Annual 10 most overcrowded list

[OneOffDave]

presumably this is a service which Milton Keynes commuters should use as Virgin can't be bothered to set down at Milton Keynes?

Yeah, I use this one most days and about 2/3 of the passengers get off at MKC. It was great fun when is was a 4 instead of an 8 the other week

 

[infobleep]

Also, not to minimise the problem of overcrowding, but it's interesting to note that the tone of the press seems to reflect the public belief that not getting a seat = cattle truck conditions. Eg. The Times headline states "third of commuters have to stand on trains". No sh*t Sherlock - this is why modern rolling stock (eg 376/378s) offers increased standing room at the expense of seats.

It's hardly unreasonable that people should be expected to stand on short commuter journeys in some of the most densely populated areas of the country.

They also never mention that your ticket does not entitle you to a seat. I think that point isn't well known enough.

On a happier note, a super rare event occurred on Thursday. All 7 trains I travelled on, were on time when I boarded them and left them. I don't mean within 5 minutes but within the minute of the Public Timetable.

2 were often on time anyway but if anyone of the other 5 of the 7 had been on time that would have been rare in itself.

This only occurred because so many commuters were on holiday. In fact on the first train I had to get past four commuters blocking the aisle in two carriages before I found a carriage with plenty of space. Enough for them too. I can only assume the commuters didn't expect to find space because usually there isn't any.

Would be interesting to see which trains were overcrowded in summer and winter. I suspect it would be quiet different.

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[swt_passenger]

I used to work 1B92 from Southampton Airport to Waterloo from time to time until the timetables changed in December, I can say without a doubt that I was always able to work the train after Winchester (non stop to Woking) and the only standees were the ones who opted to stand near the front rather than sit near the back. Only at Woking did that train get overcrowded so that's only 25 minutes, but it is the only fast train from Woking to Waterloo between 0729 and 0754 so has heavy loading from that station. The next fast fast is 1A18 (also on the list) and the only alternative is the 0732 stopper (also on the list).

Shame you can't speed up and get Woking to Waterloo down to 20 minutes. Probably achievable if only HarleyDavidson ran the timetable...

That would solve many problems, because all those extra standees would now be within the PIXC allowance...

 

[infobleep]

Office hours = nightmare commute at certain times of the day. It's a very simple problem with a very complicated resolution. More flexible working should be embraced by employers instead of this insistence that people turn up for work at 9 o'clock on the dot. Unfortunately because of the way industry works, there is not much chance of a solution anytime soon.

My company employ flexible working but the option is still only 7.45 to 10am arrival and 4pm to 6pm leaving. There is some flexibility in the evening as the building closes at 7pm but less fexiablity in the morning as it doesn't open until 7.45am.

In some areas of work people are supporting staff, e. g. IT so need to be in when most other staff are in.

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I used to work 1B92 from Southampton Airport to Waterloo from time to time until the timetables changed in December, I can say without a doubt that I was always able to work the train after Winchester (non stop to Woking) and the only standees were the ones who opted to stand near the front rather than sit near the back. Only at Woking did that train get overcrowded so that's only 25 minutes, but it is the only fast train from Woking to Waterloo between 0729 and 0754 so has heavy loading from that station. The next fast fast is 1A18 (also on the list) and the only alternative is the 0732 stopper (also on the list).

If rolling stock existed, is their space for another fast train between those times?

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Shame you can't speed up and get Woking to Waterloo down to 20 minutes. Probably achievable if only HarleyDavidson ran the timetable...

That would solve many problems, because all those extra standees would now be within the PIXC allowance...

It's possible to get to Guildford in 31 minutes non stop so it can the far off possible to get to Waterloo from Woking within 20 minutes. Of course fat off is still off.

Another solution is to adjust the times to 25 minutes!

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[Eric]

How the hell hasn't the 5:26pm - Leeds - Skipton not made the list?

 

[northwichcat]

How the hell hasn't the 5:26pm - Leeds - Skipton not made the list?

The total capacity of a class 333 train (seated and standing) is 486. To make the top 10 you need over a train carrying over 161% of it's capacity so it would need 783 passengers crammed on to a 4 car 333 to make the list.

There are some crowded trains leaving Leeds in the evening peak but I don't think any services have loadings of approaching 800 passengers leaving Leeds.

 

[40129]

Just heard that commuters to/from Birmingham (Britain's 2nd city) are the second most likely to have to stand.

In other news, the Pope is Catholic and bears ...

 

[The Ham]

If rolling stock existed, is their space for another fast train between those times?

The reason for a lack of trains at that time is that there are a few trains from further out that Woking that don't call there. As such there are paths being used but no capacity for passengers.

There is an empty stock movement though the station at about 0725 which goes on to form a train which starts further in, but chances are even if you started that service at Woking you wouldn't get many people swapping from the existing services.

 

[infobleep]

The reason for a lack of trains at that time is that there are a few trains from further out that Woking that don't call there. As such there are paths being used but no capacity for passengers.

There is an empty stock movement though the station at about 0725 which goes on to form a train which starts further in, but chances are even if you started that service at Woking you wouldn't get many people swapping from the existing services.

Is that the stopping service from West Byfleet? You don't get Woking passengers were it a fast service to Waterloo.

Thus perhaps reclassify in the standing time to 25 minutes would solve the problem.

