Merseyrail new rolling stock

[First class]

A train capable of going beyond the DC network would be extremely good for Merseyrail, particularly as they are looking to expand to diesel lines, i.e. Bootle Branch, (part of the old Canada Dock branch), Ellesmere Port - Helsby and North Mersey branch...
Isn't there a law now that says 3rd rail can no longer be installed?

 

[Edvid]

New third-rail is permitted provided that it is an extension of a third-rail network and not 'stand-alone' for want of a better phrase.

 

[First class]

Hmm, I think that some of the planned routes may just about be 'extension's, but only just about...

I would have thought it was cheaper and easier than OHE, and anybody that did make their way onto the track to trespass deserves what they get...

 

[alex57601]

A train capable of going beyond the DC network would be extremely good for Merseyrail, particularly as they are looking to expand to diesel lines, i.e. Bootle Branch, (part of the old Canada Dock branch), Ellesmere Port - Helsby and North Mersey branch...

Yes it would be a cheaper alternative to do that than paying for electrification (even though the costs of developing an electro-diesel unit would not be cheap), and the design could also be used on the Southern for the routes they operate the 171s on.

 

[laseandre]

When I said stuff, earlier, about refurbishment, I thought it was the T&W Metro you were talking about (RAIL 596?).

 

[First class]

Can anyone confirm whether 444/450 units would be cleared for Liverpool loop?

 

[Ruddocp]

The 450s at least are rather heavier than the 507/8s and given the way they chew up the track in the loop I don't think the 450s would be any use to merseyrail. I agree that TOC specific units are what is needed.

 

[1D53]

I imagine the Desiro's would be far too wide for the tunnels too!

 

[332 > 444]

376/378s should be the call of the day to replace exsisting stock, just not with the 378 seating.

 

[me123]

Perhaps a subclass of the 378, with 2+2 and/or 3+2 Seating would be suitable for both Merseyrail and FCC: The 313s are getting on a bit, you know and will need replacing in the not-too-distant future.

 

[First class]

Class 376/378 would definitely not be cleared for Merseyrail due to the lack of gangway doors.

Merseyrail are currently running a Saturday service for the foreseeable future due to an extreme shortage of rolling stock. Most formations are only 3-car, not 6.

They need something now!

 

[class 313]

Class 376/378 would definitely not be cleared for Merseyrail due to the lack of gangway doors.

Yes they do.

They have as much as a gangway door as a 508/7 do.

 

[me123]

Best option for Merseyrail that I can see is getting the 313s from London Overground once they're out or service. Even then, it's about a year before some will be available...

 

[First class]

Yes they do.

They have as much as a gangway door as a 508/7 do.

A gangway door at the cabs- not between carriages. This is due to the tunnels being narrow meaning in the event of an emergency, passengers would have to leave via the front/rear cab door, not the carriage/cab side doors.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c1/Unit_376029_at_Slade_Green.JPG/800px-Unit_376029_at_Slade_Green.JPG
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/1/10/Ldn_Ovrgrd_Train.jpg

Those units don't have them.

The 507 does:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c0/507001_Hunts_Cross.jpg

 

[class 313]

378, do have the doors at the front.

http://upmain.fotopic.net/p53614334.html
http://upmain.fotopic.net/p53614372.html

 

[First class]

Ah my bad- didnt look like they did in other pic.

thanks for that. they look quite smart...

 

[class 313]

Ah my bad- didnt look like they did in other pic.

thanks for that. they look quite smart...

I had forgot 376s didn't have the door, sorry about that. But yeah they do look smart.

 

[Juniper Driver]

I imagine the Desiro's would be far too wide for the tunnels too!

Don't know that is true as 507/508s are similar to 455s and 315s (and they work in desiro territory)but I may be wrong.Weren't 507s or was it 508s at Waterloo for a short time?

455s are the only units that are permitted, yet these haven't got much longer in them either.

Probably about another ten years?

 

[class 313]

455s are the only units that are permitted, yet these haven't got much longer in them either.

Probably about another ten years?

Lets hope not, bloody rancid things.

 

[Ruddocp]

Class 376/378 would definitely not be cleared for Merseyrail due to the lack of gangway doors.

Merseyrail are currently running a Saturday service for the foreseeable future due to an extreme shortage of rolling stock. Most formations are only 3-car, not 6.

They need something now!

There's only a rolling stock problem because the network rail MPV thats currently running around the network is doing something to the track, and the shoe gear on the units keep failing because of it. Its a temporary problem. If more capacity is needed in the near future the southeastern 508s are a good solution, they wont be running around there much longer! Although once 2008 along with liverpools capital of culture status ends I can't help but wonder if the current passenger levels will be sustained...

 

[Juniper Driver]

Lets hope not, bloody rancid things.

Oi I drive them.They are my bread and butter.

 

[class 313]

Oi I drive them.They are my bread and butter.

The seats always give me back pain

 

[First class]

even before this capital of culture thing, Merseyrail usage has been growing remarkably quickly.

capital of culture hasn't actually brought any additional passengers really, the major new shopping complex, Liverpool ONE has, and that is where most passengers head to these days, hence James Street being so busy all day long. It's also busy going towards Chester, because most people get to Wales that way rather than via Crewe.

passenger numbers will only ever increase on operations like Merseyrail, and as the network will expand, i.e. to Wrexham via Bidston, usage will always increase. The thing putting most people of Merseyrail is the lack of capacity, and therefore the rolling stock. The underground stations are also in dire need of refurbishment, but due to restrictions, only Network Rail can do it, and obviously at a high cost.

