Southern DOO: ASLEF members vote 79.1% for revised deal

[SpacePhoenix]

Now what would have happened if it were a Govia run services were there no guards or in 10 years time technology was much the same and there was no OBS staff under the next franchise? Would a passenger have pulled the emergency cord outside of the station rather than getting someone to find the guard? I don't know how the guard was alerted to the problem today but the train did arrive in the station as the guard made his announcement rather than after.

What class of unit was it? If it was a Desiro then someone might have activated the Passcomm. I would expect that the guard would have been keyed into a guards panel so the driver would have been able to contact him via the active guards panel

 

[highdyke]

What I wish would happen is that it's nationally discussed between the government, RDG and the unions as a way forward.

Not the 300,000 passengers then? The people that pay the wages of all involved? Maybe the Trades disputes act needs reviewing as well.

I don't suppose the RMT has ever considered that people who have lost their jobs or had their business damaged, missed a hospital appointment and their relative died, or was injured hitchhiking might mount a legal challenge or someone might start a petition getting a review. The dispute must be costing millions a day. I hope this doesn't happen, but it's only a matter of time before reasonable people lose patience.

http://www.itv.com/news/meridian/up...es-or-stay-at-home-in-second-day-of-strikes/?

I think the train catching fire and passengers evacuating themselves onto the track because there was no announcements from the driver is a prime example of why you need two members of staff on a train. Any comments from the pro DOO ppl?

Not until the report is published.

 

[sarahj]

Not the 300,000 passengers then? The people that pay the wages of all involved? Maybe the Trades disputes act needs reviewing as well.



Not until the report is published.

The report will be like the rest of them, door traps, incidents, fault, etc. Never asking the question 'if there had been a conductor, would this have happened, or would the outcome have been different?

Until you ask the question, you don't get the answer.

 

[JonathanH]

If that is the case, how will revenue protection be carried out, given that they are also de-staffing stations?

They aren't destaffing stations - I got the impression that it is just ticket office staff with the implication that ticket gates will be permanently on manned by a combination of the former ticket office staff and existing gate line personnel and those staff will be able to sell some tickets but most people will be directed to machines.

For example, Reigate will become staffed from first to last train. This means the ticket gates can be on the whole time (although I think the staff might get a bit bored on Sundays)

 

[AlterEgo]

I think the train catching fire and passengers evacuating themselves onto the track because there was no announcements from the driver is a prime example of why you need two members of staff on a train. Any comments from the pro DOO ppl?

Sounds like it's fair game to comment on incidents before the report is published then...

There are many very serious incidents where the guard was simply unable to do anything to protect the train or passengers, too.

Best wait until the investigators do their job.

 

[Carlisle]

Sounds like it's fair game to comment on incidents before the report is published then...

There are many very serious incidents where the guard was simply unable to do anything to protect the train or passengers, too.

Best wait until the investigators do their job.

yes I recall the two man crew of the recent Electrostar derailment in Kent getting some criticism on this very forum for their handling of the incident

 

[JamesTT]

Just to remind people that in Southern's/GTR's very own consultation document (if you are staff you can see it on the intranet).
The target numbers of Conductors and OBS is 108 less than the current number of Conductors and RPI's combined. So that will be one way of saving costs plus restructuring the commission structure I expect will save money.

Appparently it is a franchise obligation to maintain the intended level of OBS staff, so if they do have vacancies it would be a franchise brief not to fill it surely.

 

[infobleep]

What class of unit was it? If it was a Desiro then someone might have activated the Passcomm. I would expect that the guard would have been keyed into a guards panel so the driver would have been able to contact him via the active guards panel

Indeed it was. Which may be the driver might have been involved but at least the driver didn't have to get out of the cab to help.

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk
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Just to remind people that in Southern's/GTR's very own consultation document (if you are staff you can see it on the intranet).
The target numbers of Conductors and OBS is 108 less than the current number of Conductors and RPI's combined. So that will be one way of saving costs plus restructuring the commission structure I expect will save money.

Appparently it is a franchise obligation to maintain the intended level of OBS staff, so if they do have vacancies it would be a franchise brief not to fill it surely.

