not a system that especially appreciates externalalities with complete precision either. A certain amount of tweaks to the taxation system and regulation is fine, it's wholesale manipulation of the market by vested interests I disagree with at either end of the social spectrum. An ideal country/market/system of governance works on status quo, once people start tinkering at either end, trouble is not far away. Though you may be surprised to learn I am far more against people at the top end that dodge tax, lobby governments, ignore social responsibility than anything at the other end, because if the rich get ever richer that will bring down all of society, where's if people at the other end do okay, I'm less bothered, it's more the well being of the squeezed middle. Historically once you destroy the middle class in any society, the economy really does tank.

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Yes it can don't talk rubbish: no person, company, organisation, or the world has unlimited resources and most activities are not 100% risk free. There's no point in spending £10 billion to save 1 life if 100 lives are lost elsewhere.

No it can't.
They're is no point in removing the gards from the train considering they're will be no benefit in doing so. The market more or less does decide what wage someone gets. supporting and implementing monopolies, protectionism, cartels and barriers to entry are not exclusive to the left.

 

[313103]

Post Deleted

 

[ComUtoR]

Oh by the way my salary is £22,000 which is £5,000 less then the average wage of the UK

Benefit Caps from autumn 2016

From autumn 2016 the cap will depend on where you live in the UK.
Outside Greater London

If you live outside a Greater London borough, the cap will be:

£384.62 per week (£20,000 a year) if you’re in a couple, whether your children live with you or not
£384.62 per week (£20,000 a year) if you’re single and your children live with you
£257.69 per week (£13,400 a year) if you’re single and you don’t have children, or your children don’t live with you

Inside Greater London

If you live in a Greater London borough, the cap will be:

£442.31 per week (£23,000 a year) if you’re in a couple, whether your children live with you or not
£442.31 per week (£23,000 a year) if you’re single and your children live with you
£296.35 per week (£15,410 a year) if you’re single and you don’t have children, or your children don’t live with you

Makes you wonder...

 

[AlterEgo]

Saving someone's life cannot be quantified in monitary terms. when you go down that route then as a society you are finished.



I will repeat, Saving someone's life cannot be quantified in monitary terms. when you go down that route then as a society you are finished.



Unnecessarily making something less safe has a potentially greater cost if something was to happen, then the monitary cost of the current situation. The railway isn't going to get less expensive just because the gard goes.

Lives have been quantified in monetary terms for a very long time. Ask a risk analyst.

You could argue that if the train was to crash and obstruct a junction or a flat crossing, you should have more than one guard on board as there may be three or four directions to walk in order to place detonators. Of course, this would be very rare and therefore you don't employ extra guards in case of this eventuality.

It's about risk, probability and cost.

Cost is an important factor, think of it a bit like the fire triangle - requiring all three components.

 

[infobleep]

Why should the unions have sway over the direction of the industry, when passengers don't?

OK then, let's include some passengers too. We can't include them all, just as we can't include every Union member of person working for the DfT or government.

If we are really being democratic, perhaps we can include some opposition politicans too. Make it cross party.

Anyone else I may have missed?

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk
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Couple of questions: How much do you think it is worth paying out per life/injury in guards wages, £1 million, £10 million, £50 million or unlimited funds? If the cost was £50 million and the cost was greater per year than lives saved what would you do?

Also if they didn't meet their costs in terns of value added, what would you propose? Productivity, redeployment?

Somebody has done the economics behind these questions, because everything has a cost. The answer to the above and the solutions are absolute heart of this debate. Job creation schemes are all very well, but that's a cost on the economy of the railway and society, money that could be better spent elsewhere creating jobs and saving lives if the sums don't add-up.

So who is creating these jobs and are the staff suitable for them? If not who is making such staff suitable?

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk
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Nope evidence as a whole. Of course railway staff have safety drilled into them, rightly so, but everything does have a cost. It's no good making the railway so expensive people go be less safe car.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/pol...y-is-a-an-ideological-joyride-say-Tories.html

Well Jeremy wants to create a people's railway, I suspect he'll go for the system Ford Focus wants. Everyone will be involved, but the people.

Ironically in China and Russia you cannot strike, because the experts in the state have your best wishes at heart.

