Southern DOO: ASLEF members vote 79.1% for revised deal

[infobleep]

I would rather have a union like the RMT, who are prepared to stand up for their members. Even if their PR department could be improved!

I am a member of a union (not on the railway), and last time I was threatened with redundancy*, the HR person told me the restructure had already been agreed with the union. First I had heard of it. When I emailed the union to ask why they had agreed this without consulting their members, and why they didn't send anyone to our office on the day it was being announced, their response was frankly appalling. They explained that they had agreed the changes as there were only small numbers of employees involved and the company had agreed to try to redeploy where possible. Then they apologised that they hadn't come to the meeting but said members could phone for assistance.

I'd much rather have a union who at least try to defend their members' jobs, especially in cases like this where the entire role is at risk, not just a few members.

*3 times in 10 years - it's a fact of life in my industry. Although last time it backfired... it was similar to the Southern thing where they were trying to re-define our jobs into lower paid roles. What they did not expect was that my boss would take their pay-out (for 20 years service so not cheap). They then had to promote me into his role and filled my role with an expensive contractor while they worked out what to do. After 6 months the contractor left, so we hired another contractor who happened to be my old boss on a day rate which was twice what he used to earn as an employee... you could not make this up.

Was this in the public sector by any chance? If so local government?

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[Deepgreen]

My Southern conductor this morning operated the doors from the first class vestibule on our 377. I was sitting in first class immediately adjacent to him and several passengers boarded en route and stood in the vestibule next to his position for a while. When it became obvious that he was not going to be checking tickets, several sat down in first and were untroubled for the rest of their journeys. It was clear that they did not have first class tickets from the fact that they stood for several miles before deciding to sit down.

Conductor morale at rock bottom, perhaps, such that he didn't check tickets in his immediate area, despite it being so obvious that most didn't have first class tickets? BTW, he wasn't involved in any operational problems en route as the train actually ran to time for the first time in ages, and he simply stood by the door between stations.

I won't specify the train but it was not a Metro working and first class was in operation.

 

[DarloRich]

They'll end up like the TSSA who couldn't tear a wet paper hanky in two.

It is interesting how many people with your view suddenly change it when they need help and support over a local issue such as a grievance or disciplinary or they want flexible working or reasonable adjustments.

The paper hanky tearing issues seem to get overlooked then. Odd that.

If I was a guard on GTR threatened with moving to OBS, I'd probably be looking at changing careers. But, try and find a £33,000/year job around that uses the same skills as a guard's. You can't - and I'm afraid that's the truth.

Hence why they might want to fight to keep thier jobs!
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Bob crow seemed better ultimately at making deals whereas the current regime seem ruggedly determined to fight to the bitter end, guess only time will tell who's right

he always knew when the deal needed to be done and what the deal should look like.

 

[AlterEgo]

It is interesting how many people with your view suddenly change it when they need help and support over a local issue such as a grievance or disciplinary or they want flexible working or reasonable adjustments.

The paper hanky tearing issues seem to get overlooked then. Odd that.

I have first-hand experience of the TSSA taking up a serious local grievance on my behalf. They did very well for me.

Nonetheless, as a collective bargaining organisation they're poor, mostly because the grades they represent (including my old grade) could have gone on strike and the company would still have been able to run a service.

 

[infobleep]

On my train we suddenly stopped between stations. Guard then asks for a doctor or nurse. In about 5 minutes we departed again. Wonder how long it would have taken on a driver only operated train?

Shortly the guard thanked all those doctors and nurses who came to help. He also thanked the passenger who alerted him.

What struck me was how quickly they dealt with what needed to be done. Wonder what was wrong. May be someone fainted or had an epileptic fit or any other type of illness that needed attention but didn't require an ambulance.

Just shows how many doctors and nurses are on a train and how a guard was able to help with the situation.

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[JamesTT]

On my train we suddenly stopped between stations. Guard then asks for a doctor or nurse. In about 5 minutes we departed again. Wonder how long it would have taken on a driver only operated train?

Shortly the guard thanked all those doctors and nurses who came to help. He also thanked the passenger who alerted him.

What struck me was how quickly they dealt with what needed to be done. Wonder what was wrong. May be someone fainted or had an epileptic fit or any other type of illness that needed attention but didn't require an ambulance.

Just shows how many doctors and nurses are on a train and how a guard was able to help with the situation.

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I know I am repeating myself but an OBS could also have made those announcements

 

[tony6499]

I know I am repeating myself but an OBS could also have made those announcements

What if there hadn't been one on board though ?