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[bb21]

The 0735 at Woking zooms past to form the service from West Byfleet, to give people from further up the line a chance at a seat, essentially, in a similar vein to that 1B92 mentioned upthread, and a few other services in the morning peak.

 

[Philip C]

Just heard that commuters to/from Birmingham (Britain's 2nd city) are the second most likely to have to stand.

In other news, the Pope is Catholic and bears ...

If you look at the "General Overcrowding Statistics" in Post #19 you will see that what you heard isn't obviously reflected in those figures.

I'd also be intrigued if someone, knowledgeable, would comment on the impact of restrictions on use of CDRs in the evening peak in urban areas within the Northern franchise area. Equally the effect of free peak travel for the elderly (and young?) within the London Overground franchise. What would also be of interest, but probably impossible to quantify, is the extent to which overcrowding is contributed to by those travelling on rail employees' free and privilege tickets.

 

[infobleep]

The 0735 at Woking zooms past to form the service from West Byfleet, to give people from further up the line a chance at a seat, essentially, in a similar vein to that 1B92 mentioned upthread, and a few other services in the morning peak.

Whereas the 8.05 from Woking starts at Farnham and waits for 6 or so minutes at West Byfleet.

I guess by that point less people are travelling to London.

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[philthetube]

This list would be interesting, and mean more if it was based on rolling stock capacity and not loadings, the way the list is compiled I would have thought that all the top 10 would have been London Overground journeys.

 

[northwichcat]

This list would be interesting, and mean more if it was based on rolling stock capacity and not loadings, the way the list is compiled I would have thought that all the top 10 would have been London Overground journeys.

It is based on rolling stock capacity. The usual capacity figures are 1.35 times the number of seats on a service where the time between stops is less than 20 minutes or 1 times the number of seats where the time between stops is more than 20 minutes. The LO 378s are a special case because they are designed to carry a lot of standing passengers, so can have a much higher number of standing passengers before they are classed as overcrowded. Although, interestingly a couple of years ago Transport Focus published average seat occupancy levels for all operators and despite LO's 378 interiors having a low number of seats, they had a lower average seat occupancy level than TPE.

 

[swt_passenger]

This list would be interesting, and mean more if it was based on rolling stock capacity and not loadings, the way the list is compiled I would have thought that all the top 10 would have been London Overground journeys.

It's the DfTs report and is only about franchises let by them, as mentioned in the text. TfL publish theirs separately. I dare say this is why Merseyrail don't come up either.

Note 2 under the tables also summarises the explanation of how capacity is calculated differently depending on '20 minutes between stops' or not.

 

[SELLCPN]

I regularly catch the 0802 service from Beckenham Junction to Farringdon which makes the autumn list and I expect it to also make any other list that comes out as there is no sign of this reducing.

I find it even stranger that come the 2018 timetable this train will only run as far as blackfriars when over half the passenger load stay on this service to city thameslink and Farringdon.

 

[Matt Taylor]

There's no track capacity for an additional service at Woking during that time, although you could squeeze one in through Woking it would then conflict with a Woking-Waterloo stopper that runs fast from Surbiton and also traffic joining the fast lines at Hampton Court Junction from Guildford.

 

[Class 170101]

presumably this is a service which Milton Keynes commuters should use as Virgin can't be bothered to set down at Milton Keynes?

The Crewe train always used to be a 12-car at 1805, dropping eight at Northampton, before they changed the timetable. No reason why the same couldn't apply now, dropping them at Milton Keynes (where most of the traffic goes anyway).

There wouldn't be the time to split at Milton Keynes before being caught by the 17:57 ex Euston. Which is then followed on the Weedon by 18:00, 18:03, 18:07 and 18:10 departures.

However there is six minutes in the timetable at Rugby - perhaps it would be more reliable to split there instead.

 

[sd0733]

There wouldn't be the time to split at Milton Keynes before being caught by the 17:57 ex Euston. Which is then followed on the Weedon by 18:00, 18:03, 18:07 and 18:10 departures.

However there is six minutes in the timetable at Rugby - perhaps it would be more reliable to split there instead.

That would probably be possible in the time, just, but at that time in the evening there arent any spare units kicking about so it would just mean short forming something else and further overcrowding that instead.

 

[infobleep]

That would probably be possible in the time, just, but at that time in the evening there arent any spare units kicking about so it would just mean short forming something else and further overcrowding that instead.

Are there any plans to resolve the short shortages? I've not kept up with developmwnts on London Midland.

There's no track capacity for an additional service at Woking during that time, although you could squeeze one in through Woking it would then conflict with a Woking-Waterloo stopper that runs fast from Surbiton and also traffic joining the fast lines at Hampton Court Junction from Guildford.

I imagine the service will always be in the top 10 then. I'm not surprised by your answer though as they run so many trains into Waterloo, whilst trying to cover as many stations as they reasonably can on route. It's never enough but there just isn't the room, beyond train lengthening up to 10 or 12 cars and some are already at that length.

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[philthetube]

That'd be because the HSTs standing capacity isn't very good compared to commuter units. A crush loaded HST may only be 10% over it's seated capacity for example, when we are looking at up to 60% over capacity for the top 10.

If seating capacity continues to be a measure will not class 700's take all the top 10 positions in the future?

 

[WatcherZero]

Only if the majority of people are standing for longer than 20 minutes. If they are only being used for short hops or over crowded only on the final leg it wont be an issue.