Deepgreen
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Indeed - and 30 year old cheese is quite like chalk!
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Southern DOO: ASLEF members vote 79.1% for revised deal
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Indeed - and 30 year old cheese is quite like chalk!
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If you had made it through the application and assessment process but found that your job was at risk. Would you strike even knowing you were on a hiding to nothing ? Would you fight for others to have the employment opportunities ?
Have the recent strikes led to employment opportunities being retained though?
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I think the issue with the recent dispute is that GTR have been backed all the way by the DFT
Well James, what would you do if it was your job?
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I don't agree that the role has totally changed. Plus regards to the remuneration base salary is the same, although commission structure has changed but it is not a OTE based job and commission should not be relied on. I might consider striking if I thought it was going to achieve something. But it would appear that regrettably it hasn't.
But back to the station host roles what is the likely outcome of another strike.
The staff on the lowest wages losing parking and travel perks, overtime being cut, unable to swap shifts ask a colleague to cover a Sunday. To then find out that the DFT have told GTR it is a requirement of the franchise and that you struck in vain.
An earlier comment said about Horton saying he could not guarantee staffing levels in the next franchise, sorry but of course he can't say anything regards this surely he can only answer about this franchise.
Let's say this whole dispute hadn't happened and conductors role hadn't changed. But behind the scenes stations not suitable for DOO despatch had thorough surveys done for equipment needed to bring them up to scratch. Slowly over the next 4-5 years lighting etc was made suitable, cameras installed but no monitors just yet. Then when the ITT came out for the next franchise it basically said all lines have now been signed off as suitable for DOO plus the entire fleet trains will have the necessary equipment and this is how all trains must run. All of a sudden the conductors would know that redundancy was on the cards with minimal time to prepare.
It could be argued at least by introducing the OBS role which GTR have committed to for the length of the franchise gives a number of years for staff to prepare if they expect to be made redundant.
The key to your last paragraph is expect. That doesn't say they will be.
A better solution would be for someone to say, we will be making this role redundant in 5 years time but until then you will have a job. At least then they know what is happening.
OK so Horton can't commit beyond the current franchise but perhaps he needs to spell it out much more clearly to passengers and staff that his commitment is only for the length of their franchise. They have been saying no one will lose their jobs but they need to say no one will lose their jobs for the next so many years this franchise has left to run. After that we don't know. That would be accurate.
What do you think James?
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I totally agree with you he should have given a cast iron guarantee no cut in staffing levels once the OBS and Station Host roles have been introduced, during this franchise but no commitment can be given to the following franchise.
Regards OBS/Conductors being removed entirely in the next franchise if that was to happen would that be down to the DFT or franchise bidder/holder?
Of course they won't say that because it sounds negative.
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Commission has changed and that may lead to a reduction in their take home pay. Due to having their responsibilities reduced means that future pay rises will be negligible. They are not required so why pay them a competitive salary ?
They don't see it as striking in vain. They see it as their only hope.
Which isn't true. If franchises where only able to negotiate within their franchise time then why do contracts have permanent clauses. The DOO clause was negotiated under one franchise but still in place for every other franchise to come. They negotiated far far beyond their franchise. Guaranteeing an OBS for every service will be similar. It fixes the role forever. What they want is for the role to be removed at will and no guarantees in place. When Mr Horton was asked if it could be a guaranteed role. He would not commit and stated they want that flexibility to run a train without an OBS. When that same question was asked to Mick Cash. He wanted there to be guarantees beyond the franchise and wanted guarantees that the role would be a more permanent one. The MP who asked also did not want a lack of an OBS to prevent a train from running.
But they wouldn't. Irrespective of the state of the stations and the equipment provided they are contractually obliged to keep the Guard on board. There is no fear of redundancy. It would also mean that ASLEF would need to agree DOO services. I believe (correct me if I'm wrong) that the Guard role is staying on some services because they cannot be removed and those services are not DOO. They have to keep a % of Guards. The argument is around routes cleared for DOO but still have Guards. They are considered surplus to requirement.
It could be. However, what would you do knowing your job is finished with in a few years ? Stay ? Retire ? Wait it out for the redundancy payment ? Get a new job ? Would you join the company knowing you only had a short term employment ? When your literally staring unemployment in the face and you have family, mortgage, bills etc. Do you roll over an accept it or strike ?