Merseyrail have the cheapest fares, free car parking, a frequent and reliable service, and is generally one of the best TOCs around. The rolling stock is their only downfall at the moment.

I'm also not convinced the MPV is the problem, it's been here before. If it is, surely that says something about the state of the infrastructure if it can't cope with something other than 507/508 units going over it...

 

[Juniper Driver]

The seats always give me back pain

Funny you say that.Since they refurbished them (sic) the drivers cab seats give some drivers problems although I seem to have no problem.

Seats are better now in passenger areas as the yobs dont throw them out of the window anymore.

 

[class 313]

Funny you say that.Since they refurbished them (sic) the drivers cab seats give some drivers problems although I seem to have no problem.

Seats are better now in passenger areas as the yobs dont throw them out of the window anymore.

I preferred the lower seats to be honest, but that's me.

 

[Juniper Driver]

Well yes they were ok if the seats were there.

 

[class 313]

Well yes they were ok if the seats were there.

Good point

 

[507 001]

as far as i know (from a reliable source) no 313's 455's 319's etc will be coming up to liverpool, 319's & 455's are too long, 313's are older than the 507's which are currently the oldest merseyrail unit. the first one was introduced in 1978 after extensive testing with 2 class 313's.

replying to an earlier post about spare platforms, rock ferries 2 spare platforms are pointing the wrong way to be of any use for extra services and are in use most of the time for stabling of units.

I also highly doubt the 4 tph service on the chester line, where are they going to go on the loop? we already have 1 train every 5 minutes on that section.

toilets cant be used in the tunnels.

AFAIK merseyrail will be keeping the 507/8's till 2013/14 when they will begin to gradually phase them out with a completely new TOC specific design, because, there has been huge problems in the past with the PEP stock(wheel squeal and wear rates, struggling on extreme gradients) because the tunnels are on the limit of what the units can handle, that was the only reason they were used, the old 502's and 503's needed replacing and BR didnt want to spend too much money designing something that would work flawlessly.

at the moment the most that might happen is the return of a few (not all) of the 508's that are down south. however these would need extensive refurbishment work and 508112 i think it is is completely goosed as its been used for spares.
we are nearly at full capacity (depot wise) anyway.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I also think more use should be made of the Northern-Wirral line link by James Street, currently only used for ECS movements... Ormskirk/Kirkby/Hunts X to Wirral...

its not signalled for passenger services. plus theres a 5 mph limit through there. plus its pointing in the wrong direction, originally the current northern line platforms at L central were the wirral line platforms, the link was the original tunnel into it. therefore the only services that would be able to go into it without reversing would be hunts cross services, so what would be the point? also the only drivers that can drive the hunts cross section are based at southport, therefore the whole of the wirral line drivers and guards would need training, too expensive unfortunately.

merseyrail would never get 444's- wrong type of doors for fast passenger loading on loop and link sections.
450's- too big!

however, the new trains will more than likely be dual voltage for use on the newly electrified bidston-wrexham and possibly a newly electrified city line as far as wigan.
there is also talk of electrifying the preston section of the ormskirk line, and the reinstatement of the burscough curves to allow the skelmersdale branch to be reinstated too.

hope this helps answer some of your questions!

 

[John_158]

I must say i havn't read the whole of this thread but do use the Merseyrail Southport Line seven days a week and over the past 12 months or so the reliabilty of the 507/8s has been dramatic at least one per day failing.

Sloppy maintince is one of the resons i belive as they arn't really trains anymore they are just computers and need techincans not fitters to fix them.

What ever new rolling stock is ordered it needs to be formed of six carriges as standard but i don not think that theese units will last another five years as the condition is appaling.

Inside they are falling apart too broken seats dispalys not working not being cleaned properley PIDs never work properley.

Frankly the refurbishment has not done them any justioce what so ever as they where ebetter before they were refurbished and to me ARRIVA seemed to maintain them better.

"BRING BACK Arriva Trains Merseyside"

 

[507 001]

I must say i havn't read the whole of this thread but do use the Merseyrail Southport Line seven days a week and over the past 12 months or so the reliabilty of the 507/8s has been dramatic at least one per day failing.

Sloppy maintince is one of the resons i belive as they arn't really trains anymore they are just computers and need techincans not fitters to fix them.

What ever new rolling stock is ordered it needs to be formed of six carriges as standard but i don not think that theese units will last another five years as the condition is appaling.

Inside they are falling apart too broken seats dispalys not working not being cleaned properley PIDs never work properley.

Frankly the refurbishment has not done them any justioce what so ever as they where ebetter before they were refurbished and to me ARRIVA seemed to maintain them better.

"BRING BACK Arriva Trains Merseyside"

NEVER EVER say that again lol, ARRIVA trains merseyside where the worst thing ever to happen to the network imo.

I have been frewuently using merseyrail for the last 16 years and have only had a failure twice.

I also find thm incredibly clean, i mean compare them to a northern class 150 and you will appreciate them more.
the PID's do break sometimes I admit but they work most of the time.

but I do admit that reliability seems to be falling in the last couple of months but lets not forget that they are at least 28 years old, the refurbishment didnt actually touch anything below solebar level so when you consider it they are in quite good condition really.

also they seem to be struggling because they need to have more units available for 6 car sets and the like so Merseyrail cant take units out of service for maintenance EG 507033 is running round with 2 airleaks in one DMS because of a lack of spare units.