Is the RMT out of control?

[LLivery]

Perhaps the advent of that shining star of the Labour Party's new guise, Jeremy Corbyn, as the acceptable face of hard-left leaning cohorts and the militancy now in full flow led by those stalwarts of a trades union who do not feel that the Labour Party of post-Corbyn days does indeed hark back to a stage of the days of Militant Tendency, but with the main players this time actually in a position of power (something that Derek Hatton never achieved) are all under the same cloak of a co-ordinated movement to achieve their socialist aims.

Of course, there will be the usual bleats of "the RMT are not part of the Labour Party" so one must ask why not. Was not the Labour Party established as a standard to which all trades unions could flock in terms of solidarity? Yet the RMT see themselves outside this ideal and one must ask "why" ?

Anyone looking at the situation in the country at this point of time can only imagine what socialist conspiracy is at play and who it is who is the "hidden face" of those who are instrumental in bringing this to being.

There are numerous working people in the South East who rely on the trains to transport them to and from their places of work and this current five-day strike is one where the true position of the RMT comes to the fore in totally ignoring the pressures that these commuters face in their own working life. I will never tire of reminding everyone on this website how a certain person on here showed his true colours and actually described passengers as "collateral damage"....which says it all, as far as I am concerned.

I am one who is not afraid to challenge this vision of socialist utopia and of all those concerned in attempting to achieve it by as many different methods as possible, that certain people on this website try to hide by giving it rather nice sounding humanitarian face.

I use Southern/LO for my commute depending on where I'm based that day. As a Southern commuter, I am very aware of the issues commuters face due to this strike.

However, I believe its attitudes like this which have led people from loving their jobs to people now finding it demoralising. The same goes for retail, staff in a certain department store (not John Lewis or the obvious, BHS) are totally demoralised because the care for staff has almost disappeared, and managers are too busy lining their pockets. Standing up for your rights, defending pay and wanting job protection isn't screaming out for a socialist utopia.

In every strike there are always people who shout "sack them" "they're all lazy scum" "If we don't have that, they should they". Then if they are sacked from their job for a nonsense reason, they wish they had a union to fight their corner. This is what a race to the bottom looks like, 21-25 aren't even entitled to the stupidly branded "living wage". The UK will never be a United Kingdom of Socialist Nations.

Like I've said before, I am left leaning, but no communist, I'd even struggle to be a good socialist.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

So, taking aside your voluminous phraseology, you clearly consider striking to be unconscionable. How, therefore, should people protest about something they think is unfair in the work place.

Whatever the situation that you describe ever so nicely above, you should always remember what Bob Dylan meant when in one of his songs, the phrase "only a pawn in the game" is one that well describes the view of the RMT by its cynical misrepresentation of the trades union members true feelings in order to further its socialist agenda.

Convince me to the otherwise.

 

[AlterEgo]

You say that, but didn't GTR offer to guarantee the new roles into the new franchise (should they win it), they agreed to roster OBS onto all services that currently have a conductor, they agreed no compulsory redundancy or wage cut, agreed guaranteed overtime. This seems to me like a lot of assurances and certainly concessions from their starting position.

The RMT on the other hand have offered very little by way of a compromise. They keep pointing to scotrail, but that's irrelevant. Union members always tell us it's unfair to compare drivers salaries to other industries as they only fight for their own rights. By the same token they shouldn't then automatically demand something just because someone else has it.

You're assuming that GoVia bid for the next franchise using the same corporate vehicle.

They could easily swerve this by bidding as a separate company (SWT and EMT are both Stagecoach but the bidding vehicles were very different companies).

I agree with other posters that this seems to be a coordinated attack on the RMT rather than the other way round. The problem is, the RMT are well outflanked this time. Striking is futile, this time.

 

[LLivery]

You say that, but didn't GTR offer to guarantee the new roles into the new franchise (should they win it), they agreed to roster OBS onto all services that currently have a conductor, they agreed no compulsory redundancy or wage cut, agreed guaranteed overtime. This seems to me like a lot of assurances and certainly concessions from their starting position.