It may be bit given DfT let them change their performance targets, they could do the same in this case.

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

You're looking at it the wrong way round. The trade union do not instruct the members to go on strike, the members instruct the trade union to support a strike action. We see this with the junior doctors, whose own trade union recommended that they cease strike action; the doctors voted otherwise.

So it is the union members who are the "power behind the throne" from what you seem to imply. That being so, then it will be the union members who will instruct the leaders of the trades union when it comes to making sizable financial political contributions to a left-wing socialist party such as the Trade Unionist and Social Coalition, as has occurred in the past. Am I correct in drawing a comparison to the point that you were making above?

Can I ask why the union membership did not instruct the trades union who act under their guidance why a five-day strike was not called much earlier in the dispute, drawing a comparison to the ScotRail dispute where strike action came to pass very early on there.

 

[physics34]

I agree completely. It in-fact shows these incidents happen!

As far as GTR saying the OBS role will be around until the end of the franchise. Natural Wastage will reduce numbers, it doesn't mean they have to ever recruit new OBS staff in the future!

the RMT should be HAMMERING this home...but they are not.....

...maybe because they agreed DOO in the past...in this region........WHOOPS.

 

[Domh245]

yes I recall the two man crew of the recent Electrostar derailment in Kent getting some criticism on this very forum for their handling of the incident

Wasn't that criticism mostly not for going against their training to check the rear cab for functioning GSM-R? And wasn't most of that criticism from highdyke?

 

[FordFocus]

Not the 300,000 passengers then? The people that pay the wages of all involved? Maybe the Trades disputes act needs reviewing as well.

Forgive me but when did 300,000 passengers get involved in changing staffing grades and job descriptions?

What I would propose is for industrial action to be suspended, no threats of imposition and all DOO plans put on hold. Then the unions, TOCs and government to sit around one table and negotiate a way forward for future staffing. Throw in the Horton's RSSB and change the rule if all parties agree.

 

[AlterEgo]

Forgive me but when did 300,000 passengers get involved in changing staffing grades and job descriptions?

What I would propose is for industrial action to be suspended, no threats of imposition and all DOO plans put on hold. Then the unions, TOCs and government to sit around one table and negotiate a way forward for future staffing. Throw in the Horton's RSSB and change the rule if all parties agree.

Why should the unions have sway over the direction of the industry, when passengers don't?

 

[DarloRich]

So it is the union members who are the "power behind the throne" from what you seem to imply. That being so, then it will be the union members who will instruct the leaders of the trades union when it comes to making sizable financial political contributions to a left-wing socialist party such as the Trade Unionist and Social Coalition, as has occurred in the past. Am I correct in drawing a comparison to the point that you were making above?

Can I ask why the union membership did not instruct the trades union who act under their guidance why a five-day strike was not called much earlier in the dispute, drawing a comparison to the ScotRail dispute where strike action came to pass very early on there.

Paul - for the 9 billionth time - A motion is brought to conference and voted on by delegates acting on behalf of their branch. If a majority decide to support the motion it passes and becomes policy. But you must know this.............

The direction of the strike, once approved by the members, tends to be left to the executive council to decide. They have the mandate from the membership to hold a strike and seek a settlement if one is offered. They will return to the membership and seek further instrcutions once something changes. Again you must know this........

I remain unsure what your actual point is other than fishing about for something to support your own internal hypothesis of some evil leftist conspiracy to do something indeterminate but clearly awful.

 

[FordFocus]

Why should the unions have sway over the direction of the industry, when passengers don't?

Invite Passenger Focus to the table. Although I would have thought their response to any removal of second member of staffing would be "no"

 

[highdyke]

Forgive me but when did 300,000 passengers get involved in changing staffing grades and job descriptions?

What I would propose is for industrial action to be suspended, no threats of imposition and all DOO plans put on hold. Then the unions, TOCs and government to sit around one table and negotiate a way forward for future staffing. Throw in the Horton's RSSB and change the rule if all parties agree.

It's a lot of nonsense, back to beer and sandwiches at number 10 stuff.

The RSSB provides guidance based on evidence, Charles Horton doesn't write the reports he just sits on the board with a lot of others. You forgot to mention the regulator, you should include them to make sure we're getting value for money.