They also have capital punishment in China and their human rights record. Well there is a reason why some people are calling on Teresa May to bring this up when she meets the Chinese this week.

I could also mention Russia's laws on homosexuality and I'm sure there are other things besides.

I'm not saying we are perfect, just that I wouldn't look to China and Russia for a model of staff well being.

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

 

[AlterEgo]

OK then, let's include some passengers too. We can't include them all, just as we can't include every Union member of person working for the DfT or government.

If we are really being democratic, perhaps we can I crude some opposition politicans too. Make it cross party.

Anyone else I may have missed?

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

Or, perhaps the future of the industry is a matter for the DfT and the relevant TOCs. Unions have their place, but they shouldn't be calling the shots when it comes to industrial strategy.

 

[DarloRich]

Meaning they are paid more than their market worth?

Depends of you feel a Graduate decision maker with a masters degree or a Chartered Engineer is worth less than a Guard. If you do then fine, I'd argue why bother with student loans, years of education and complex mathematics/economics and just apply for a role that is massively oversubscribed and you can learn in a few months, leaving gaps skills gaps in the economy because nobody is motivated to fill those roles. It all depends on demand in the end and to a certain extent there is not perfect competition, I'm not saying there is no demand for people with certain skills and we don't need them, or the should be low paid. Ultimately the market will govern the salary of someone based on ability to provide goods and services and if those skills are in demand.

This is the problem with the politics of the left, rather letting markets decide, true worth is distorted by monopolies, protectionism, cartels and barriers to entry. That said there is a lot wrong with the market system and it's ability to channel wealth to those with money and opportunity, it's not a system that especially appreciates externalalities with complete precision either. A certain amount of tweaks to the taxation system and regulation is fine, it's wholesale manipulation of the market by vested interests I disagree with at either end of the social spectrum. An ideal country/market/system of governance works on status quo, once people start tinkering at either end, trouble is not far away. Though you may be surprised to learn I am far more against people at the top end that dodge tax, lobby governments, ignore social responsibility than anything at the other end, because if the rich get ever richer that will bring down all of society, where's if people at the other end do okay, I'm less bothered, it's more the well being of the squeezed middle. Historically once you destroy the middle class in any society, the economy really does tank.

Hang on: surely the market has decided the level of wages for guards and drivers. Have they not used thier position, skills and "power" to obtain a good wage. Is that not what the market economy is all about?

BTW has the market not decided the value of wages for chartered engineers? If guards and drivers were not worth the money the TOC's would sack them all and hire people on £4.50 per hour. Surely the point about entry level graduate jobs is that they have the potential to earn more in the long term than the guard or driver. That is the investment you make in your education. For instance, i couldn't give up my job now and become a train driver or guard without taking a pay cut and whilst in the medium term I may earn more than I do I now long term i will learn more in my current job, all things being equal even considering student debts.

My problem with conservative politics is the use of envy and jealousy to divide people and attack those who they feel should be below them in the natural order of things. It is interesting that the same tools of monopolies, protectionism, cartels and barriers to entry are used by the people at the top to ensure wealth stays within thier little club!

 

[infobleep]

Yes it is a generalisation but the fact is for too many that is all they do. And invisibility is visible to all pax. I want two staff on all trains but the plain fact is that too many haven't done the rest of their grade any favours at all. Yes I have said this before but for me it's the crux of the matter. Southern is a franchise used by masses of civil servants. If they pass the usual knot of platform staff at Victoria who seem to spend all their time chatering and then get to Brighton without seeing any on board staff I think it would be natural to ask just what they are paying some staff for? It's not class struggle it's at bottom an old fashioned dispute about restrictive practices and productivity of the kind that made everyday life so blasted misrable back in the sixties and seventies. A period some union officers seem to yearn for.

They wouldn't happen to have been travelling on a DOO service to Brighton or one so packed that hardly a passenger van get through it?

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Or, perhaps the future of the industry is a matter for the DfT and the relevant TOCs. Unions have their place, but they shouldn't be calling the shots when it comes to industrial strategy.

Why only the DfT and TOCs? What makes them more special than their paying customers, aka passengers?

Would you prefer the public not to be consulates on franchise tender documents or anything else related to the railways?