The RMT on the other hand have offered very little by way of a compromise. They keep pointing to scotrail, but that's irrelevant. Union members always tell us it's unfair to compare drivers salaries to other industries as they only fight for their own rights. By the same token they shouldn't then automatically demand something just because someone else has it.

I think the fear (as well as safety) is that no DOO train currently has staff onboard, so like Southerns catering staff, they'll be sacked within a few years as they wont be safety critical.

 

[Tetchytyke]

You say that, but didn't GTR offer to guarantee the new roles into the new franchise

No.

they agreed to roster OBS onto all services that currently have a conductor

"where practicable"

they agreed no compulsory redundancy or wage cut

But didn't guarantee other benefits, also didn't guarantee cost of living increases or increment increases.

agreed guaranteed overtime.

No.

This seems to me like a lot of assurances and certainly concessions from their starting position.

It was a lot of hot air and waffle.

The RMT on the other hand have offered very little by way of a compromise. They keep pointing to scotrail, but that's irrelevant.

They kept pointing to the arrangements on Clydeside Electrics, where there are significant contractual penalties if the trains do not operate without a Ticket Examiner (i.e. an OBS). GTR weren't prepared to make assurances to that level.

It also boils down to whether you actually believe the management at GTR. Given that they did the same thing on Gatwick Express (guards became on board hosts, were sacked a year or two later) and given that they sacked catering staff on Southern and SouthEastern with a week's notice, it seems there's a certain amount of cynicism.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

However, I believe its attitudes like this which have led people from loving their jobs to people now finding it demoralising.
Like I've said before, I am left leaning, but no communist, I'd even struggle to be a good socialist.

Like your good self, many of the commuters who Southern transport to and from their places of work do like the jobs that they do ("loving" is a tad strong) and suddenly find that the companies who employ them are not very happy with a situation where staff are not there in time to perform their daily tasks, as this will reflect badly upon the efficiency of the company.

Welcome to your new role of "collateral damage".

 

[Tetchytyke]

the phrase "only a pawn in the game" is one that well describes the view of the RMT by its cynical misrepresentation of the trades union members true feelings in order to further its socialist agenda.

Damn that RMT leadership, cynically and disgracefully misrepresenting an RMT member's vote in favour of strike action as, er, a vote in favour of strike action.

Damn them all to hell. Such depravity.

I agree with other posters that this seems to be a coordinated attack on the RMT rather than the other way round. The problem is, the RMT are well outflanked this time. Striking is futile, this time.

Sadly, I agree with that, although going down fighting will probably make their position stronger for round two of this battle in 2020 when GTR try and get rid of the OBS staff once and for all.

 

[BestWestern]

Is RMT out of control?
No it's just the drawn out death throws of a fatally wounded senile dinosaur.

Only one 'senile dinosaur' comes to mind chap, and it isn't the union...

Regarding the marginally more sensible opening thread, no the RMT are not 'out of control'. Both the RMT and Aslef have made it very clear that they oppose the abolition of Guards and the widespread introduction of DOO/DCO. I'm unsure what action people might have expected to defend that position, other than industrial action? Some loud tutting perhaps, maybe a campaign of scowling?! Why do some people seem to find it beyond comprehension that trade unions are prepared to exercise the full extent of their rights in protecting members' jobs?

Are GTR out of control??

 

[embers25]

Am I right in thinking that you've refused every benefit ever given to you (via your employer) by unions?
I hope you enjoy that 4 hours a week you are allowed to rest, I hope you didn't miss seeing your children grow up too much because you were busy working, I suppose you enjoy bowing and doffing your cap and never looking your employer in the eye because you're just grateful to have a job.

Oh yes that's right, they won for me not to go in to work when the RMT strike right?? Also it's so great having unions that stop me helping out others as it is the first stage to taking their job away...Look how well more union power works in France where strikes are frequently grinding Europe to a halt. I've worked with US unions too who ultimately have cost more workers their jobs than they have saved. Look how well the NUM protected miners jobs and obviously its pure coincidence that all the unions on Southern are now balloting at once and its pure coincidence that disputes always seem to be strikeable around football tournaments and bank holidays and not the rest of the year.

