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Southern DOO: ASLEF members vote 79.1% for revised deal

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Dave1987

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This means the train will be able to drive itself with the driver being there to supervise it. Similar to the way a plane has a auto-pilot feature.

You may think I am high on some illegal substance but this is already in use on some Underground lines and in Europe. It is currently under testing on simulators but this is the opening phase which if successful would lead onto testing in the core itself.

The class 700s were designed to no longer require dispatch staff however the dwell time was found to be too long in testing and thus for the moment dispatch staff are safe.

Again I have many posts deleted due to people thinking I am chatting a load of "bollocks" earlier. One of those was about the possibility of RMT balloting all of its station staff which is now a reality.

As has previously been discussed in this forum, in this digital age more jobs are being simplified and handed over to technology. The logical next step is driverless trains, we already have plans for driverless cars, and it is not stretch of the imagination that this could be being planned sooner rather than later...

Again this has been discussed to death on other threads! It isn't going to happen anytime soon. Network Rail have documents showing it will take until the 2050's to get the entire network to ETCS level 2. There are documents available online which detail how the national mainline network is far far more complicated than underground or metro services.
 
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313103

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Nonetheless, the RMT and ASLEF have been opponents to change for far too long and frankly I'm pleased someone might actually use some muscle to push them back.

I find this part of your comment rather disingenuous, How can you say the RMT have been opponents to change when the former NUR had nearly 409,000 members in 1945. In 2016 its modern equivalent struggles to have 80,000 if these attacks on the grades ive already mentioned continue it will drop below 50,000.

Something tells me that to lose 350,000 head counted members over 70 years is not an opponent of change but one that always has to change. But it would appear that you wont be happy until its use as union is finished.
 

AlterEgo

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I find this part of your comment rather disingenuous, How can you say the RMT have been opponents to change when the former NUR had nearly 409,000 members in 1945. In 2016 its modern equivalent struggles to have 80,000 if these attacks on the grades ive already mentioned continue it will drop below 50,000.

Something tells me that to lose 350,000 head counted members over 70 years is not an opponent of change but one that always has to change. But it would appear that you wont be happy until its use as union is finished.

Ah right-o, so the RMT never fought against any of those job losses, nearly all of which were inevitable?

Are you suggesting that essentially if a job is lost on the railway it's because the RMT are "open to change"?

Daft comment all round. Railway unions made my family a lot more prosperous in the 1990s then they were in the 1970s.

The RMT may be utterly clueless, fekless Marxists but at least they've some balls, unlike the TSSA, who are milquetoasts. M

The RMT will still get battered. The DfT WILL see this through, the political impetus in that department is considerable.
 

infobleep

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Yes but the guard has the benefit of not only being able to call for an ambulance he can make an announcement on the train for any doctors and nurses. Also if there are delays and alterations he will know what time and on what platform the train will arrive and have the station and numbers for control on his hpone.

Something the average customer would not have access to ordinarily.
Perhaps there needs to be public access for use during emergencies if they are so keen to rid the train of the additional staff.

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk
 

redbutton

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You ain't gonna see a wage drop for present staff. What will happen is that the guards will be deployed as whatever retaining their rate but new entrants to the whatever will be paid at whatever rate.

There will be a wage drop in real terms because the new role will be non-essential, meaning that the company will not use rest day overtime to cover work when they can just run the trains without.

So although the basic pay may be guaranteed, a large portion of the current Conductor's pay packet will be lost.
 

spangles

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There will be a wage drop in real terms because the new role will be non-essential, meaning that the company will not use rest day overtime to cover work when they can just run the trains without.

So although the basic pay may be guaranteed, a large portion of the current Conductor's pay packet will be lost.

However, given that a constant moan of the unions is that management should employ more staff to cover all turns (ie no need for overtime or rest day) it means they are in effect happy to surrender rest days anyway...can't have it both ways.
 

DelayRepay

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The RMT may be utterly clueless, fekless Marxists but at least they've some balls, unlike the TSSA, who are milquetoasts. M

I would rather have a union like the RMT, who are prepared to stand up for their members. Even if their PR department could be improved!

I am a member of a union (not on the railway), and last time I was threatened with redundancy*, the HR person told me the restructure had already been agreed with the union. First I had heard of it. When I emailed the union to ask why they had agreed this without consulting their members, and why they didn't send anyone to our office on the day it was being announced, their response was frankly appalling. They explained that they had agreed the changes as there were only small numbers of employees involved and the company had agreed to try to redeploy where possible. Then they apologised that they hadn't come to the meeting but said members could phone for assistance.

