Southern DOO: ASLEF members vote 79.1% for revised deal

[Muzz]

Not sure if this has already been posted, but I've had the following email from my MP Jeremy Quin [Horsham] about a (semi) public meeting.

I have secured agreement with GTR that they will send Alex Foulds, their Passenger Service Director to explain the recent disruption at a public meeting which I will chair to be held on Saturday 9th July from 10am - 11:30am at the Drill Hall Horsham, Denne Road, Horsham, RH12 1JF. A short statement will be made following which there will be a question and answer session. I very much hope you are able attend. On grounds of space I am afraid the meeting is only open to residents of the Horsham constituency.
While I have been a fierce critic on GTR's performance - which the PM agreed was poor - I do think that the current problems are a direct result of disputes on working practices. On Monday, 4th July with other MPs I am meeting Mr Mick Cash who is the General Secretary of the RMT I will be taking this up with him direct but will also be in listening mode.
Yours sincerely,
Jeremy Quin

 

[swt_passenger]

According to the version of this story in the Guardian:

Cash said: “Directly Operated Railways, who sorted out the mess on the east coast, are lined up and ready to go and they should be given the green light to take over and start running these routes under public control, in the public interest.”

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...-ahead-cancel-350-trains-day-claims-rmt-union

Doesn't he know that DOR has been shut down by DfT?

 

[quantinghome]

Do you KNOW D.O.R. has been shut down by the DfT? I'd be very surprised if it had, given there needs to be an "operator of last resort" should a franchisee hand back the keys.

 

[Sadsmileyface]

I have no particular knowledge in this area, but surely the 1st question of strike action should be: can we win? Backing a lost cause will invariably weaken a union's power in the long run, as seen in the 80s Miners and Print workers strikes. In this case, DOO has been used on national rail for over 30 years (longer on the underground) and is in extensive use all over country. The horse has bolted and Canute has got his feet wet.



I would understand the RMT strategy if it was effectively a rearguard action aimed to delay the ongoing roll-out of DOO for as long as possible. However, if at all possible you've got to choose your field of battle. Where can you put up a strong fight; and where is a holding action more appropriate? Southern seems to me to be ill-chosen ground, given the extensive use of DOO in the area already. If all the effort is invested here, then any failure will hasten the roll-out over the whole network.

Nobody ever claimed that the RMT knows what it's doing. It's not as if it has its pick of the talent pool.

 

[D1009]

According to the version of this story in the Guardian:

Cash said: “Directly Operated Railways, who sorted out the mess on the east coast, are lined up and ready to go and they should be given the green light to take over and start running these routes under public control, in the public interest.”

Doesn't he know that DOR has been shut down by DfT?

If there was a DOR to take over the franchise, it's very unlikely their approach would be any different to that of GTR given the DfT are behind the whole thing anyway.

 

[fabs]

Unfortunately I can tell you for an absolute fact that if DOR are reformed they'd struggle to get the guys and girls who actually ran the business. They're all doing other things now, mainly in the private sector.

 

[Carlisle]

Nobody ever claimed that the RMT knows what it's doing. It's not as if it has its pick of the talent pool.

Assuming it has reasonable funds , what's to stop it purchasing the talent it requires just like any other company/organisation would ?

 

[Morgsie]

What is the DfT doing about this?

 

[bnm]

Unfortunately I can tell you for an absolute fact that if DOR are reformed they'd struggle to get the guys and girls who actually ran the business. They're all doing other things now, mainly in the private sector.

And they were hired in from the private sector in the first place. DOR will have no trouble attracting a top team. Karen Boswell went from First Capital Connect to DOR's East Coast as Managing Director, then back to the private sector at Hitachi Rail Europe.

DOR's Chief Executive during the tenure of East Coast was Elaine Holt. She also came from private sector rail business and went on to another.

Whilst DOR is currently dormant, it is ready to go at short notice as required by Section 30 of the Railways Act 1993.

