Crosscountry / MG11 ??

[techno]

Concerning 2 incidents in the past 5 weeks.

My journey/story is like this.

I start at destination A > arrive at destination B to change train > to arrive at final destination C.


I would usually buy a ticket whilst on train A (a Northern Rail Service) to B.
I would then board a Cross Country Service from B to C and purchase a separate ticket there.

I did this about once or twice a week with no issues.

Last month I bought a ticket whilst on train A to B... but this time I lost/discarded my ticket (something which I usually do).
I got off the trian at destination C where I voluntarily
approached a an Agent on the platform to purchase a ticket for between B and C. For the first time ever, i was asked to produce my ticket for my journey between A and B. I advised that I did not have this on this occasion and never thought to keep it as it has never been a problem and thought that it was useless

as as far as I was aware as I thought the ticket had now expired. The Agent, without further a do, took the view that I couldn't have got through a ticket barrier at destination B where I change over (even though there isn't one) and in any event I should have been in possession of a valid ticket before boarding. I was immediately questioned under caution. I explained that I was always under the impression that if I bought a ticket from Northern Rail it wouldn't be valid on a Cross Country service -thus I always bought the tickets separately.

Any how, apparently I am getting an MG 11 to fill in in some point.

........Now on to the SECOND PART.

I and have since bought tickets for the whole journey now as I understand that
the ticket is valid for the whole journey over different services.

You'd think I could take it on the chin and put the whole thing to bead!

HOWEVER...

When I was traveling on the Crosscountry service again (between B and C), I asked to buy a ticket (ON THE TRAIN)... only the same Agent that apprehended me in the first incident (clearly holding some sort of grudge) was there and decides that she is going to question me under caution AGAIN! Even though I already asked to buy a ticket

I explained that being able to consistently buy a ticket before I board the train every morning is extremely difficult and unrealistic, (I'm pretty sure that anyone with common sense knows this is the reality of the situation), I it's widely accepted that purchasing a ticket from an inspector whilst on the train is quite normal.

So I explained in my caution that I agreed i was traveling without a ticket, that I didn't get one because I was late, and that I asked to buy a ticket on the train and had every intent to pay, but was declined the opportunity and proceeded straight to caution.

Anyhow, It looks like i'm getting a second MG 11 witness statement sent to me now!

Any advice on dealing Crosscountry/ MG11's or what to expect

would be appreciated.

 

[AlterEgo]

Firstly, I think we really need some locations and times (omit the dates if you like) for us to help you. We need to know what the barriering and ticketing arrangements are at each station.

Secondly,

I explained that being able to consistently buy a ticket before I board the train every morning is extremely difficult and unrealistic

- sorry, but the law says that where there are ticketing facilities (read: booking office or machine) at the station where you start your journey, you MUST buy a ticket.

Thirdly, CrossCountry are renowned for zero-tolerance Judge Dredd style justice to revenue protection, I'm afraid. I was very much against this approach when I used to work for them, and they used to prosecute literally every single MG11 issued. I understand there has been a change of staff since then, but I don't have up to date info on whether they are willing to waive MG11s for an "admin fee".

I'd repeat that we really do need specific details to help here.

 

[skyhigh]

It's a bit confusing with the A, B, C thing - but the general rule is that if there are facilities to purchase tickets at the station you have to do so before you board the train otherwise you're committing an offence. I admit it does send mixed messages though that someone will sell you a ticket on the train one time, and another time this happens.

I'd also doubt the inspector has a specific grudge against you - they deal with hundreds of people on a daily basis and I'd hardly expect them to remember you over a five week period.

I'll leave it to someone else with better knowledge to comment on what to expect now and the first incident so that you get the best advice.

Edit: AlterEgo beat me to it!

 

[Agent_c]

Pretty much what everyone else has said so far. If there are ticketing facilities at A, you have to buy a ticket at A before you board, otherwise you're at risk of a penalty fare or prosecution.

If there aren't, then thats a different story of course.

The reason for this is to stop people chancing it, and only buying a ticket if demanded.

 

[cuccir]

I'd also doubt the inspector has a specific grudge against you - they deal with hundreds of people on a daily basis and I'd hardly expect them to remember you over a five week period.

We do have quite good evidence that people who have shown unusual ticket buying patterns that suggest possible evasion are noted and targeted for checks - both positively in ways which reveal very complex ways of avoiding paying for fares and (more rarely) in negative ways which seem to incorporate bullying.

In the case of techno, it would not surprise me at all if the RPI (inspector/agent) had kept an eye out for him or her.