I'd much rather have a union who at least try to defend their members' jobs, especially in cases like this where the entire role is at risk, not just a few members.

*3 times in 10 years - it's a fact of life in my industry. Although last time it backfired... it was similar to the Southern thing where they were trying to re-define our jobs into lower paid roles. What they did not expect was that my boss would take their pay-out (for 20 years service so not cheap). They then had to promote me into his role and filled my role with an expensive contractor while they worked out what to do. After 6 months the contractor left, so we hired another contractor who happened to be my old boss on a day rate which was twice what he used to earn as an employee... you could not make this up.
 

AlterEgo

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I would rather have a union like the RMT, who are prepared to stand up for their members. Even if their PR department could be improved!

I am a member of a union (not on the railway), and last time I was threatened with redundancy*, the HR person told me the restructure had already been agreed with the union. First I had heard of it. When I emailed the union to ask why they had agreed this without consulting their members, and why they didn't send anyone to our office on the day it was being announced, their response was frankly appalling. They explained that they had agreed the changes as there were only small numbers of employees involved and the company had agreed to try to redeploy where possible. Then they apologised that they hadn't come to the meeting but said members could phone for assistance.

I'd much rather have a union who at least try to defend their members' jobs, especially in cases like this where the entire role is at risk, not just a few members.

*3 times in 10 years - it's a fact of life in my industry. Although last time it backfired... it was similar to the Southern thing where they were trying to re-define our jobs into lower paid roles. What they did not expect was that my boss would take their pay-out (for 20 years service so not cheap). They then had to promote me into his role and filled my role with an expensive contractor while they worked out what to do. After 6 months the contractor left, so we hired another contractor who happened to be my old boss on a day rate which was twice what he used to earn as an employee... you could not make this up.

Sounds like the PCS... My union!

The RMT stick up for their members better than any other union I know. The problem is, they don't know how to fight this one. They're outflanked.

The PCS are pretty weak. In fact, most unions are thanks to the Tories.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Bet you cant wait for that happening. At least you will be one happy soul when that happens.

You've clearly not read my posts in this thread.
 

DelayRepay

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The RMT stick up for their members better than any other union I know. The problem is, they don't know how to fight this one. They're outflanked.

I think this time, they've found a fight they cannot win. Like the National Union of Mineworkers* found in 1984, sometimes a government will be so determined that a union cannot win.

That doesn't mean they shouldn't fight though - they probably won't stop DOO but they may win better pay-offs for their members and better conditions for those who remain as OBS.
 

Robertj21a

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I think this time, they've found a fight they cannot win. Like the National Union of Mineworkers* found in 1984, sometimes a government will be so determined that a union cannot win.

That doesn't mean they shouldn't fight though - they probably won't stop DOO but they may win better pay-offs for their members and better conditions for those who remain as OBS.

Without going over the same old ground yet again, many would argue that widespread DOO was inevitable once it was agreed initially, all those years ago. The RMT under Bob Crow might have had an impact but the present team appear to be way short of the same ability.
 

XDM

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You vastly exaggerate the numbers. Many were hotel workers,lift attendants,laundry workers,aboard ships,horse grooms & scammel drivers. Additionally by striking continually the RMT destroyed the milk churn,parcel,mail & pigeon business which at least gave something for guards to do. And many lines closed. Apart from the line closures,RMT high ups fought every change tooth & nail,nearly killing the railways(serpell) in the process. Lord Cardigan could easily have been an RMT committee member. And they would have delighted in leading the charge of the Light brigade. The sooner RMT is replaced by the fairly pragmatic & generally wiser ASLEF the better.
 

AlterEgo

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I think this time, they've found a fight they cannot win. Like the National Union of Mineworkers* found in 1984, sometimes a government will be so determined that a union cannot win.

That doesn't mean they shouldn't fight though - they probably won't stop DOO but they may win better pay-offs for their members and better conditions for those who remain as OBS.

I entirely agree with you.
 

BRblue

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You vastly exaggerate the numbers. Many were hotel workers,lift attendants,laundry workers,aboard ships,horse grooms & scammel drivers. Additionally by striking continually the RMT destroyed the milk churn,parcel,mail & pigeon business which at least gave something for guards to do. And many lines closed. Apart from the line closures,RMT high ups fought every change tooth & nail,nearly killing the railways(serpell) in the process. Lord Cardigan could easily have been an RMT committee member. And they would have delighted in leading the charge of the Light brigade. The sooner RMT is replaced by the fairly pragmatic & generally wiser ASLEF the better.

