Is it "Sugar Loaf" or "Sugar Loaf Halt"?

[swt class 450]

I am just wondering is the correct name for this station "Sugar Loaf" or "Sugar Loaf Halt"? I am just wondering because on all TVMs it always shows "Sugar Loaf Halt". A few days ago i was waiting at Reigate and had a while for my train so was just looking around on the TVM and bought a cheap Sugar Loaf to Llanwrtyd ticket which printed as "Sugar Loaf Halt" (see photo). However all Arriva Trains Wales train timetables and publicity seems to refer to this station just as "Sugar Loaf". The NRE website also just calls it "Sugar Loaf". So i am just wondering which name is correct?

 

[Russonomics]

They're both technically correct. It's one of those places where both names are used interchangeably. At one time it was an actual halt, serving cottages occupied by PW gangs and signalmen. Time moved on and it became a regular station for visitors, local residents (all two of them :P) etc. Some people hold on to the halt suffix, some don't.

Either way, asking for a ticket to Sugar Loaf or Sugar Loaf Halt will get you to the same station.

 

[Crossover]

I believe the term "Halt" has been dropped from the majority of names officially (in the timetables) with the exception of Coombe Junction Halt and St Keyne Wishing Well Halt, both on the Looe branch in Cornwall. Mind, that raises even more questions, as in the case of the former, it is just on tickets as Coombe, not by the full name, so the opposite to Sugar Loaf!

 

[adrock1976]

A question I would like to ask Russonomics while on station names in Wales is that of a large town in Gwynedd.

Portmadoc or Porthmadog? It's the same location.

I've seen both spellings on various maps and documents over the years.

 

[Deepgreen]

I am just wondering is the correct name for this station "Sugar Loaf" or "Sugar Loaf Halt"? I am just wondering because on all TVMs it always shows "Sugar Loaf Halt". A few days ago i was waiting at Reigate and had a while for my train so was just looking around on the TVM and bought a cheap Sugar Loaf to Llanwrtyd ticket which printed as "Sugar Loaf Halt" (see photo). However all Arriva Trains Wales train timetables and publicity seems to refer to this station just as "Sugar Loaf". The NRE website also just calls it "Sugar Loaf". So i am just wondering which name is correct?

Well - we've all done that at Reigate! Just out of curiosity, did you need the ticket you bought to travel with, or just to see what printed out?!

 

[Russonomics]

A question I would like to ask Russonomics while on station names in Wales is that of a large town in Gwynedd.

Portmadoc or Porthmadog? It's the same location.

I've seen both spellings on various maps and documents over the years.

I don't really know a lot about the area (I live on the other side of Wales).
I believe Porthmadoc was the "old Welsh" name used through to the 60's. The Ffestiniog's Porthmadog Harbour Station used to be known as "Portmagoc (old)" for a while. Having a look on Wiki will tell you more.

 

[Deepgreen]

They're both technically correct. It's one of those places where both names are used interchangeably. At one time it was an actual halt, serving cottages occupied by PW gangs and signalmen. Time moved on and it became a regular station for visitors, local residents (all two of them :P) etc. Some people hold on to the halt suffix, some don't.

Either way, asking for a ticket to Sugar Loaf or Sugar Loaf Halt will get you to the same station.

Not to mention a fair amount of kudos!

 

[transmanche]

Portmadoc or Porthmadog? It's the same location.

I've seen both spellings on various maps and documents over the years.

I believe that Porthmadoc was an Anglicisation of the Welsh Porthmadog which has fallen out of favour in modern times. (In much the same way that further back along the line the Anglicisation Towyn has fallen out of use, in favour of the Welsh Tywyn.)

 

[swt class 450]

Thanks for all the info. Indeed there doesnt seem to be many stations with "Halt" any more. Out of interest what do the tickets to St Keyne Wishing Well Halt say?

Another confusing station not far from where i live is "Box Hill & Westhumble" which is sometimes "Boxhill & Westhumble". And then also until about two weeks ago all Southern TVMs printed tickets for Mottisfont & Dunbridge as "Dunbridge" instead of "Mottisfont & Dunbridge" which has finally been fixed after months and months of emailing them.

Has anyone on this forum been on a train that stops at Sugar Loaf? If so can you remember what the automatic announcements say?

No i didnt need the ticket. I was just keeping myself busy while waiting at Reigate for my FGW train back home to Betchworth. But i was just interested in what the ticket would say so i decided to buy one from the TVM.

 

[PHILIPE]

I believe that Porthmadoc was an Anglicisation of the Welsh Porthmadog which has fallen out of favour in modern times. (In much the same way that further back along the line the Anglicisation Towyn has fallen out of use, in favour of the Welsh Tywyn.)

Porthmadog is correct. As said, Porthmadoc was the old English name.

 

[70014IronDuke]

Not to mention a fair amount of kudos!