A lot of these staff see it as no choice.
If you had been successful in getting the Trainee Job you applied for but was then told its only for 5 years then your out of a job. How would you feel ? If you had made it as a Driver but then dragged a person down a platform would you still consider it "safe"
It was asked in the meeting today about the safety aspect and Mick Cash stated figures of 300 (ish) passengers falling down into the gap on tubes. The MP response was that out of 1.2 million passenger a day... it is an "acceptable" level of safety not "safe"
These staff are dealing with those kinds of issues every day. You should be more mindful before you denigrate them.
Wasn't the increase in the tube to do with the new trains being further from the platform? Nothing to do with DOO? I'm not sure how in this instance presence of a guard would have prevented this rise.
Again cause and effect are being misinterpreted. There has been an increase of people falling in the gap. But that increase is not the result of DOO. It's the result of poor rolling stock design.
Again cause and effect are being misinterpreted. There has been an increase of people falling in the gap. But that increase is not the result of DOO. It's the result of poor rolling stock design.
speedy_sticks
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How about the disabled? Do you care?
I'm afraid that you misunderstand the situation and these are not the same.
With regards to agreements with staff on T&Cs, which includes DOO, these are not commitments for future franchises, but simply down to TUPE.
The Franchise Agreement expressly states that you cannot contract beyond the end of the franchise without permission from DfT. DfT doesn't tend to give such permission easily due to it limiting competition for the next franchise and it tends to be restricted to capital assets that need replacing/improving. It would certainly never allow a commitment on future staff numbers.
DarloRich
Veteran Member
Again your trusting nature shines through! You think these top managers will hold true to thier word, many do not. I believe they will do away with the OBS role as quickly as they can. We will have to see. However, for the staff in question it is much more serious.
Agreed - but being TUPE'd as a safety critical guard must be infinitely better than being TUPE'd as an OBS!
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Isn't that mostly the fault of rather poor, short sighted and weak previous management for not being more free and willing to explain clearly to all their potential recruits in recent years that the position they're applying for was mainly an operational roll right now but would in all probabilities soon become more a customer service based one, allowing them a more realistically informed decision at the time
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A DfT official in charge of future franchising and government policy should have been there to answer a lot of questions. Peter Wilkinson would fit the bill but apparently he's been banned anywhere near a microphone or camera. :roll:
I hope eventually you may get the gist of what a few of us are saying. The RMT are a trade union and trade unions are there to protect members jobs, conditions and other work related needs. It's not a perfect organisation, no trade union is.
A conductor/guard is required as per the railway rule book to be on services that are non-DOO. Not only IMHO a safer method of working it also protects jobs and establishments at depots for future franchises as well. It protects passengers as well, as your ticket gets you two safety critical, safety trained staff and not an agency worker like G4S checking your ticket. It doesn't matter what owner or uniform you wear, you still end up working to the same or similar terms and conditions as the last company. I know of several staff members who have worked at the same depot and rolling stock for nearly 30 years under many different uniforms and owners.
As soon as you remove the requirement to have a guard, the service becomes DOO. The guards then become this OBS role and aren't required for operations and that is what I call a luxury. Luxury's are the first thing that new franchises either remove. TTIs, RPIs and catering staff are not required to move trains, TOCs see it as an expendable cost and will simply remove them to save money.
There are many staff members that will still work at the same depot long after Horton, Dyan, Govia and GTR have left the building. It's a long term thing, as soon as you agree to losing the operational protection that you have for a job then your on borrowed time.
In theory, if GTR (and the DfT) get their way, they successfully bring in this OBS role. Then they realise they can't make the profit margins they want from the franchise (currently at 1.5%, much less than bus operations) so they bail out of the franchise. The DfT can look at the options again, refranchise and the new owners can then dispense with OBS and replace them with much cheaper and not safety critical trained RPIs in lesser numbers that will just penalty fare every once in a blue moon.
I'll await the topics in around 5 years time when people start asking "Where was the On Board Supervisor" or "Why are there no ticket checkers on Southern trains".... I don't want to say 'I told you so' as it means over 400 people have potentially lost their jobs.