Do they accept non driver members then?
I don't have a problem with the RMT at local or regional level, at a national level though they are a bit too political for me.
We have lost many railway grades over the years which the NUR/RMT couldn't save, but they do try and get the best result for their members which is exactly what a union is meant to do.
ASLEF may be pragmatic and wise at the moment... but I doubt that would be the case if it was their members heads on the chopping block.
 

Carlisle

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The RMT under Bob Crow might have had an impact but the present team appear to be way short of the same ability.
Bob crow seemed better ultimately at making deals whereas the current regime seem ruggedly determined to fight to the bitter end, guess only time will tell who's right
 
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highdyke

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You vastly exaggerate the numbers. Many were hotel workers,lift attendants,laundry workers,aboard ships,horse grooms & scammel drivers. Additionally by striking continually the RMT destroyed the milk churn,parcel,mail & pigeon business which at least gave something for guards to do. And many lines closed. Apart from the line closures,RMT high ups fought every change tooth & nail,nearly killing the railways(serpell) in the process. Lord Cardigan could easily have been an RMT committee member. And they would have delighted in leading the charge of the Light brigade. The sooner RMT is replaced by the fairly pragmatic & generally wiser ASLEF the better.

Although we shouldn't forget the 17 day strike by ASLEF in 1955, when a state of emergency was declared. British Railways never made a profit again and the government switched policies to road. Groups like the railway conversion league appeared.

http://www.britishpathe.com/video/rail-strike-chaos
 
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Robertj21a

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Bob crow seemed better ultimately at making deals whereas the current regime seem ruggedly determined to fight to the bitter end, guess only time will tell who's right

Unfortunately, we already know the answer to that one.
 

313103

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You vastly exaggerate the numbers. Many were hotel workers,lift attendants,laundry workers,aboard ships,horse grooms & scammel drivers. Additionally by striking continually the RMT destroyed the milk churn,parcel,mail & pigeon business which at least gave something for guards to do. And many lines closed. Apart from the line closures,RMT high ups fought every change tooth & nail,nearly killing the railways(serpell) in the process. Lord Cardigan could easily have been an RMT committee member. And they would have delighted in leading the charge of the Light brigade. The sooner RMT is replaced by the fairly pragmatic & generally wiser ASLEF the better.

Are you for real? I mean honestly your ignorance is outstanding. I need not say anything more about what you have put here because i cannot educate those who want to remain ignorant.
 

AlterEgo

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Are you for real? I mean honestly your ignorance is outstanding. I need not say anything more about what you have put here because i cannot educate those who want to remain ignorant.

Absolute nonsense.

Engage with the argument.
 

313103

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You've clearly not read my posts in this thread.

Well it comes across rightly or wrongly that your posts are very anti RMT and very pro DOO, now that may or may not be the actual case, but it is certainly the impression i am getting from most of your recent posts.

The RMT probably see this as a must win so must fight it, by accepting DOO meekly it would be the thin end of the wedge as far as they are concerned, they also know that despite all the promises made by Govia about the OBS role we all know that they are only a short term measure.

Previous DOO schemes around London have shown that when the guards have gone no one replaces them, most certainly BR did not, and we all know that the whole idea is to 1, reduce the power the RMT has, 2, reduce the headcount, and 3 in a separate part it will eventually close most if not all ticket offices. So you can understand why they fear DOO, take London Overground they had when they announced DOO 148 Conductors and six managers, of those 65 left or took early retirement and two of the managers left. If you repeat this across Southern, Merseyrail, Northern & Scotrail (the current companies with DOO in their plans) that means a net reduction of about half the workforce in everyone of those companies.

Ive heard people say well the union should protect those roles that displaced guards fall into, if the union cant defend its stronger groups, how is it going to defend its weaker ones? The union would have to accept that there days of negotiating workers in the rail industry is at an end and just let the companies do what they want with no recourse.

It is also truly amazing when trade unions in the UK are accused of bringing the country to halt when we have the toughest and most stringent trade union reforms in the western world.
 

the sniper

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Absolute nonsense.

Engage with the argument.

XDMs post is so ridiculous it isn't worthy of being engaged with. It's nonsense posted like that that makes this thread such an avoidable s***show. There's no point in having the discussion as it's utterly worthless and a complete waste of time. If he fully believes what he wrote, then it isn't worth trying to reason with him.
 

Dave1987

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XDMs post is so ridiculous it isn't worthy of being engaged with. It's nonsense posted like that that makes this thread such an avoidable s***show. There's no point in having the discussion as it's utterly worthless and a complete waste of time. If he fully believes what he wrote, then it isn't worth trying to reason with him.