 

[Dave1987]

I know I am repeating myself but an OBS could also have made those announcements

If there was one on the train!! They have clearly stated they want to run without one so there is a good chance there won't be an OBS on a train that has a medical emergency. Please please stop saying that an OBS could do this and that when you know very well they won't be on every service.

 

[BRblue]

I know I am repeating myself but an OBS could also have made those announcements

You are repeating yourself so I will repeat what others have said.... once you have NON SAFETY CRITICAL obs on board, there is no requirement to have them. Do you honestly believe that GTR would pay overtime or RDW to cover uncovered shifts or Sundays?

 

[JamesTT]

You are repeating yourself so I will repeat what others have said.... once you have NON SAFETY CRITICAL obs on board, there is no requirement to have them. Do you honestly believe that GTR would pay overtime or RDW to cover uncovered shifts or Sundays?

My point is making announcements of any kind is not something only a guard/safety critical staff member could do.

One question why are they bothering to introduce the OBS role. Why not just make 2/3s of the conductors redundant and pay them off
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If there was one on the train!! They have clearly stated they want to run without one so there is a good chance there won't be an OBS on a train that has a medical emergency. Please please stop saying that an OBS could do this and that when you know very well they won't be on every service.

Do you mean just like a conductor is not on every service.
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If there was one on the train!! They have clearly stated they want to run without one so there is a good chance there won't be an OBS on a train that has a medical emergency. Please please stop saying that an OBS could do this and that when you know very well they won't be on every service.

Not sure it is a case of wanting to run without it is they will be able to run if no OBS is available.

 

[infobleep]

My point is making announcements of any kind is not something only a guard/safety critical staff member could do.

One question why are they bothering to introduce the OBS role. Why not just make 2/3s of the conductors redundant and pay them off
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Do you mean just like a conductor is not on every service.
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Not sure it is a case of wanting to run without it is they will be able to run if no OBS is available.

Is it more expensive to make guards redundant, than make an OBS role and then when people not required not replace them?

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[AlterEgo]

Is it more expensive to make guards redundant, than make an OBS role and then when people not required not replace them?

Bingo.

Some of the guards will have 15 or 20+ years' service = very expensive to make redundant.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

My personal preference is for there always to be a second person on board the train. This is how I prefer trains to be run, but that doesn't mean it's always sustainable.

Quite honestly if I were working for the DfT or a TOC I would find the evidence for DOO worth pursuing. It's been shown that the removal of the guard doesn't affect overall passenger satisfaction or their perception of safety. The RSSB and ORR believe that DOO is a safe way of working, and frankly that's all that matters.

The problem with a lot of (but not all) railway staff is that they don't see things from the other side. There is a pervasive them and us culture in some areas which is counterproductive. Management of course are just as guilty for the continuance of that culture.

I completely support the rights of people to collectively bargain, to strike, and defend their rights. The RMT are finally well outmanoeuvred by the Tories (whom I detest and would never vote for); unfortunately the RMT can't see this themselves and so they're continuing with industrial action, during a parliamentary recess and during a period when the TOC's most lucrative customers will be likely to be on holiday. Instead, they really ought to have been spending the last year forging relationships with disability rights groups, or passenger interest groups. But no, they'll just go out on strike, same as always. It's quite depressing in a way.

The RMT are absolutely opposed to change and don't deny it - this change fundamentally affects the bulk of the RMT's safety critical staff. These staff are the most valuable to the union because the withdrawal of their labour causes the most disruption for the company (because the trains can't run), and if the RMT don't have safety critical staff on their subs sheet, they're f***ed as an industrial force. They'll end up like the TSSA who couldn't tear a wet paper hanky in two.

Travel around Europe. You'll see DOO in a lot of places. There are not that many ticket offices open on European suburban networks.

If I was a guard on GTR threatened with moving to OBS, I'd probably be looking at changing careers. But, try and find a £33,000/year job around that uses the same skills as a guard's. You can't - and I'm afraid that's the truth.

I'm a guard / conductor. I wish I got paid £33,000 a year!

 

[JamesTT]

Bingo.

Some of the guards will have 15 or 20+ years' service = very expensive to make redundant.

And those that become OBS will have a continuation of service so their time in that role will add to their redundancy payment

 

[AlterEgo]

And those that become OBS will have a continuation of service so their time in that role will add to their redundancy payment

But perhaps GTR won't have the next franchise...

 

[DarloRich]

My point is making announcements of any kind is not something only a guard/safety critical staff member could do.