DarloRich you asked that Tory guy for evidence but the RMT have yet to provide ANY evidence driver only trains are less safe (apart from being less safe for their union as most drivers aren't RMT). GWR on Monday appeared to dispatch a train at Truro unsafely with 3 platform staff, 1 guard and a driver....and only realised it as it was halfway off the platform. I have no issue with a member of staff being on the train as well as the driver but they don't need route knowledge and still no-one has provided any hard evidence that they increase safety to the point of being critical. They are striking to protect their subs and not the public. They don't give a rats ass about the public so to keep claiming otherwise is frankly insulting. The new union laws do not go even close to far enough and are full of loopholes. I don't know why GTR agreed to return some of the benefits they took away but they should not be held to ransom by the unions. It is noticeable that the RMT are seen to still be floundering so in rides the other unions to strike as well...though obviously this is unco-ordinated....We now get more bus strikes as well as unions there get more militant. The First Dorset one has destroyed trade on and off the buses in the area at peak season but the union doesn't care. First finaly gave Weymouth investment and really tried to make a go of the failing depot but that wasn't good enough for the unions and as soon as patronage picked up following the fleet investment they strike destroying it. The railway is pretty much the last bastion of the unions as they killed off mining, manufacturing and car making with their ridiculous and unrealistic demands. They are slowly killing the country and need to be stopped...Corbyn is as dangerous and deluded as Trump.

 

[Tetchytyke]

They are slowly killing the country and need to be stopped

The boss of Go-Ahead paid himself a £2,160,000 bonus and gave himself a 10% pay rise, all paid for by GTR commuters.

But you blame the guards for "killing the country"?

Right you are. I bet you're one of those people who believed the £350m Brexit bus too

 

[Dave1987]

I'm sure a few politicians would love to see the RMT disappear. I see this is merely a union bashing thread so no point in actually contributing towards it.

 

[embers25]

Only one 'senile dinosaur' comes to mind chap, and it isn't the union...

Regarding the marginally more sensible opening thread, no the RMT are not 'out of control'. Both the RMT and Aslef have made it very clear that they oppose the abolition of Guards and the widespread introduction of DOO/DCO. I'm unsure what action people might have expected to defend that position, other than industrial action? Some loud tutting perhaps, maybe a campaign of scowling?! Why do some people seem to find it beyond comprehension that trade unions are prepared to exercise the full extent of their rights in protecting members' jobs?

Are GTR out of control??

No they are just trying to protect their company. The RMT keep playing the safety card but where's the stats to back that up. The obvious solution here is to speed up the introduction of driverless trains to the UK (without the fake driver like LUL have). It's proven safe throughout the world so don't let the unions hold the country to ransom any more.Hopefully one benefit of brexit might be even tougher union laws as they are sorely needed. Next thing you know the RMT will be striking because something new in the trains are making their staff sick as that must be the reason why sickness is now sky high on GTR?!!!

 

[Phil.]

So what or who's rattled the Eurostar Train Manager's bars?

 

[embers25]

Currently the RMT has industrial disputes and is planning/has taken/is planning to take industrial action across a growing number of TOCs including:

• Scotrail conductors
• VTEC on board staff
• GTR conductors
• GTR station staff
• Eurostar

Are they spoiling for a fight too easily with no aim to compromise or is it just that a number of incidents have come to head at the same time by chance.

I'm inclined to think that when the whole world but you is wrong, perhaps it's you that's wrong.
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...or is this a co-ordinated effort to make it look as if privatisation has failed with an aim to bringing back British Rail.

Don't forget SWT have union related roster issues too causing cancellations and GWR staff will be striking before long as their dispute isn't resolved. I'm sure there are others too.
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The boss of Go-Ahead paid himself a £2,160,000 bonus and gave himself a 10% pay rise, all paid for by GTR commuters.

But you blame the guards for "killing the country"?