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No because the previous managers (meet the new boss, same as the new boss) worked for the Old Southern which was headed up by exactly the same parent company and their response would be....
"There are no plans to replace or remove Conductors on trains"
speedy_sticks
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He was originally supposed to appear before it got rescheduled due to Brexit.
They need to another one with the Government and DfT reps though.
They need to another one with the Government and DfT reps though.
Deepgreen
Established Member
"Old", if the words are from 'The Who'.
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In the most recent figures (from 2014) there were 298 PTI incidents in the whole year. There are more than 4 Million customer journeys per day on London Underground.
Yes, it is largely believed to be down to the S Stock trains which are lower down for accessibility reasons, meaning that at certain locations they are further away from the platform edge.
A recent RAIB report (https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa.../file/505912/R042016_160309_Clapham_South.pdf) makes note of the fact "that the overall accident rate at the PTI is lower on London Underground than on the mainline."
GTR, in a new leaflet, say they are doing all they can to restore a full service as soon as possible. Well they are not because today they could announce a ceasing of the extension of DOO and the issue would end.
On a very packed train, where everyone had been pushing from behind to get on, someone was discussing the issue with someone else.
They were not outright blaming the guard. They admitted the strike didn't help but they also said overtime bans and staff being sick to fill in forms to apply for the new roles, along with Southern not reciting enough staff is part of the problem.
They also said the service was better on strike days.
I think they had come off a 12 carriage train, which had terminated at East Croydon today, rather than London Victoria. That train is usually very busy. They even had to close the footbridge access to platforms 1 and 2 for a time.
There was one advantage to everyone pushing, the train didn't get so further delayed leaving East Croydon. The safety of passengers in such situations isn't so important. I jest by the way.
I actually held people back slightly so some in front of me were not so squashed by me. I doubt every man and woman wasn't to be squashed by me!
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On a very packed train, where everyone had been pushing from behind to get on, someone was discussing the issue with someone else.
They were not outright blaming the guard. They admitted the strike didn't help but they also said overtime bans and staff being sick to fill in forms to apply for the new roles, along with Southern not reciting enough staff is part of the problem.
They also said the service was better on strike days.
I think they had come off a 12 carriage train, which had terminated at East Croydon today, rather than London Victoria. That train is usually very busy. They even had to close the footbridge access to platforms 1 and 2 for a time.
There was one advantage to everyone pushing, the train didn't get so further delayed leaving East Croydon. The safety of passengers in such situations isn't so important. I jest by the way.
I actually held people back slightly so some in front of me were not so squashed by me. I doubt every man and woman wasn't to be squashed by me!
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Xenophon PCDGS
Veteran Member
Based upon the involvement of the DfT and the way that the TOC has maintained its stance so far, do you really imagine that your aspiration that I have emboldened above will be acceded to?
No so therefore they are not doing everything they can.
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87015
Established Member
This might have been covered, but to clear something up for me, on guard operated 377s currently, who releases the doors?
LBSCR Times
Member
The driver......
DarloRich
Veteran Member
the point some posters seem to miss, perhaps having swallowed the MP's and GTR press line, is that the dispute isn't really about who opens the doors or presses a button but rather the provision of a suitably safety qualified staff member within the train at all times whose responsibility is the safety of the train and its passengers.
Better not travel on any London Overground/Underground train,most commuter trains from every London termini bar Waterloo & Euston plus Glasgow. All DOO for years.. Oh & mind the Glasgow subway,lines 1 & 14 in Paris & metros in 12 other world cities. They don't have any staff aboard. It's been like this for years. Why are they full of satisfied passengers? 'Cos they are safe & more reliable than a train with a guard who might not turn up & so get the train cancelled. Good luck Southern,stick to your plans. We will be wondering what the fuss was about in a year.
Well... during the Committee meeting with MP's the other day, Mr Horton told them that all OBS' will be safety trained to deal with emergencies and on-board equipment. I thought the intention was to remove their safety status, and I've not heard one guard yet to say that the safety critical element was to be retained?!?
Can anyone here concur with Mr Horton's testament?
Can anyone here concur with Mr Horton's testament?
Islineclear3_1
Established Member
I can confirm that is what he said in front of the Committee but that is probably what he would like them to hear. What his real intention is of course, I would not concur with
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