I suspect you wouldn't be so keen on passengers voting on above inflation pay rises of various people based on performance...

 

[AlterEgo]

Invite Passenger Focus to the table. Although I would have thought their response to any removal of second member of staffing would be "no"

Deal, as long as they get to chip in on salaries and conditions too.

 

[DarloRich]

I suspect you wouldn't be so keen on passengers voting on above inflation pay rises of various people based on performance...

It doesn't help the Conservatives seek to demonise anyone who earns more than they think they should.................

 

[FordFocus]

Deal, as long as they get to chip in on salaries and conditions too.

I was wondering when the salary and conditions card would be played

 

[AlterEgo]

I was wondering when the salary and conditions card would be played

It's part of the picture and it's something the union negotiate on. Typically some concession is struck where a change is made in return for extra money.

In fact, the sheer cost of the staff is one of the driving forces behind the whole DOO movement. They aren't doing this just because they hate those guys in the back cab.

 

[FordFocus]

Concessions can be struck from both sides be it the DfT or unions. Concessions from Scotrail to RMT helped call off a five day strike. RMT gave the same concessions to GTR but were turned down and the strike went ahead.

 

[highdyke]

Concessions can be struck from both sides be it the DfT or unions. Concessions from Scotrail to RMT helped call off a five day strike. RMT gave the same concessions to GTR but were turned down and the strike went ahead.

Couple of questions: How much do you think it is worth paying out per life/injury in guards wages, £1 million, £10 million, £50 million or unlimited funds? If the cost was £50 million and the cost was greater per year than lives saved what would you do?

Also if they didn't meet their costs in terns of value added, what would you propose? Productivity, redeployment?

Somebody has done the economics behind these questions, because everything has a cost. The answer to the above and the solutions are absolute heart of this debate. Job creation schemes are all very well, but that's a cost on the economy of the railway and society, money that could be better spent elsewhere creating jobs and saving lives if the sums don't add-up.

 

[Carlisle]

Somebody has done the economics behind these questions, because everything has a cost. The answer to the above and the solutions are absolute heart of this debate. up.

Quite possibly, however im sure those of the opposite viewpoint will be quick to remind us what the recent referendum result confirmed re the majority of peoples opinion of Experts

 

[Dave1987]

Highdyke you are constantly talking about productivity and staff 'proving their worth', and accusing us drivers of having an 70's way of thinking etc. Need I remind you that safety is our primary concern. All drivers have safety drilled into them from day 1. Frankly productivity can go to hell if it isn't safe. If a guard saves one person from injury or death in their entire career they have proved their worth 100 times over no matter what. In my eyes your whole view around this subject comes from the point of an accountant, and that can be very very dangerous.

 

[highdyke]

Highdyke you are constantly talking about productivity and staff 'proving their worth', and accusing us drivers of having an 70's way of thinking etc. Need I remind you that safety is our primary concern. All drivers have safety drilled into them from day 1. Frankly productivity can go to hell if it isn't safe. If a guard saves one person from injury or death in their entire career they have proved their worth 100 times over no matter what. In my eyes your whole view around this subject comes from the point of an accountant, and that can be very very dangerous.

Nope evidence as a whole. Of course railway staff have safety drilled into them, rightly so, but everything does have a cost. It's no good making the railway so expensive people go be less safe car.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/pol...y-is-a-an-ideological-joyride-say-Tories.html

Well Jeremy wants to create a people's railway, I suspect he'll go for the system Ford Focus wants. Everyone will be involved, but the people.

Ironically in China and Russia you cannot strike, because the experts in the state have your best wishes at heart.

 

[Fincra5]

Nope evidence as a whole. Of course railway staff have safety drilled into them, rightly so, but everything does have a cost. It's no good making the railway so expensive people go be less safe car.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/pol...y-is-a-an-ideological-joyride-say-Tories.html

Well Jeremy wants to create a people's railway, I suspect he go for the system Ford Focus wants. Everyone will be involved, but the people.

Ironically in China and Russia you cannot strike, because the experts in the state have your best wishes at heart.

Thank god we don't live in either place is all i'd say!