Would a Sugar Loaf [Halt] to Altnebreac be the rarest collectable UK-mainland ticket, one wonders?

And which would be rarer - a single or a return?

 

[30907]

Porthmadog is correct. As said, Porthmadoc was the old English name.

Portmadoc was the GW/WR spelling, surely? Welsh names began to replace the anglicised ones in the early 60s IIRC - Dolgelly to Dolgellau was another - long before the wholesale introduction of bilingual signs.

 

[Calthrop]

I have the impression that ever since the concept of "Halt" indicating a "lesser station", first came into being; it has featured a lot of anomalies / contradictions / grey areas. I happened the other day to be looking through a back number of the magazine Railway Bylines, featuring a piece on the Elsenham -- Thaxted branch, including pictures taken by a visitor a few weeks before the line's closure w.e.f. 15th September 1952. This branch had four intermediate stopping-places, three of which were designated in the public timetable, as "Halt". All references in the article text, refer to these three as "Halt". However -- with the only one, a picture of which accompanied the article, Mill Road Halt (the first stop out of Elsenham): the name-sign on the platform shows just "Mill Road".

(In much the same way that further back along the line the Anglicisation Towyn has fallen out of use, in favour of the Welsh Tywyn.)

I was interested to discover some years ago -- in the context of severe flooding in the area -- the quasi-namesake of the Talyllyn Railway's Tywyn / Towyn, on the North Wales coast: by the main line between Rhyl and Abergele & Pensarn, though never served by a station or halt. It would appear that this village is still officially known as Towyn. Unless scholars of the Welsh language can bring out linguistic stuff unknown to me: I would guess that this settlement, lesser than the one on Cardigan Bay, has had its "Towyn" spelling retained, in order to minimise confusion between the one and the other.

 

[transmanche]

I was interested to discover some years ago -- in the context of severe flooding in the area -- the quasi-namesake of the Talyllyn Railway's Tywyn / Towyn, on the North Wales coast: by the main line between Rhyl and Abergele & Pensarn, though never served by a station or halt. It would appear that this village is still officially known as Towyn. Unless scholars of the Welsh language can bring out linguistic stuff unknown to me: I would guess that this settlement, lesser than the one on Cardigan Bay, has had its "Towyn" spelling retained, in order to minimise confusion between the one and the other.

Indeed the settlement in Conwy County Borough has retained the English variant of Towyn, although the Welsh spelling of that place is Tywyn.

It may be as simple as the fact there are far more Welsh speakers in the Gwynedd Tywyn than there are in the Conwy one.

 

[emoaconr]

Indeed the settlement in Conwy County Borough has retained the English variant of Towyn, although the Welsh spelling of that place is Tywyn.

It may be as simple as the fact there are far more Welsh speakers in the Gwynedd Tywyn than there are in the Conwy one.

And indeed, Conwy itself is the traditional Welsh spelling of what was once Conway

 

[LewFinnis]

I can remember many years ago (50+) a local film society used a strategically placed piece of cloth to convert Aylesham Halt (between Dover and Canterbury East) to Sham Halt for the purposes of their film. It must have been no later than early 1959 as it featured a steam passenger train.

 

[Parallel]

Has anyone on this forum been on a train that stops at Sugar Loaf? If so can you remember what the automatic announcements say?

The autoannouncements at Swansea and Shrewsbury definitely announce it as "Sugar Loaf". It is also displayed as such on the electronic display boards at stations.

Interestingly, St Keyne Wishing Well Halt is listed on electronic departure boards at Liskeard as "St Keyne WW Ha(x)", obviously due to character space constraints (but IMO just 'St Keyne (x)' would be acceptable.)

 

[greaterwest]

It's "Sugar Loaf" on the station announcements and displays, and if the trains on that line ever get an onboard CIS system then it'll be the same there (same announcer & recordings, Ruth)

 

[Greenback]

I believe that Porthmadoc was an Anglicisation of the Welsh Porthmadog which has fallen out of favour in modern times. (In much the same way that further back along the line the Anglicisation Towyn has fallen out of use, in favour of the Welsh Tywyn.)

This is correct. The Welsh language used to be seen as inferior to English, and there was a concerted effort to anglicise Welsh names into what the English establishment thought they should be.

More enlightened views came in during the 1960's I;m pleased to say.

Portmadoc was the GW/WR spelling, surely? Welsh names began to replace the anglicised ones in the early 60s IIRC - Dolgelly to Dolgellau was another - long before the wholesale introduction of bilingual signs.

My very own Llanelli was another, being seen on old maps and timetables as Llanelly, which must have appeared to make more sense pronunciation wise to the English elite who made such decisions!

In fairness, I have to point out that place names do change over the centuries. When few people were literate and there weren't many documents lying around, people used to be quite liberal with the spelling of places like Swansea - Swanesey, Swansy, Swansey and so on.