Right you are. I bet you're one of those people who believed the £350m Brexit bus too

Are you sure it was paid for by the commuters and no I voted remain but why let facts get in the way. A bonus doesn't kill the country strikes across it do.

 

[Trog]

There needs to be balance in the world, and some collective organisation to look after the interests of the staff is obviously a good thing. In a fairly run company this may be a rather light weight organisation giving advice and a helping hand to weaker members of the staff who can not navigate the companies procedures for them selves. In a company where the management culture turns to bullying staff and trying to rule by intimidation, you need a harder organisation which can offer the threat of kicking back when the company goes too far.

In the current railway strikes I do feel the government is somewhat behind it all, perhaps not directly by pointing the company at the union and saying Kill in a firm voice. But perhaps more subtly by letting contracts that ensure the company will be financially driven to try and reduce staff costs.

I also feel that the Union have a point in keeping a second member of staff trained to deal with an emergency on trains. The driver by the nature of his job right up front as it is sometimes referred to in the crumple zone. Is perhaps the person most likely to be injured and or have his equipment damaged in an accident. A second member of staff further back in the train who can leap into action, in an emergency has to be a good idea.

Just the idea of passengers bailing out of a train that has run into an obstruction onto the line, with no-one to warn the signalman or at least have the sense to tell them to keep clear of the track and what to do makes me shiver.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Are you sure it was paid for by the commuters

Er, yes, unless you think the Tooth Fairy came and dropped £2.16m underneath his pillow one evening.

A bonus doesn't kill the country strikes across it do.

Totally agree, unwarranted bonuses don't destroy the economy, look at Adam Applegarth and Fred Goodw...oh.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Right you are. I bet you're one of those people who believed the £350m Brexit bus too

There are many of the more thoughtful people who saw the benefits of remaining as part of the EU and saw through the fallacies expounded by the "Leave" campaign who were unfortunate enough to suffer from those typical examples of "Nellie, in the market says..." total lack of any sort of political understanding who voted "Leave".
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Totally agree, unwarranted bonuses don't destroy the economy, look at Adam Applegarth and Fred Goodw...oh.

Who are you to say it was "unwarranted"?

 

[Tetchytyke]

Just the idea of passengers bailing out of a train that has run into an obstruction onto the line, with no-one to warn the signalman or at least have the sense to tell them to keep clear of the track and what to do makes me shiver.

GTR don't have to look very far to see the consequences of DOO in an emergency, it cost their predecessor £75,000 + costs after the screw up at Kentish Town.

And that's really part of the problem. When the health and safety fines are as pathetically low as that, there is no incentive for the TOCs to behave responsibly.
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Who are you to say it was "unwarranted"?

A regular customer of Go-Ahead, both with London Midland and Go North East?

 

[PHILIPE]

There are many of the more thoughtful people who saw the benefits of remaining as part of the EU and saw through the fallacies expounded by the "Leave" campaign who were unfortunate enough to suffer from those typical examples of "Nellie, in the market says..." total lack of any sort of political understanding who voted "Leave".
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Who are you to say it was "unwarranted"?

I think Remainers failed to appreciate the problems EU brings us as well as any advantages. We are tied down to this and that such as controlling immigration, petty rules and red tape and the ability to control our own destiny when EU Rules work against us. There were 2 sides to the Campaign.

 

[Lankyline]

Funny how ASLEF have stayed out of this dispute since GTR were awarded the injunction against them for refusing to drive the new 12-car Gatwick Express driver-operated only (DOO) trains, claiming the absence of a guard put passenger safety at risk, but they still went back to work.

Whilst I appreciate the context of this dispute is slightly different namely possible change to the guards role, isn't the drivers being responsible for door opening/closing still the same area of dispute as the Gatwick Express case. I wonder at what point GTR might then take the RMT to the high court.