That isn't the modern way. The modern way is surely to try and be inclusive. For me. Inclusive includes staff.

I have been involved in a restructure and some of our views were taken on board and all views responded to, even if not taken on board. I'm not a member of a union either.

One change taken on board was a regrading of some of the new job profiles set out in the consultation because staff applying for such roles felt there skills were greater than others in other roles on the same grade. The job I'd likely apply for would be on the equivalent original grade.

Did that bother me that they would get risen and not me? No because I understood the reasons and thought it was fair.

This of course cost more money but was agreed because it was consider fair. No unions were involved I seem to remember. Just staff views taken on board.

Some other ideas were not taken on though so it wasn't like they agreed everything full stop.

I think that's a good model to work towards in any industry, including railways. Others may disagree.

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

 

[AlterEgo]

Why only the DfT and TOCs? What makes them more special than their paying customers?

It was a question, not a statement.

 

[infobleep]

It was a question, not a statement.

Unfortunately you missed out a question mark. Probably a typo, I'm good at those, so it read it as a statement.

Anyway I edited my post to explain better my views.

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

 

[DarloRich]

Yesterday evening I came across a link to a blog from a former Conservative parliamentary candidate ( shared by someone who may be a member here) who had his say on the Southern dispute. I provide a link to along with a quote section:

http://www.jameshockney.com/strike-to-cost-london-economy-100-million/

Incredibly the strike came about due to just 306 union members voting for it. Equating to over £300k lost to the London economy per union member

I challenged the author several times on twitter to confirm whether, or not, this strike ballot met the new threshold under the TU bill, even if it hasn't commenced yet. He was unwilling to do so and then blocked me when I provided him a link to the RMT website showing it did. His only response was "what about the commuters"

What annoys me is the disingenuous approach taken by conservatives to any dispute, thier unwillingness to defend or explain thier position and thier pretense that the commuter is foremost in thier thinking. The figures for this ballot were over the required threshold within the TU bill so the argument is that only 306 union members voted for action.

There was no response when I asked what number of union members was an acceptable number to allow strike action or that if his main problem was that awful oiks should be allowed strike in the first place and should know thier place!

It appears that dissenting views are not welcome!

 

[OuterDistant]

Incredibly the strike came about due to just 306 union members voting for it. Equating to over £300k lost to the London economy per union member

There's an easy solution for that: every train should have ten drivers. That way, those figures start to look a lot better

 

[ainsworth74]

Saving someone's life cannot be quantified in monitary terms. when you go down that route then as a society you are finished.

A bit late in the day for that! The 'value' of a life is used day in and day out when it comes to deciding upon acceptable levels of risk!

Makes you wonder...

About what?

 

[Tetchytyke]

What annoys me is the disingenuous approach taken by conservatives to any dispute, thier unwillingness to defend or explain thier position and thier pretense that the commuter is foremost in thier thinking. The figures for this ballot were over the required threshold within the TU bill so the argument is that only 306 union members voted for action.

This is what I find most frustrating about this whole dispute.

The guards were quite happy turning up to work and getting paid for the job they want to do. And then GTR decide that they don't want guards anymore, and they're going to sack them all, re-employing them in a totally different role with no guarantees as to the longevity of it.

The guards were obviously going to dispute this, and so they have.

I genuinely cannot understand the thinking that says the dispute is all the guards' fault, that the RMT are to blame for all the disruption, and that it is the RMT's role to "think about the commuters". What about GTR's role in all of this? They're the ones who kicked the dispute off, regardless of whether or not you think they were correct to.

It appears that dissenting views are not welcome!

The Tories' main method of discussion is to block people on Twitter. If that doesn't work then they fabricate "death threats", like Lucy Allan MP did.

Depends of you feel a Graduate decision maker with a masters degree or a Chartered Engineer is worth less than a Guard.

I think it depends on the job.

I seriously doubt that Piero McCarthy, who came through TfL's graduate scheme and then has bounced through a different middle management role every six months ever since, is earning less now than he was as a guard with SWT.

As for "chartered engineers", that again depends on the job. I have two friends (both women, who typically get paid less than men in engineering) who are chartered engineers, and both of them are earning at least ten grand a year more than a Southern guard will be earning.