Should it happen that Govia walk away from GTR, there will be a near seamless transition, as there was with South Eastern Trains and East Coast. The DfT will have no shortage of applicants for MD and Chief Exec.

 

[ComUtoR]

What is the DfT doing about this?

One of the performance targets was increased to allow for more cancellations.

 

[Shimbleshanks]

The BBC report also states:

The BBC understands the Clapham Junction to Milton Keynes and Tonbridge to Redhill services will be completely removed...

If correct, would that mean bustitution for the Tonbridge-Redhill line?

 

[infobleep]

The BBC report also states:

The BBC understands the Clapham Junction to Milton Keynes and Tonbridge to Redhill services will be completely removed...

If correct, would that mean bustitution for the Tonbridge-Redhill line?

That is being discussed here:
http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=129571

We should know more tomorrow. Fascinating.

Not sure what's more fascinating, the GTR dispute or the EU referendum saga. The former looks like going the way I don't want it to and the latter already has, unless there are further twists that favour people who wished to remain!

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

 

[HowardGWR]

Article in Guardian on the situation is somewhat naive.
"Good industrial relations are a prerequisite of better services and Southern, passenger groups, unions and the DfT need to work together to resolve current disputes"

Well, who'd have thought up that one? The article goes on similarly pathetically.

 

[swt_passenger]

Do you KNOW D.O.R. has been shut down by the DfT? I'd be very surprised if it had, given there needs to be an "operator of last resort" should a franchisee hand back the keys.

Do you know it hasn't? Their web address is a dead link, but I'm only going by previous discussions suggesting it was no longer active.

 

[HH]

Do you know it hasn't? Their web address is a dead link, but I'm only going by previous discussions suggesting it was no longer active.

DOR doesn't sit around doing nothing when there's nothing to do. That would be a waste of public money. When it might be needed then DfT gets a team together and work is done on making plans to take over a franchise if it turns out to be necessary. Most of the time they are stood down again after a few weeks.

 

[quantinghome]

DOR doesn't sit around doing nothing when there's nothing to do. That would be a waste of public money. When it might be needed then DfT gets a team together and work is done on making plans to take over a franchise if it turns out to be necessary. Most of the time they are stood down again after a few weeks.

Exactly. DOR is now in 'stand by' mode, as it was before it took over the east coast franchise. It's a far smaller team, and I believe it sits inside the DfT rather than being an independent organisation. But it's still there. Waiting, like King Arthur, to rise once again and save the railways. Or something...

 

[infobleep]

Exactly. DOR is now in 'stand by' mode, as it was before it took over the east coast franchise. It's a far smaller team, and I believe it sits inside the DfT rather than being an independent organisation. But it's still there. Waiting, like King Arthur, to rise once again and save the railways. Or something...

I wonder what the team does in stand by mode on a general day to day basis? I'm not saying you don't need such a team, just curious.

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

 

[Fincra5]

I have no particular knowledge in this area, but surely the 1st question of strike action should be: can we win? Backing a lost cause will invariably weaken a union's power in the long run, as seen in the 80s Miners and Print workers strikes. In this case, DOO has been used on national rail for over 30 years (longer on the underground) and is in extensive use all over country. The horse has bolted and Canute has got his feet wet.

So bored of seeing this "Oh its been in the 30 years"...

Can't argue with that but 30 years ago there wasn't the same mass volume of passengers travelling (which is only growing) and the same volume of service with a huge pressure on timings!

 

[HH]

RMT have been using the same arguments for 30 years though...

 

[Mojo]

BBC's Tom Edwards reports that mutual shift changeovers and leisure travel passes are to be reinstated for those employees who had them withdrawn.

 

[XC90]

So bored of seeing this "Oh its been in the 30 years"...

Can't argue with that but 30 years ago there wasn't the same mass volume of passengers travelling (which is only growing) and the same volume of service with a huge pressure on timings!

Well, it was safe yesterday and last week and there was the same mass of passengers as there is today.