As noted above, all this depends on what facilities there are at A - it's easiest to tell us where this (and B and C) is but if you don't want to, then we need to know whether there is an open ticket office or ticket machine there at the time at which you travel.

How often do you travel? Is this a commute? If it is, then CrossCountry will be suspicious that you haven't chosen to buy a season ticket - is there a reason for this and were you asked about it by the RPI.

 

[AlterEgo]

As noted above, all this depends on what facilities there are at A - it's easiest to tell us where this (and B and C) is but if you don't want to, then we need to know whether there is an open ticket office or ticket machine there at the time at which you travel.

I was thinking that there may be no ticket facilities at A.

However, as the OP had thrown his A-B ticket away, he had no proof that A was where he started his journey, and the RPI was entitled to assume he started his journey instead at B (which probably does have ticket facilities).
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

How often do you travel? Is this a commute? If it is, then CrossCountry will be suspicious that you haven't chosen to buy a season ticket - is there a reason for this and were you asked about it by the RPI.

CrossCountry are very suspicious about commuters without season tickets. They know who they are and they do find them, eventually - though I would be reluctant to say on a public forum how they do this.

 

[LexyBoy]

OP says they "did this [journey] once or twice a week", hence no Season.

Seems a pretty sad story to me: a woeful understanding of railway ticketing (not judging the OP - the TOCs do a pretty poor job of promoting a unified network), a total acceptance until fairly recently of "buy on board" across the Northern network, coupled with a hard-line approach by XC equals this mess.

I'll leave it to others with more experience on how to handle it from here - as has been said, a criminal offence has been committed (twice) and the aim now is to avoid it going to court.

One thing puzzles me: on the first occasion, why did the inspector ask to see your A>B ticket if you were only asking for a B>C ticket? And is this a single journey or return - if the latter, did you not have the return portion still (I know not valid, but I daresay would help you out in this scenario).

 

[voyagerdude220]

I'm probably missing something which the OP has already mentioned, but, I'm confused, why doesn't the OP buy the tickets for their journey from A to B/B to C at the first available time to do so- i.e. with the Conductor on the train which they usually buy the ticket from, for their journey from A to B? They could also sell the ticket from B to C.

Does your journey from A to C, changing to B allow enough time for it to be an official connection for your journey?

 

[techno]

Hi

I don't want to give locations but I shall answer in mroe detail accordingly.

INCIDENT 1)

1)Station A - the first station where MY journey began in the morning does have ticket facilities. It's a Northern Rail service. There is an inspector on every day who sells tickets from whom I would usually purchase a ticket.
On this occasion I purchased a ticket to destination B... (see next paragraph..)

2) Destination B - I got off here, this where I change train/service to get to destination C; there are tickets barriers to enter and exit Station B, but no internal barriers between platforms - thus, ticket barriers do not apply to my scenario. Station B is where I board the Crosscountry to my final destination (C). (see next paragraph)

3) I got off the train at my final destination and wilfully walked up to someone with a ticket machine and asked for a ticket. They were a Virgin employee and said I need to ask the Crosscountry people who were present on the platform.

NB:
a) The reason why I bought y separate tickets is because I was under the impression that a ticket Bought at Northern Rail, would not be valid on Cross country... In honesty, I've never looked into this in detail, just assumed it was the case. This is plausible, as there is a Northern rail service
to my final destination but it is too late.


INCIDENT 2

1) I have now been buying one ticket which covers my entire journey (A to B to C) but on this occasion I didn't manage to buy at the station or on the first train.

2) On this occasion I approached a ticket inspector who was on board the Crosscountry train. The inspector/agent who apprehended me on the first occasion was present and ordered the ticket guy not to serve me and instead ordered him to proceeded with another caution instead (noting, that she DID remember me from the first incident).

3) On questioning UNDER CAUTION this time I confirmed why I was without a ticket was due to lateness (even suggested to look at CCTV as you'd see me running to the first train so I didn't miss it). I confirmed that I was already in the process of buying a ticket before they decided questioned me.
I gave no comment when they asked If i knew I should have a ticket before boarding.I refused to sign the statement. (Does it really matter? + I don';t really know my legal rights).

Hope this helps further,. And thank you kindly in advance for your assistance.

I work in a regulated and respected profession and fear of the consequences to my future.

 

[clagmonster]

In the first incident, how did you pay for your A to B journey? If by card, then you will at least have proof of a transaction taking place and the fare paid, but probably not the details of the journey. If A is unstaffed, this should remove the possibility of a byelaw 18 offence.

What worries me is that by paying only the A to B fare to the guard on the first train, I think legally you have shown intent to avoid payment because the guard on that train is also an opportunity to pay the B to C fare. Thus, I think a Regulation of Railways Act offence has been committed.