If we believe in the market (as GTR do- "the market calls for efficiency savings") then the market will pay someone what they are worth. I could just as easily whine about how Paul Pogba will earn in a day and a half what a Southern guard earns in a year; it would be diverting but irrelevant.

 

[HH]

Oh by the way my salary is £22,000 which is £5,000 less then the average wage of the UK (according to quote from a government paper posted by someone further up)

Personally I don't think anyone in the UK should be paid as little as £22k for a full time job, but I should point out a few things with regard to this:

1. Compared to the average person on the average wage, the railway pension is a lot better deal than they would get with, generally, over 15% paid in by the employer and a final salary-related pension.

2. Tax-free Free Travel is also a pretty good benefit to many.

3. Average salaries for the whole country are a bit misleading, as they will include salaries from areas with much higher averages and those from areas with lower averages.

Surveys show that annual full-time gross median earnings for Swansea residents (£21,577) are lower than the UK average. The annual gross median earnings for those who work in Swansea are even lower, only £18,993.

As a whole railway salaries are higher than those for similar work. It's why there have been a number of disputes around the use of agency staff. There'd hardly be any point in employing them if they cost the same.

 

[Bellbell]

Is my worth as an employee dictated by my educational attainment then? Because I have a degree, and have held 'graduate' jobs. An awfully high number of graduate jobs require nothing from the degree itself, it just serves as a way of sifting applications and, dare I say it, justifying salaries. My last 'graduate' job was interesting and enjoyable but could have been done by many people who don't hold degrees. I believe wholeheartedly in education for education's sake but successive governments have dumbed degrees down to the point where the simple fact of being a graduate simply cannot be used as an argument to be paid a higher salary than someone without.

 

[highdyke]

But what you have said which is a sweeping generalisation is that all the guards do is sit in the back cab!

I'm not aware I said ALL guards sit in the back cab I certainly didn't mean to imply it. Obviously that isn't the case.

Makes you wonder...

It's worse than that I know of people that get free flats in the most expensive areas of London, free travel, and 2-300 a week spending money on top. The back of the envelope calculations I came up with was they were on the equivent of £50-60K!

I'm not saying we are perfect, just that I wouldn't look to China and Russia for a model of staff well being.

Definitely not, although I'm not sure whether some people are aware but officials from far left unions have visited Russia and Cuba as they are some sort of future model to be admired...

Hang on: surely the market has decided the level of wages for guards and drivers. Have they not used thier position, skills and "power" to obtain a good wage. Is that not what the market economy is all about?

To a certain extent it is market rates, with the TOCs trading between limited quantities of staff. Although whether these rates and productivity are distorted by strike action, or the TOCs not recruiting enough staff (doing things on the cheap for them), general barriers to entry (IE no third party training and certification) and the ability to sack and replace staff is maybe the point. There is no shortages of candidates, so it begs the question why the rates are so high - not saying they are all suitable!

My problem with conservative politics is the use of envy and jealousy to divide people and attack those who they feel should be below them in the natural order of things. It is interesting that the same tools of monopolies, protectionism, cartels and barriers to entry are used by the people at the top to ensure wealth stays within thier little club!

It's a problem at both ends, look at the press releases from the RMT talking about profits, big wages of managers, working class solidarity. The politics of envy is well and truly alive there. I saw a comment in one of the papers yesterday, no idea if it was from a Union member, that Southern commuters deserved everything they got, Karma for ripping off the people that create the real wealth!

 

[Tetchytyke]

It's a problem at both ends, look at the press releases from the RMT talking about profits, big wages of managers

But comments about David Brown's 10% pay rise and £2,160,000 bonus this year are entirely relevant, given that Go-Ahead are claiming that they "must" achieve efficiency savings and that they have "no choice" but to make the changes.

There are approximately 2,160,000 efficiency savings that we could make before we start sacking people...

I don't begrudge people earning big sacks of cash, it isn't "the politics of envy" for me. I'm very comfortable with people being extremely rich. What I am not comfortable with is people who are extremely rich forcing other people out of work in order to give themselves a BONUS which is the equivalent of 80 nurses' annual salary.