Update RMT have called off Thursdays planned 5 day strike action

 

[DarloRich]

Oh yes that's right, they won for me not to go in to work when the RMT strike right?? Also it's so great having unions that stop me helping out others as it is the first stage to taking their job away...Look how well more union power works in France where strikes are frequently grinding Europe to a halt. I've worked with US unions too who ultimately have cost more workers their jobs than they have saved. Look how well the NUM protected miners jobs and obviously its pure coincidence that all the unions on Southern are now balloting at once and its pure coincidence that disputes always seem to be strikeable around football tournaments and bank holidays and not the rest of the year.

DarloRich you asked that Tory guy for evidence but the RMT have yet to provide ANY evidence driver only trains are less safe (apart from being less safe for their union as most drivers aren't RMT). GWR on Monday appeared to dispatch a train at Truro unsafely with 3 platform staff, 1 guard and a driver....and only realised it as it was halfway off the platform. I have no issue with a member of staff being on the train as well as the driver but they don't need route knowledge and still no-one has provided any hard evidence that they increase safety to the point of being critical. They are striking to protect their subs and not the public. They don't give a rats ass about the public so to keep claiming otherwise is frankly insulting. The new union laws do not go even close to far enough and are full of loopholes. I don't know why GTR agreed to return some of the benefits they took away but they should not be held to ransom by the unions. It is noticeable that the RMT are seen to still be floundering so in rides the other unions to strike as well...though obviously this is unco-ordinated....We now get more bus strikes as well as unions there get more militant. The First Dorset one has destroyed trade on and off the buses in the area at peak season but the union doesn't care. First finaly gave Weymouth investment and really tried to make a go of the failing depot but that wasn't good enough for the unions and as soon as patronage picked up following the fleet investment they strike destroying it. The railway is pretty much the last bastion of the unions as they killed off mining, manufacturing and car making with their ridiculous and unrealistic demands. They are slowly killing the country and need to be stopped...Corbyn is as dangerous and deluded as Trump.

Could you please try to break up your posts a little. It is very difficult to follow such a rambling rant. I will point out again that this thread is about whether, or not, the RMT is out of control.

Also, you seem to want to use it as an opportunity to voice your obvious hatred of unions. However, your comparison with unions in France or the USA is not a valid one. They operate in a very different legislative and regulatory framework and have much wider powers to cause trouble than the Tories allow unions in this country. I do not think you understand the legislative framework in this country. Instead you base your views on inherent bias and media reporting that reflects that bias.

You constantly seem to want to bring in other examples of strike action as if this is some kind of coordinated campaign of civil unrest. It is nothing of the sort

 

[gavin]

@AlanJonesPA

TSSA members on Eurostar will strike on August 14 and 15 and for 2 days over the Bank Holiday weekend, in same dispute as RMT

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Er, yes, unless you think the Tooth Fairy came and dropped £2.16m underneath his pillow one evening.

How much financial damage to the good running of companies in the area of the Southern strike in a period of five working days do you envisage would have been borne?

If an annual payment of £2.16 million is divided by 365, then multiplied by 5, you will see how much this is for a five day period, so you can make the necessary comparison.

 

[highdyke]

I thought on the Southern ongoing action which has been going on for months. Apart from the general strike, could this said to be the most economically damaging strike in British history? How long before the Trades dispute act is brought up by voters (via political pressure). If there was ever a legal challenge, remembering this is a democracy, the liability for all these strikes would run into billions, falling squarely on the RMT, ASLEF and it's members. In that scenario the railway workers (and the railways with it) would become toast.

I bet nobody has planned for that scenario from the RMT, they talk about rights, but they are given via political means in a wider democracy.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

How much control whatsoever do most people have over the payment of bonuses in a company in which they have no remit.

What control do you have over those payable bonuses to those top management who run the supermarket that you shop at, the company who supply your gas, water and electricity, the bank you use, etc, etc, etc.....:roll:

 

[DarloRich]

Whatever the situation that you describe ever so nicely above, you should always remember what Bob Dylan meant when in one of his songs, the phrase "only a pawn in the game" is one that well describes the view of the RMT by its cynical misrepresentation of the trades union members true feelings in order to further its socialist agenda.

Convince me to the otherwise.