 

[Deepgreen]

Thanks for all the info. Indeed there doesnt seem to be many stations with "Halt" any more. Out of interest what do the tickets to St Keyne Wishing Well Halt say?

Another confusing station not far from where i live is "Box Hill & Westhumble" which is sometimes "Boxhill & Westhumble". And then also until about two weeks ago all Southern TVMs printed tickets for Mottisfont & Dunbridge as "Dunbridge" instead of "Mottisfont & Dunbridge" which has finally been fixed after months and months of emailing them.

Has anyone on this forum been on a train that stops at Sugar Loaf? If so can you remember what the automatic announcements say?

No i didnt need the ticket. I was just keeping myself busy while waiting at Reigate for my FGW train back home to Betchworth. But i was just interested in what the ticket would say so i decided to buy one from the TVM.

Indeed, and Southern have just installed a few signs such that both versions are now displayed at the station!

 

[Calthrop]

My very own Llanelli was another, being seen on old maps and timetables as Llanelly, which must have appeared to make more sense pronunciation wise to the English elite who made such decisions!

At the risk of tangential drifting-off: can you confirm that the following, which I'm sure I've heard, is correct? Whilst Llanelli is pronounced -- both "ll's" -- with the Welsh-language approximate "(t)h(l)" for double l: Kidwelly, a little way further down-line, is correctly pronounced (keeping of the "y" spelling, maybe a clue here) English-fashion -- i.e. the "ll" just pronounced as "l".

 

[Greenback]

You are correct. There are idiosyncracies, another of which is Bynea, which, by rights, should be pronounced 'bun-ee-ya' but isn't, except on ATW's announcements!

 

[Gwenllian2001]

At the risk of tangential drifting-off: can you confirm that the following, which I'm sure I've heard, is correct? Whilst Llanelli is pronounced -- both "ll's" -- with the Welsh-language approximate "(t)h(l)" for double l: Kidwelly, a little way further down-line, is correctly pronounced (keeping of the "y" spelling, maybe a clue here) English-fashion -- i.e. the "ll" just pronounced as "l".

Kidwelly is an anglicised spelling. There is no 'k' in the Welsh alphabet. The correct spelling is Cydweli and is thus spelt on the station itself. Welsh spelling is phonetic, unlike English, and every letter is sounded. It is quite sraightforward when you learn that 'dd'; 'ch'; 'll'; 'ff' etc are single letters.

 

[Greenback]

Very true Gwenllian2001. It would be simpler all round if Kidwelly was changed to Cydweli just like Portmadoc was changed to Porthmadog.

Back on topic, and there have been many places that have lost the suffix that used to be part of the station name, not just halts like Sugar Loaf. How many other stations does the suffix appear on tickets but not the station signs or timetables? Or vice versa of course.

 

[transmanche]

How many other stations does the suffix appear on tickets but not the station signs or timetables? Or vice versa of course.

Not quite what you're asking for, but quite a few departure screens (on the ECML at least) display Newcastle Central, whilst the tickets and station signs merely say Newcastle.

 

[Greenback]

That's interesting. It's a long time since I've travelled on the ECML up to Newcastle. So long that I can't remember what the screens said at all!

 

[Calthrop]

You are correct. There are idiosyncracies, another of which is Bynea, which, by rights, should be pronounced 'bun-ee-ya' but isn't, except on ATW's announcements!

When travelling on the Heart of Wales line, I have in my ignorant Saxon way pronounced the place to myself as "By-neigh", which I reckoned was unlikely to be right. What do people locally say, instead of "bun-ee-ya"?

 

[transmanche]

That's interesting. It's a long time since I've travelled on the ECML up to Newcastle. So long that I can't remember what the screens said at all!

Here's a pic from York station in 2010. (You'll need to click through to see the full size phito and zoom in to see!)


Departure boards, York railway station concourse - DSC07749 [GFDL (http://www.gnu.org/copyleft/fdl.html) or CC BY-SA 3.0 (http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0)], by Rept0n1x (Own work), from Wikimedia Commons

 

[PeterC]

Welsh spelling is phonetic, unlike English, and every letter is sounded. It is quite sraightforward when you learn that 'dd'; 'ch'; 'll'; 'ff' etc are single letters.

Whatever the purists may tell you there are dialect variants. I always cringe when I hear a radio announcer say bl-eye-nav-on for Blaenafon / Blaenavon instead of the local blen-av-on.

There are continuing debates about the orthography of place names in the Eastern Valley but that is another topic.

 

[Greenback]

When travelling on the Heart of Wales line, I have in my ignorant Saxon way pronounced the place to myself as "By-neigh", which I reckoned was unlikely to be right. What do people locally say, instead of "bun-ee-ya"?

Bin-ee-ya!

Not much of a difference, I grant you, but the y in Welsh is most pronounced as an English u eg yn is said as un.