Even the Daily Mail- a newspaper which isn't exactly a hot bed of international communism- think Brown's pay and bonus to be obscene given what is happening to GTR's commuters.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...LLION-pay-deal-branded-national-disgrace.html

Boss of Britain's worst-performing train company is awarded £2.1MILLION pay deal branded 'a national disgrace'
David Brown, boss of Go Ahead, got £2.16million bonus, accounts show
Despite performance, his overall pay package in 2015 rose by 10 per cent
Go Ahead rail franchise GTR voted Britain's worst rail operator in 2015
It had satisfaction rating of 46 per cent and 62,000 delays in a single year

The boss of Britain's worst rail company subjecting passengers to daily delays has been awarded a £2million pay deal.

David Brown, chief executive of Go-Ahead, saw a 10 per cent rise in his overall package for June 2014-2015, despite the poor performance of its rail franchises.

It also more than doubled from £924,000 the previous year, and £36.7 million was paid out to shareholders in dividends, up from £34.7 million the year before.

The huge huge payouts and increase in pay package revealed were branded 'a national disgrace' by a union boss.

David Brown, chief executive of Go Ahead, got a bonus of £2.1million and saw his overall pay package rise by 10 per cent in 2015, despite his company's poor performance in the eyes of passengers

Go Ahead, which runs a number of companies including GTR, the operator of rail franchises Southeastern (pictured), Thameslink and Great Northern, was voted the worst operator of 2015

After the figures emerged, one commuter write on Twitter: 'Thank you for fleecing the entire commuting public.'

Mr Brown is the boss of Go-Ahead, which runs a number of companies including GTR, the operator of rail franchises Southeastern, Thameslink and Great Northern.

A survey by Which? found that passengers voted it the worst rail company in the country, with a satisfaction rating of just 46 per cent.

GTR also had the most delays and cancellations caused by a lack of train staff between April 1 2013 and December 12 last year with 62,000 incidents, according to Office of Rail and Road figures.

But last year, it warned passengers to expect three more years of misery until renovations to London Bridge station were complete.

RMT union boss Mick Cash branded the salary a 'national disgrace' yesterday

Despite performance suffering, pre-tax profits at the transport operator climbed 11.7 per cent in the year to the end of June to £96.6 million, for the company as a whole, which also runs bus operators.

Revenues were up 19 per cent to to £3.2 billion, and the company carried a record number of passengers on its rail franchises.

At the time, Mr Brown defended the company's track record of high profits and poor customer satisfaction, claiming that its margin on rail was just 1 per cent.

Yet part of his bonus was due to the fact 'rail division profit was ahead of initial expectations' and for 'successful mobilisation of GTR, the UK's largest rail franchise'.

But talking of his bonus today, RMT union boss Mick Cash said: 'It is truly shocking that part of the bonuses paid by the British passenger to the bosses of GTR is down to their 'successful mobilisation' of the current franchise.

'Commuters paying up to £5000 a year for these failing service will be rightly furious. These bonuses are truly money for old rope.

'RMT has revealed that GTR are already being allowed to increase cancellations by a third to 32,000 under its new contract with the Government and now we find that the top brass at this basket-case franchise are on a one way ticket to the bank as well.

'This situation is a national disgrace and on Wednesday RMT will be at the company HQ in central London demanding an end to the attack on the guards, safety and other front-line staff and the ending of the GTR debacle.'

 

[highdyke]

But comments about David Brown's 10% pay rise and £2,160,000 bonus this year are entirely relevant, given that Go-Ahead are claiming that they "must" achieve efficiency savings and that they have "noi choice" but to make the changes.

There are approximately 2,160,000 efficiency savings that we could make before we start sacking people...

You won't get any disagreement from me that some company CEOs have wage multiples that are far too high and the division between rich and poor is fuelling some people to elect far left and right politicians who will ultimately bankrupt nations or tear societies apart.

 

[313103]

Sorry folks i have had to delete my earlier post, i hadnt realised that i have infraction against me for posting off topic, so as not to get a banning order i have deleted the post, and will strictly stay ON topic until the year end. Thanks if you replied.