IF one is on the train - lots of people dont belive they will be long term.

One question why are they bothering to introduce the OBS role. Why not just make 2/3s of the conductors redundant and pay them off

errrrrrrr the vast cost? Better to make them leave of thier own accord

 

[AlterEgo]

I'm a guard / conductor. I wish I got paid £33,000 a year!

Well, that's the salary for OBS as it was advertised on GTR's own site!

 

[Wolfie]

I doubt it. Last time the RMT tried to make strikes from midday to midday the next day Southern took 2 days pay even if the Guards was at work for one of those days. I imagine they will do the same this time and say if you are striking then you will lose 5 days pay.

And that will guarantee either legal action or a complete closure of Southern (if they take 5 days pay they will lose 5 days work would be my attitude) or both.. Perhaps Mr Hortoin's over-inflated pay packet should start being hit since he is (as usual) obviously doing a woeful job.

 

[DarloRich]

Well, that's the salary for OBS as it was advertised on GTR's own site!

London/SE weighting?

 

[AlterEgo]

London/SE weighting?

Definitely inflated for the region, yes.

But still, find a £33,000 job a displaced guard can go into off the railway.

 

[Carlisle]

I have first-hand experience of the TSSA taking up a serious local grievance on my behalf. They did very well for me.

Nonetheless, as a collective bargaining organisation they're poor, mostly because the grades they represent (including my old grade) could have gone on strike and the company would still have been able to run a service.

Just goes to show how much the Railway/workplace cultures changed in recent times, when I joined BR in the 80s I'd say most staff believed in the general idea of being in union and broadly what they stood for, now that been totally superseded by the gritty realism that you can only really achieve anything if you've got the power to stop the job

 

[Islineclear3_1]

Bingo.Some of the guards will have 15 or 20+ years' service = very expensive to make redundant.

Indeed.
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But perhaps GTR won't have the next franchise...

I doubt this would make any difference. An employee working for X company for 20+ years that has been taken over 2-3 times would have protected years of service and any new company/franchisee would have to foot the bill for any redundancy payments

 

[AlterEgo]

Just goes to show how much the Railway/workplace cultures changed in recent times, when I joined BR in the 80s I'd say most staff believed in the general idea of being in union and broadly what they stood for, now that been totally superseded by the gritty realism that you can only really achieve anything if you've got the power to stop the job

How very true.

Many of the (office based) staff I used to work with thought the union was a waste of money. I'd say TSSA memebership was around 50%.

Always be in the union!
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any new company/franchisee would have to foot the bill for any redundancy payments

Quite...so why would GTR care?

It'd just be written into any franchise spec anyway.

I think the OBS role is designed for natural wastage.

 

[313103]

Definitely inflated for the region, yes.

But still, find a £33,000 job a displaced guard can go into off the railway.

Once displaced a Guard will often find getting a job in the same industry on that salary very difficult. Isnt the £33,000 headline salary including Sundays, or is Sundays outside?

When i was a Guard my salary was £30,000. In order to stay in the same industry i had to start at a new company and accept a -£8,000 pay cut. I am spending now more time at work then i ever did and regularly have to work the maximum 13 days before hidden kicks in.

 

[AlterEgo]

And who said overtime is compulsory as part of your terms and conditions of employment? Overtime is a choice made by the individual, not by the company and not by the union.

....except the union is instructing its members not to work overtime. :roll:

 

[IanXC]

It has come to my attention that we don't have a separate thread for the ScotRail dispute, which is proceeding in an altogether different direction to Southern's. I have therefore created a thread for this purpose: http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=133569

 

[Deepgreen]

Well, that's the salary for OBS as it was advertised on GTR's own site!

I would be very wary of believing any so-called 'information' on GTR's web site(s) - their performance regarding accuracy thus far has been atrocious!

 

[DarloRich]

How very true.

Many of the (office based) staff I used to work with thought the union was a waste of money. I'd say TSSA memebership was around 50%.

Always be in the union!

Agreed - they think that. Until they want help

 

[JamesTT]

I would be very wary of believing any so-called 'information' on GTR's web site(s) - their performance regarding accuracy thus far has been atrocious!

Are you suggesting that in the interview when pay is mentioned, the interviewer will say different figures to those that have been advertised?

 

[Deepgreen]

Are you suggesting that in the interview when pay is mentioned, the interviewer will say different figures to those that have been advertised?

Nothing would surprise me anymore! I've heard of several similar examples, including people being asked to confirm that the job in front of them on the interview table is the one they have applied for, and saying "no, it isn't"!