My questions would be:
1) is station A staffed
2) why aren't both fares paid at the first available opportunity

 

[techno]

OP says they "did this [journey] once or twice a week", hence no Season.

Seems a pretty sad story to me: a woeful understanding of railway ticketing (not judging the OP - the TOCs do a pretty poor job of promoting a unified network), a total acceptance until fairly recently of "buy on board" across the Northern network, coupled with a hard-line approach by XC equals this mess.

I'll leave it to others with more experience on how to handle it from here - as has been said, a criminal offence has been committed (twice) and the aim now is to avoid it going to court.

One thing puzzles me: on the first occasion, why did the inspector ask to see your A>B ticket if you were only asking for a B>C ticket? And is this a single journey or return - if the latter, did you not have the return portion still (I know not valid, but I daresay would help you out in this scenario).

He asked to see my other ticket because of the following:

1) I asked for ticket from B to C.. The ticket inspector said "how did you get through the ticket barrier at B? "

I replied " I came from A to B, so there are no internal ticket barriers which I need to pass through"

Agent replied "Ok, but do you have your A to B ticket?"

Me "No, I would normally keep them but I think I may have discarded it at eiteher the Coffe shop or on the train I just gto off"

Agent then, with no lea way, questioendme under caution.

The situation regarding buying a season ticket is also convoluted, in the sense that my journey changed a lot due to where my girlfriend lives (in manchester) and I'd spend mos of the week there. Sometems I wouldn't know ifi waseven going back to destination A until later that day,(depending on her work schedule)

 

[techno]

In the first incident, how did you pay for your A to B journey? If by card, then you will at least have proof of a transaction taking place and the fare paid, but probably not the details of the journey. If A is unstaffed, this should remove the possibility of a byelaw 18 offence.

What worries me is that by paying only the A to B fare to the guard on the first train, I think legally you have shown intent to avoid payment because the guard on that train is also an opportunity to pay the B to C fare. Thus, I think a Regulation of Railways Act offence has been committed.

My questions would be:
1) is station A staffed
2) why aren't both fares paid at the first available opportunity

Here's another problem, the tICKET machines dont; accept my cooperative card, so they usualyl swipe my card. But this time my card was cracked along the magnetic strip. I paid in cash. And I usually pay in cash for this reason.

 

[robbeech]

If you are planning on going to C, then with station A unstaffed, the all important first opportunity to purchase a ticket to C is onboard the first train as you rightly say. However, as you've no yet undertaken the journey from B to C purchase at this time is not compulsory, but if station B is staffed or has a ticket machine then this is the next and final opportunity to purchase. If there isn't enough connection time that isn't the TOC's problem. If the first train is running late, that still isn't the second TOC's problem, though if you are lucky there may then be a further opportunity to purchase a B to C ticket on the first train, but i'm not sure whether that is deemed acceptable on every TOC. Whilst it is academic, if you purchased a B to C ticket as you were delayed and then subsequently missed the connection, you'd not be entitled to any form of Delay compensation as you'd purchased the ticket after the delay was published. There really are many benefits to purchasing a through ticket.

Rob

 

[Haywain]

In the first incident, how did you pay for your A to B journey? If by card, then you will at least have proof of a transaction taking place and the fare paid, but probably not the details of the journey. If A is unstaffed, this should remove the possibility of a byelaw 18 offence.

What worries me is that by paying only the A to B fare to the guard on the first train, I think legally you have shown intent to avoid payment because the guard on that train is also an opportunity to pay the B to C fare. Thus, I think a Regulation of Railways Act offence has been committed.

My questions would be:
1) is station A staffed
2) why aren't both fares paid at the first available opportunity

Your questions appear to have been answered by the OP:

So I explained in my caution that I agreed i was traveling without a ticket, that I didn't get one because I was late, and that I asked to buy a ticket on the train and had every intent to pay, but was declined the opportunity and proceeded straight to caution.

 

[clagmonster]

That doesn't explain why the B to C fare wasn't paid at the same time as the A to B fare.

I also note that the passenger states at the start that they normally pay their fare on the Northern train, however on this occasion they didn't pay their B to C train due to lateness. Is this lateness of the Northern train or am I missing something?

 

[najaB]

I've little to add that hasn't already been said, other than that:

Does your journey from A to C, changing to B allow enough time for it to be an official connection for your journey?

Is a bit of a red herring - connection times don't really enter into the equation here, especially if there are ticket vending facilities at 'A'.