 

[DarloRich]

BBC: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-37026430

A five-day strike on Southern trains will be suspended on Thursday and Friday if the company agrees to new talks without pre-conditions, the RMT union has said.

Hopefully we can have some proper, open and honest talks and reach a solution that can be sold to all sides as a win! After all talking things out is much better than shouting at each other

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Is my worth as an employee dictated by my educational attainment then? Because I have a degree, and have held 'graduate' jobs. An awfully high number of graduate jobs require nothing from the degree itself, it just serves as a way of sifting applications and, dare I say it, justifying salaries. My last 'graduate' job was interesting and enjoyable but could have been done by many people who don't hold degrees. I believe wholeheartedly in education for education's sake but successive governments have dumbed degrees down to the point where the simple fact of being a graduate simply cannot be used as an argument to be paid a higher salary than someone without.

What was the political party whose leader had an aspiration of a 50% student enrolment in the University system without the slightest thought of the number of graduate jobs that would be filled on an annual basis as a result of that particular aspiration?

At least my First in Mathematics, obtained 50 years ago in 1966 at Manchester University, combined my undoubted mathematical skills to a logical thought process that proved its worth in my working life up to my retirement in 2010.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

BBC: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-37026430
Hopefully we can have some proper, open and honest talks and reach a solution that can be sold to all sides as a win! After all talking things out is much better than shouting at each other

Of course, there will also be no preconditions on the RMT side, will there, so a level playing field will ensue?

 

[Wolfie]

Meaning they are paid more than their market worth?

Depends of you feel a Graduate decision maker with a masters degree or a Chartered Engineer is worth less than a Guard. If you do then fine, I'd argue why bother with student loans, years of education and complex mathematics/economics and just apply for a role that is massively oversubscribed and you can learn in a few months, leaving gaps skills gaps in the economy because nobody is motivated to fill those roles. It all depends on demand in the end and to a certain extent there is not perfect competition, I'm not saying there is no demand for people with certain skills and we don't need them, or the should be low paid. Ultimately the market will govern the salary of someone based on ability to provide goods and services and if those skills are in demand.

This is the problem with the politics of the left, rather letting markets decide, true worth is distorted by monopolies, protectionism, cartels and barriers to entry. That said there is a lot wrong with the market system and it's ability to channel wealth to those with money and opportunity, it's not a system that especially appreciates externalalities with complete precision either. A certain amount of tweaks to the taxation system and regulation is fine, it's wholesale manipulation of the market by vested interests I disagree with at either end of the social spectrum. An ideal country/market/system of governance works on status quo, once people start tinkering at either end, trouble is not far away. Though you may be surprised to learn I am far more against people at the top end that dodge tax, lobby governments, ignore social responsibility than anything at the other end, because if the rich get ever richer that will bring down all of society, where's if people at the other end do okay, I'm less bothered, it's more the well being of the squeezed middle. Historically once you destroy the middle class in any society, the economy really does tank.

Yes it can don't talk rubbish: no person, company, organisation, or the world has unlimited resources and most activities are not 100% risk free. There's no point in spending £10 billion to save 1 life if 100 lives are lost elsewhere.

Ah..it all becomes clear, you are an unfettered free-marketer. If safety costs then don't bother. Thankfully that unfettered attitude died in this country at about the same time we stopped sending children up chimneys. If you want to liberalise safety then lets adopt the US model and allow the courts, just like the US does, to hit errant companies with punative damages (and certainly don't offer them a taxpayer financial guarantee).

When a death which could have been prevented costs GoVia say £100M (look at some of the figures awarded by US juries against car manufacturers and tobacco firms) methinks their appetite for risk might change. I would go further in such an environment and make senior executives personally criminally liable for the decisions that they take too.....

Lives have been quantified in monetary terms for a very long time. Ask a risk analyst.

It's about risk, probability and cost.

Cost is an important factor, think of it a bit like the fire triangle - requiring all three components.

I fully agree. Of course the cost element can be changed by lots of factors.....

Not the 300,000 passengers then? The people that pay the wages of all involved? Maybe the Trades disputes act needs reviewing as well.