Indeed there have been many reasonable points made towards XDM from various people to which they have failed to respond to. Just ignore their posts. There are others who are happy to discuss the issues sensibly.
 

313103

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Absolute nonsense.

Engage with the argument.

How do you engage with someone who doesnt want to be engaged with, i dont have the time or for that matter the inclination to take apart every thing he has said because when i have done so up thread and he has ignored it. What makes you think he will engage on this occasion?
 

AlterEgo

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Well it comes across rightly or wrongly that your posts are very anti RMT and very pro DOO, now that may or may not be the actual case, but it is certainly the impression i am getting from most of your recent posts.

The RMT probably see this as a must win so must fight it, by accepting DOO meekly it would be the thin end of the wedge as far as they are concerned, they also know that despite all the promises made by Govia about the OBS role we all know that they are only a short term measure.

Previous DOO schemes around London have shown that when the guards have gone no one replaces them, most certainly BR did not, and we all know that the whole idea is to 1, reduce the power the RMT has, 2, reduce the headcount, and 3 in a separate part it will eventually close most if not all ticket offices. So you can understand why they fear DOO, take London Overground they had when they announced DOO 148 Conductors and six managers, of those 65 left or took early retirement and two of the managers left. If you repeat this across Southern, Merseyrail, Northern & Scotrail (the current companies with DOO in their plans) that means a net reduction of about half the workforce in everyone of those companies.

Ive heard people say well the union should protect those roles that displaced guards fall into, if the union cant defend its stronger groups, how is it going to defend its weaker ones? The union would have to accept that there days of negotiating workers in the rail industry is at an end and just let the companies do what they want with no recourse.

It is also truly amazing when trade unions in the UK are accused of bringing the country to halt when we have the toughest and most stringent trade union reforms in the western world.

My personal preference is for there always to be a second person on board the train. This is how I prefer trains to be run, but that doesn't mean it's always sustainable.

Quite honestly if I were working for the DfT or a TOC I would find the evidence for DOO worth pursuing. It's been shown that the removal of the guard doesn't affect overall passenger satisfaction or their perception of safety. The RSSB and ORR believe that DOO is a safe way of working, and frankly that's all that matters.

The problem with a lot of (but not all) railway staff is that they don't see things from the other side. There is a pervasive them and us culture in some areas which is counterproductive. Management of course are just as guilty for the continuance of that culture.

I completely support the rights of people to collectively bargain, to strike, and defend their rights. The RMT are finally well outmanoeuvred by the Tories (whom I detest and would never vote for); unfortunately the RMT can't see this themselves and so they're continuing with industrial action, during a parliamentary recess and during a period when the TOC's most lucrative customers will be likely to be on holiday. Instead, they really ought to have been spending the last year forging relationships with disability rights groups, or passenger interest groups. But no, they'll just go out on strike, same as always. It's quite depressing in a way.

The RMT are absolutely opposed to change and don't deny it - this change fundamentally affects the bulk of the RMT's safety critical staff. These staff are the most valuable to the union because the withdrawal of their labour causes the most disruption for the company (because the trains can't run), and if the RMT don't have safety critical staff on their subs sheet, they're f***ed as an industrial force. They'll end up like the TSSA who couldn't tear a wet paper hanky in two.

Travel around Europe. You'll see DOO in a lot of places. There are not that many ticket offices open on European suburban networks.

If I was a guard on GTR threatened with moving to OBS, I'd probably be looking at changing careers. But, try and find a £33,000/year job around that uses the same skills as a guard's. You can't - and I'm afraid that's the truth.
 

craigybagel

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The sooner RMT is replaced by the fairly pragmatic & generally wiser ASLEF the better.

Wait until GTR actually get to the point of announcing a start date for DOO and ASLEF can finally take action, then see how pragmatic and wise they are.
 

Carlisle

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Instead, they really ought to have been spending the last year forging relationships with disability rights groups, or passenger interest groups.
.

How do you think that would have changed the course of this dispute? Wouldn't it merely have emphasised the preference for either a second staff member on trains or first to last staffing of stations, a combination of which are broadly Southerns plans for the foreseeable future anyway
 
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AlterEgo

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How would that have made much difference to the actual dispute? it would merely emphasise the preference for either a second staff member on trains or first to last staffing of stations, a combination of which are broadly Southerns plans for the foreseeable future anyway

Perhaps they'd have been able to convince some groups of people not so easily dismissed by the government about the necessity of the guard.
 
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