 

[Flamingo]

Unless the OP is buying their A to B ticket from a TVM at A, they could easily buy both tickets at the same time from either a Guard or Ticket Office.

Again, connection times are a red herring. It sounds like "pay when challenged" shortfaring to me, and the OP will have to produce a lot of evidence to persuade a magistrate otherwise (as that's where this will end up).

RPI probably wasn't bearing a grudge - just understandably exasperated at having the same face in front of them AGAIN without a ticket. Once is unfortunate, twice smacks of carelesness, and if I was presented with this story I would follow the Judge Judy maxim - it it doesn't sound true, it probably isn't.

I remember a thread about similar in South Wales a while back. Ticket from Valleys to Cardiff, got the shock of their life when on arrival at Neath at 9pm (long after Gateline at Neath usually closes up) there was a Revenue team there. They got done.

 

[Haywain]

Unless the OP is buying their Ato B ticket from a TVM at A, they could easily buy both tickets at the same time from either a Guard or Ticket Office.

Again, connection times are a red herring. It sounds like "pay when challenged" shortfaring to me, and the OP will have to produce a lot of evidence to persuade a magistrate otherwise (as that's where this will end up).

I remember a thread about similar in South Wales a while back. Ticket from Valleys to Cardiff, got the shock of their life when on arrival at Neath at 9pm (long after Gateline at Neath usually closes up) there was a Revenue team there. They got done.

The OP does comment that they were unaware that tickets bought from one TOC could then be used on the services of another TOC. I'm not going to make a judgement about how plausible that is.

 

[robbeech]

The OP does comment that they were unaware that tickets bought from one TOC could then be used on the services of another TOC. I'm not going to make a judgement about how plausible that is.

I think it is less plausible but by no means impossible when we add in the line :

I did this about once or twice a week with no issues.

 

[Flamingo]

I wonder how often the OP was not asked to buy a ticket on either one or other train (although I am sure they were sitting there, cash in hand, eagerly listening out for the Guard to come through)...

 

[6Gman]

I wonder how often the OP was not asked to buy a ticket on either one or other train (although I am sure they were sitting there, cash in hand, eagerly listening out for the Guard to come through)...

You're thinking what I was thinking ...

 

[gray1404]

We need to know the names of the stations. I do not like these station A, B, C type posts.

 

[island]

Each time you boarded a train without a ticket at a station with ticketing facilities, you committed a criminal offence.

I don't know you and I don't have any reason to pre-judge you, but your behaviour very much resembles someone who pays only when challenged. You may have a job to do explaining yourself in court.

 

[najaB]

We need to know the names of the stations.

Not really. The only thing we need to know is if 'A' has ticket issuing facilities which were available when techno boarded the train. If, as we suspect, there were then the identities of the stations is irrelevant.

I do not like these station A, B, C type posts.

Nor do I. But that's what we have been given to work with.

 

[techno]

if the matter was to proceed to magistares, I'm aware of the strict liability nature of the offence and would probably plead guilty.
apparently the matter isbeing dealt with now by transport investigation ltd...
any advice from here?

there is a ticket office at each stop of my journey, granted... but at B you need a tikcet in the first place to get through the exit barrier to the ticket office.. hence why it's just easier to get a ticket on the second train or at the final destination (rember that I would have been coming back the same day on these occasions).

there are some other factors which should be considered:
1) there is 9 times out of 10, a ticket inspector on the first train... so it's easier and less stressful to purchase this way rather than rushing aroudn at 7/8am in ticket ques. Naturally, one would never see this as an issue (i think 8/10 people i boarded with also bought a ticket form the inspector instead of on a platfrom).

2) unfortunatley my transaction history is scarce, this is becasue, for soem reason, the train company's credit card/ticket machines do not accept my debit card.. the inspectors would sometimes be willing to swipe my card (even without cheking fora signature!!) but in other cases they would not agree to do this, so I carry cash incase this caususes issues (which there was one close call!).

Furthermore, since the first incidencet, as promised i always bought a single ticket for the whoel journey.. i have managed to find some ofthe tickets i've bought over the past month showing that i have been complying with this (though i've not kept all of my tickets as i didn't think it would be necessary).

i honestly feel now that I've been cornered into a situation where if i don't manage to get a ticket on time then i've been basically stripped of any chances to purchase a ticket whilst traveling, which may force me to quit my job.

one can draw as many inferences as they like in regards to the "pay only when challenged stance" but I can say with complete honestly that this is almost a practical impossibility of avoiding payment due to the very rigorous and consistent presence of ticket inspectors on the trains when i make this journey. the realiy is that I (and the people) can have very busy lives, and i think the train companies (by some unwritten rule) knoew that their customers are not always able to buy tickets before boarding. I frankly think it's disgusting how these companies have been delegated power to hand out stirct liability offence. Clearly the government have some common interest here. I don't see why a penatly procedure at the civil law is not an adequate course of action.

another point to mention, i noted with absolute accuracy that the inspector before cautioning stated that i was being question for breach of "rail way byelaws under s18 of the Transport Act 2001"... I can't actually find this Act even exists.. technically they must state the alleged offence before caution,.. ?