I don't suppose the RMT has ever considered that people who have lost their jobs or had their business damaged, missed a hospital appointment and their relative died, or was injured hitchhiking might mount a legal challenge or someone might start a petition getting a review. The dispute must be costing millions a day. I hope this doesn't happen, but it's only a matter of time before reasonable people lose patience.

http://www.itv.com/news/meridian/up...es-or-stay-at-home-in-second-day-of-strikes/?

Congratulations for writing the most pathetic input I have ever seen on this forum.

Firstly TUs don't take industrial action lightly. Secondly according to you all of the fault lies with RMT - that must be so if you say that people will take action against RMT and no action whatsoever against GTR (or their master DfT). Thirdly, on what grounds exactly would people litigate against RMT? Show me the slightest evidence of any contract existing between passengers and a TU...

Yes they could write petitions but, to quote a former boss of mine, SFW....

 

[Bellbell]

What was the political party whose leader had an aspiration of a 50% student enrolment in the University system without the slightest thought of the number of graduate jobs that would be filled on an annual basis as a result of that particular aspiration?

At least my First in Mathematics, obtained 50 years ago in 1966 at Manchester University, combined my undoubted mathematical skills to a logical thought process that proved its worth in my working life up to my retirement in 2010.
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Of course, there will also be no preconditions on the RMT side, will there, so a level playing field will ensue?

Shall I buzz in for 10? What do I win when I correctly name the party? If I also answer the question on strike pay do I get a special prize?

I've seen you mention once or twice your First in Mathematics, obtained 50 years ago in 1966 at Manchester University. That's great I also have a first, gained much more recently, at a different university. I don't think either of those facts enhances the debate about graduate vs non graduate pay though.

 

[Tetchytyke]

You won't get any disagreement from me that some company CEOs have wage multiples that are far too high and the division between rich and poor is fuelling some people to elect far left and right politicians who will ultimately bankrupt nations or tear societies apart.

Indeed.

So why your urge to sue the RMT for not turning up to work rather than, say, sueing David Brown and his multi-million-pound bonus for making changes to the service that resulted in the service not being provided?

There are two sides in every dispute, yet it's amazing how it's only ever the RMT who get the flack.

 

[Wolfie]

Hang on: surely the market has decided the level of wages for guards and drivers. Have they not used thier position, skills and "power" to obtain a good wage. Is that not what the market economy is all about?

BTW has the market not decided the value of wages for chartered engineers? If guards and drivers were not worth the money the TOC's would sack them all and hire people on £4.50 per hour. Surely the point about entry level graduate jobs is that they have the potential to earn more in the long term than the guard or driver. That is the investment you make in your education. For instance, i couldn't give up my job now and become a train driver or guard without taking a pay cut and whilst in the medium term I may earn more than I do I now long term i will learn more in my current job, all things being equal even considering student debts.

My problem with conservative politics is the use of envy and jealousy to divide people and attack those who they feel should be below them in the natural order of things. It is interesting that the same tools of monopolies, protectionism, cartels and barriers to entry are used by the people at the top to ensure wealth stays within thier little club!

Spot on!...and I write that as someone with post-graduate qualifications and membership of a professional institution...

Is my worth as an employee dictated by my educational attainment then? Because I have a degree, and have held 'graduate' jobs. An awfully high number of graduate jobs require nothing from the degree itself, it just serves as a way of sifting applications and, dare I say it, justifying salaries. My last 'graduate' job was interesting and enjoyable but could have been done by many people who don't hold degrees. I believe wholeheartedly in education for education's sake but successive governments have dumbed degrees down to the point where the simple fact of being a graduate simply cannot be used as an argument to be paid a higher salary than someone without.

Qualifications get you an interview or just possibly a job. Once you have that job you should be judged on your performance.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Shall I buzz in for 10? What do I win when I correctly name the party?

Do we get special bonus points if we name the political party who went beyond that and took all limits off student numbers, leaving it up to universities to recruit as many people as they bloomin' well want?

Do we extra special bonus points if we name the political party who thought that most universities would charge the minimum they were allowed to, rather than the maximum?

And do we get more bonus points if we name the political party who got their mathematics (obviously not from Manchester) so badly wrong that they now can "no longer afford" to help pay for university for doctors, nurses, or disabled people.

 

[Bellbell]

Let's have a Brucey bonus all round!