 

[tsr]

BBC's Tom Edwards reports that mutual shift changeovers and leisure travel passes are to be reinstated for those employees who had them withdrawn.

Mutual changeovers have been back on the cards for a couple of weeks now, and travel passes / car park passes have been back for about a week. Apparently this matter is considered concluded by GTR. Presumably this means they are not going to hurry to try it again, at least for the same grades.

 

[Fincra5]

Well, it was safe yesterday and last week and there was the same mass of passengers as there is today.

Personally I believe it is an accident waiting to happen...

 

[74A]

k. Apparently this matter is considered concluded by GTR. .

So I guess the changes will happen at the end of July.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

So bored of seeing this "Oh its been in the 30 years"...

Can't argue with that but 30 years ago there wasn't the same mass volume of passengers travelling (which is only growing) and the same volume of service with a huge pressure on timings!

The peak may last longer these days and they are more busy trains but individual trains will be just as busy 30 years ago as they are today.

 

[FordFocus]

Mutual changeovers have been back on the cards for a couple of weeks now, and travel passes / car park passes have been back for about a week. Apparently this matter is considered concluded by GTR. Presumably this means they are not going to hurry to try it again, at least for the same grades.

This is why certain people of GTR need to go. They used this as a weapon to bully staff into signing this OBS contract which spectacularly failed and made their performance and basic service implode.

It's taken them how long to realise that having staff been able to travel to work on a work pass or park at their place of work means they have staff in to operate the service. Been able to swap shifts to allow for better work/life balance and in particular allows for childcare issues to be sorted. Virtually in any place of work if you can't guarantee your childcare you either take a day off paid or unpaid. Stopping this was of no benefit to the company at all, they didn't save any money.

Saw Crowther and Horton sit in front of the commons committee today. Horton said that all conductors would have an OBS role. When an MP asked was this guaranteed with the DfT after the GTR contract term was up he couldn't comment. This is pretty much what I've been saying along with others for months now. These proposals are DOO with an occasional second person onboard whether it be a OBS, RPI or catering staff. There is zero guarantee that the role will remain after the GTR term is up. As we saw with the Gatwick Express years ago the OBS equivalent grade disappeared when that became DOO with the previous Alstom fleet.

Didn't catch the RMT bit beforehand. One other thing I noted was Horton didn't seem overly pleased that an MP was pushing for financial figures. Horton said that GTR haven't made a profit yet and were forecasting another loss this financial year. Go Ahead shares have dropped since this morning by nearly 4%. How long until the North East HQ pull the plug on been the DfT whipping boys for a bit of union bashing?

 

[DarloRich]

I wonder what the team does in stand by mode on a general day to day basis? I'm not saying you don't need such a team, just curious.

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

nothing. I would assume there is not a standing body of people just waiting. I guess people will be pulled into the team as required - it will just sit there as an empty corporate entity waiting to be used.

 

[tsr]

So I guess the changes will happen at the end of July.

I should clarify that I mean the issue of the parking permits, car park passes, changeovers etc. being withdrawn on a widespread basis.

 

[infobleep]

So I guess the changes will happen at the end of July.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


The peak may last longer these days and they are more busy trains but individual trains will be just as busy 30 years ago as they are today.

So did the less trains in the past have 12 carriages each?

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

 

[HH]

So did the less trains in the past have 12 carriages each?

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

There are more 12-cars now, but there have been 12-car DOO trains since BR days.

 

[BRblue]

So I guess the changes will happen at the end of July.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


The peak may last longer these days and they are more busy trains but individual trains will be just as busy 30 years ago as they are today.

But unfortunately the attitude of members of the public has changed...
The pushing, shoving and the general I don't give a toss as long as I get on this train attitude are the norm now, and that is when incidents will happen. It's a sad indictment of todays society I'm afraid... and lets not forget how much H&S regulations have changed since then too.
Comparing 30yrs ago to now really is like comparing chalk and cheese.