 

[robbeech]

Am I right in thinking that the op had a few posts that needed moderating.
Post #9 seems to give us a little more detail which I seem to have missed when initially reading. It answers a couple of questions. Namely that station A IS staffed.

Rob
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
If we throw in some random names that fit some of the criteria we could use Worksop, Sheffield, Doncaster.

Worksop is staffed, Sheffield is also staffed and has both a northern service and a cross country that goes to Doncaster. The northern service takes twice as long, and you'd be very much likely to meet virgin (east coast) staff at Doncaster.
I'm aware of the barriers or no barriers at Sheffield it is just an example.

Put quite simply there is a machine and ticket office at Worksop (A) where when working and/or open you must purchase your ticket. By not doing so you commit an offence. Lateness is no excuse.
The guards on these trains are usually fairly lenient and will just sell you a ticket on the train as some of the stations on that route are unstaffed. What they fail tell you (I have used these stations as an example as its where I live so I have experience of the journey) is that you should purchase at the machine.

The particular cross country service you must buy a ticket before you board. Again many on board staff are (arguably too) lenient and will just sell you a ticket. This is probably where the problem starts, if staff are often willing to sell you a ticket on board people assume that's acceptable where as in reality it's not only unacceptable it's an offence to not have a ticket prior to boarding.

 

[najaB]

Station A - the first station where MY journey began in the morning does have ticket facilities.

That's all that really matters. It is your responsibility to purchase a ticket at the first opportunity - which was at 'Station A'. The fact that you have sometimes been given an opportunity to correct this omission later in your journey doesn't absolve you of this obligation.

Bear this in mind in any correspondence with XC.

 

[Haywain]

I think the stations are pretty much irrelevant. However, the following tells us that the first time is likely to have occurred during a joint revenue protection excercise - I base this on the fact that CrossCountry do not have any station staff. Therefore we can deduce that station C is likely to be a Virgin operated station that is also served by CrossCountry and Northern, and probably not normally barriered.

3) I got off the train at my final destination and wilfully walked up to someone with a ticket machine and asked for a ticket. They were a Virgin employee and said I need to ask the Crosscountry people who were present on the platform.

 

[Mojo]

I think the stations are pretty much irrelevant. However, the following tells us that the first time is likely to have occurred during a joint revenue protection excercise - I base this on the fact that CrossCountry do not have any station staff. Therefore we can deduce that station C is likely to be a Virgin operated station that is also served by CrossCountry and Northern, and probably not normally barriered.

The only XC station staff are at Edinburgh, but they are purely for dispatch and customer service, they do not sell tickets.

 

[cuccir]

techno, as Robreach noted above many of the posts made apparently since your more recent comments will have been made without having seen your responses as new posters have to have their first five (I think) posts moderated.

In both cases, you should be aware that as far as the law is concerned, you are obliged to buy tickets for your journey before boarding, if facilities are available. Without the name of the station, we must follow your claim that they were available at A both times.

In the case of incident 1, your answer of not being aware of the ability to buy for a whole journey is plausible. It wouldn't, I'm afraid, stand up if CrossCountry wanted to prosecute you, but there's always a chance that they might look sympathetically on your response and give you the benefit of the doubt. Incident 2, after you've already been stopped and informed of your responsibilities, probably reduces the chances of this somewhat. Running late is not an excuse for not having a ticket.

So what will happen next? Cross Country will investigate both incidents and decide if they want to take further action. They may drop the case (which seems unlikely). They may try to prosecute you, in which case they have two options: under the Railway Bylaws or under the Regulations of the Rail Act (RORA). A Bylaw prosecution is 'strict liability' so requires no evidence of intent - it is likely that the evidence that they already have would be enough to prosecute you. However, it does not carry a criminal record, and fines are usually in the low hundreds or even tens of pounds. A RORA prosecution requires evidence that you intended to avoid paying your fare - it is much harder to determine if they would have the evidence to succeed with one of these. This prosecution would carry a criminal record, and a higher fine in the mid to upper hundreds.

It is often possible to offer to settle out of court before a prosecution, if Cross Country inform you that they intend to seek that route.