Is it possible you might ever answer a question? I will ask it again in case you missed it:

How, therefore, should people protest about something they think is unfair in the work place.

I am sure the union has a political agenda. That is hardly surprising considering they are a political entity. Is it any different to the government pushing thier angle which is to erode workers rights to such a level that they can not complain about thier treatment or do anything to alter it.

You seem to be in support of the view that little people should know thier place, be grateful for any crumbs you deign to throw them and should not dare to ask for more! Perhaps you could confirm that point.

How much control whatsoever do most people have over the payment of bonuses in a company in which they have no remit.

What control do you have over those payable bonuses to those top management who run the supermarket that you shop at, the company who supply your gas, water and electricity, the bank you use, etc, etc, etc.....:roll:

Do you have a view on the ethical considerations of awarding yourself a vast bonus while sacking those below you in the food chain? Is that acceptable behavior in your mind?

 

[313103]

Is RMT out of control?
No it's just the drawn out death throws of a fatally wounded senile dinosaur.

Yet another helpful quote, that adds nothing to the table from XDM.
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HH I agree with you as RMT seem to not to know how to operate as a proper Union. Or that's how it is coming across.

How does a union operate properly then?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

You say that, but didn't GTR offer to guarantee the new roles into the new franchise (should they win it), they agreed to roster OBS onto all services that currently have a conductor, they agreed no compulsory redundancy or wage cut, agreed guaranteed overtime. This seems to me like a lot of assurances and certainly concessions from their starting position.

As i have said before 'A promise is a comfort to a fool'.

However the point you make they will roster a OBS onto all services that have a guard, havent the company also said that we can also run those same trains without an OBS, or was i dreaming?

 

[BestWestern]

No they are just trying to protect their company. The RMT keep playing the safety card but where's the stats to back that up. The obvious solution here is to speed up the introduction of driverless trains to the UK (without the fake driver like LUL have). It's proven safe throughout the world so don't let the unions hold the country to ransom any more.Hopefully one benefit of brexit might be even tougher union laws as they are sorely needed. Next thing you know the RMT will be striking because something new in the trains are making their staff sick as that must be the reason why sickness is now sky high on GTR?!!!

I think you need to go and have a cuppa and take five
..

 

[Tetchytyke]

Funny how ASLEF have stayed out of this dispute since GTR were awarded the injunction against them for refusing to drive the new 12-car Gatwick Express driver-operated only (DOO) trains, claiming the absence of a guard put passenger safety at risk, but they still went back to work.

The terms of the injunction were that ASLEF were not allowed to induce anyone working at GTR to not work DOO, not just on Gatwick Express but also at other GTR depots that may occasionally work DOO GatEx services.

It is, of course, a separate offence to induce wildcat strikes and any driver who simply didn't turn up to work would not be protected from dismissal for breach of contract.

Justice Supperstone, who also protected construction industry bosses from criminal prosecution following their illegal blacklisting of trade union workers, has ensured that ASLEF cannot play a part in this dispute.

How much financial damage to the good running of companies in the area of the Southern strike in a period of five working days do you envisage would have been borne?

Again I have absolutely no idea what you are on about.

The cost of the strike action (which can be measured by sticking a damp finger in the air and then multiplying it by whatever political persuasion you have) has nothing to do with whether David Brown's £2,160,000.00 bonus was warranted.

 

[duncanp]

And now there is a strike on Eurostar from this Friday, just when I am due to travel to Marseille.

According to Eurostar, the train is still running though.

I think there is a difference in style between Bob Crow and Mick Cash. Bob Crow, for all his supposed militancy, knew just how far you could go in an industrial dispute, and that there is no point in carrying on with a strike when you have go the best possible deal for your members.

With Mick Cash, I cannot help but think that he is using strike threats as a negotiating tactic, and also that it is a bit too much of a coincidence that all these strikes are happening at the same time.

The Eurostar dispute is over shift patterns arising from an agreement dating back to 2008, according to the BBC. That is 7 years ago, so if there was a problem with the rosters, why is the dispute arising now and not earlier.