 

[Philip Phlopp]

Highdyke you are constantly talking about productivity and staff 'proving their worth', and accusing us drivers of having an 70's way of thinking etc. Need I remind you that safety is our primary concern. All drivers have safety drilled into them from day 1. Frankly productivity can go to hell if it isn't safe. If a guard saves one person from injury or death in their entire career they have proved their worth 100 times over no matter what. In my eyes your whole view around this subject comes from the point of an accountant, and that can be very very dangerous.

There is a certain irony in supporting an organisational structure which sucks £50m of cash out of the railway every year and sends it into the pockets of shareholders, whilst talking about productivity and staff 'proving their worth'.

GoVia (GoAhead and Keolis) have brought the square root of sod all to the table in all the time they've been paid to run trains in the UK, it's quite the opposite, they learned all they know from the talented ex British Rail staff and ex National Bus Company staff they inherited post privatisation/deregulation.

If GoVia want to improve productivity, perhaps they could stop making new logos and branding for their company every other week.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I remain unsure what your actual point is other than fishing about for something to support your own internal hypothesis of some evil leftist conspiracy to do something indeterminate but clearly awful.

Apologies for upsetting the finely balanced equilibrium of the thread, but perhaps my way of expressing sarcasm in my own way that most forum members now seem to expect of me does tend to rankle, so I am informed.

I will settle for the answer that I am still awaiting on the date when the union strike pay was last increased, noting the fact that someone stated it was to help alleviate hardship in times such as this and ask how much the current strike pay to those in such need could actually alleviate, based on the cost of living index appertaining to the year 2016.

 

[DT611]

How much do you think it is worth paying out per life/injury in guards wages, £1 million, £10 million, £50 million or unlimited funds? If the cost was £50 million and the cost was greater per year than lives saved what would you do?

Saving someone's life cannot be quantified in monitary terms. when you go down that route then as a society you are finished.

money that could be better spent elsewhere creating jobs and saving lives if the sums don't add-up.

I will repeat, Saving someone's life cannot be quantified in monitary terms. when you go down that route then as a society you are finished.

everything does have a cost. It's no good making the railway so expensive people go be less safe car.

Unnecessarily making something less safe has a potentially greater cost if something was to happen, then the monitary cost of the current situation. The railway isn't going to get less expensive just because the gard goes.

 

[highdyke]

It doesn't help the Conservatives seek to demonise anyone who earns more than they think they should.................

Meaning they are paid more than their market worth?

Depends of you feel a Graduate decision maker with a masters degree or a Chartered Engineer is worth less than a Guard. If you do then fine, I'd argue why bother with student loans, years of education and complex mathematics/economics and just apply for a role that is massively oversubscribed and you can learn in a few months, leaving gaps skills gaps in the economy because nobody is motivated to fill those roles. It all depends on demand in the end and to a certain extent there is not perfect competition, I'm not saying there is no demand for people with certain skills and we don't need them, or the should be low paid. Ultimately the market will govern the salary of someone based on ability to provide goods and services and if those skills are in demand.

This is the problem with the politics of the left, rather letting markets decide, true worth is distorted by monopolies, protectionism, cartels and barriers to entry. That said there is a lot wrong with the market system and it's ability to channel wealth to those with money and opportunity, it's not a system that especially appreciates externalalities with complete precision either. A certain amount of tweaks to the taxation system and regulation is fine, it's wholesale manipulation of the market by vested interests I disagree with at either end of the social spectrum. An ideal country/market/system of governance works on status quo, once people start tinkering at either end, trouble is not far away. Though you may be surprised to learn I am far more against people at the top end that dodge tax, lobby governments, ignore social responsibility than anything at the other end, because if the rich get ever richer that will bring down all of society, where's if people at the other end do okay, I'm less bothered, it's more the well being of the squeezed middle. Historically once you destroy the middle class in any society, the economy really does tank.

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I will repeat, Saving someone's life cannot be quantified in monitary terms. when you go down that route then as a society you are finished.

Yes it can don't talk rubbish: no person, company, organisation, or the world has unlimited resources and most activities are not 100% risk free. There's no point in spending £10 billion to save 1 life if 100 lives are lost elsewhere.