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Withdrawn/old rail services that could be useful today

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cm39275

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I would like to see cross-country services back to Gatwick airport rather than Brighton, as they provided conectinons from Cherwell valley/ north Thames valley that didn't involve changing on already busy 3 coach trains at Reading bound for Gatwick.
Another service which should be reinstated would be the Bicester to Bristol service as it would cater for most of the tourists heading from Oxford towards Bath and Bristol as the connections at Didcot are regularly missed.
 
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smudga331

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You're not related to southern442 by any chance? Best you keep wondering ;)

Haha, like i say, it was purely a hypothetical wonder. It would make things interesting, but I do appreciate that rail companies are there to run a service, not keep me amused. :lol:
 

tbtc

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Wolverhampton to Walsall.

Pleeaase!

Getting to Walsall from the North is such a pain.

Many of the suggestions on here seem either typically contrary (why would you want to miss out the busiest intermediate station on a route - e.g. XC omitting Birmingham?) or Zero Sum Games (i.e. Charing Cross must be at 100% capacity, so any "Southern" service there would come at the expense of a "South Eastern" service), but Wolverhampton to Walsall ought to be a busy service if frequent enough.

The problem it'll have will be that you'd need to go to at least three or four services per hour to make it worthwhile, given the short distance and bus frequency.

I wonder if the Chase electrification will mean any longer distance services from Walsall to the "north" (i.e. New Street - Walsall - Rugely - Stafford...)?

Tradition requires that I suggest a Liverpool - Marches - Bristol service on these kind of threads (158s running via Shrewsbury/ Hereford/ Abergavenny, giving both Liverpool and Bristol links to the kind of places that they used to have before the "Everything must go to Cardiff" days. There's hopefully enough capacity on the Marches line (3tp2h in passenger terms) to allow this service in addition to existing services.

Plenty of other possible suggestions for services, but these would have to come at the expense of something else.

It'd help some longer distance connections if the SN service from Milton Keynes ran beyond Croydon to Gatwick or even Brighton, but what service do you remove from the BML to make way for it?

You could give Liverpool (or the WCML through Preston/ Carlisle) through services beyond Birmingham to the Thames Valley/ Bristol etc like they used to have in BR days (and the early days of VTXC) but would you remove the direct services from Manchester or Yorkshire to the Thames Valley/ Bristol to accommodate them? Give Ipswich back some through services to Nottingham/ Manchester, but that'd mean fewer Norwich services to those exotic destinations.

You'll find that even if your proposal benefits a hundred people and only inconveniences fifty, those fifty will be regular passengers who can be easily organised to complain (compared to a hundred people who aren't so likely to complain to their MPs about something not yet happening).

There's also the stock/pathing problems. Through services from Liverpool Street to Lowestoft/ Great Yarmouth would be useful for some, but three coach 170s are a waste of time west of Ipswich. North Wales to Birmingham via Crewe/ Stafford would be much faster than via Wrexham/ Shrewsbury, but do you have spare WCML paths for 75mph or 90mph stock (since Wales & Borders couldn't guarantee 100mph trains every time on such services)?
 

kevconnor

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Once the north west electrification is complete it would be good to see some peak time ICWC services via Bolton. these could then better connect in with services into Lancashire for better connections to the capital.
 

southern442

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I would like to see cross-country services back to Gatwick airport rather than Brighton, as they provided conectinons from Cherwell valley/ north Thames valley that didn't involve changing on already busy 3 coach trains at Reading bound for Gatwick.
Another service which should be reinstated would be the Bicester to Bristol service as it would cater for most of the tourists heading from Oxford towards Bath and Bristol as the connections at Didcot are regularly missed.

That's an interesting point about Gatwick services. I also wonder sometimes (which as a few have mentioned above I need to be careful about) if the Southern WLL trains should be extended back to Gatwick. The capacity isn't there, not unless you sacrifice a Thameslink train or something, but it could be worth giving the WCML and the Earl's Court/Olympia exhibition centres a link to the airport.
 

PeterC

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Another service which should be reinstated would be the Bicester to Bristol service as it would cater for most of the tourists heading from Oxford towards Bath and Bristol as the connections at Didcot are regularly missed.
I have often wondered if there is a viable traffic flow for such a service.
 

yorksrob

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Many of the suggestions on here seem either typically contrary (why would you want to miss out the busiest intermediate station on a route - e.g. XC omitting Birmingham?)

On the contrary, I never said that XC services should omit Birmingham. My point was that as Birmingham is already pretty well served by XC services, there would be no need for my hypothetical new service to call there as well. It could concentrate on providing connectivity for the East Midlands centres which seem to be lacking on this axis.
 

southern442

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On the contrary, I never said that XC services should omit Birmingham. My point was that as Birmingham is already pretty well served by XC services, there would be no need for my hypothetical new service to call there as well. It could concentrate on providing connectivity for the East Midlands centres which seem to be lacking on this axis.

Not going to Birmingham might reduce potential overcrowding issues - look at the number of people on the GatEx Brighton services compared to the Southern and Thameslink ones that stop at East Croydon (although to be fair the Southern Brighton trains are mainly 4-coaches which is just asking for trouble)
 

yorksrob

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Not going to Birmingham might reduce potential overcrowding issues - look at the number of people on the GatEx Brighton services compared to the Southern and Thameslink ones that stop at East Croydon (although to be fair the Southern Brighton trains are mainly 4-coaches which is just asking for trouble)

I wonder whether some longer distance XC passengers might choose such a service over the Birmingham route to avoid such overcrowding.
 

Senex

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You'll find that even if your proposal benefits a hundred people and only inconveniences fifty, those fifty will be regular passengers who can be easily organised to complain (compared to a hundred people who aren't so likely to complain to their MPs about something not yet happening).
And what if those hundred are all leisure pasengers travelling at massively discounted fares whilst the fifty are business passengers paying full fare (and First if available)?
 

JohnR

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What would the point be of reinstating these? If anything you could move the sleepers from the WCML to the ECML but this wouldn't achieve any significant benefits. There probably isn't enough demand for sleepers on both of the London-Scotland mainlines.

Well, thats what happened in the 80s - the sleepers out of KX wernt stopped, they were just transferred to Euston. It shouldnt be difficult to transfer say the Aberdeen/Fort William sleeper to KX. Will need to do something when Euston is being rebuilt in any case.

I understand when the sleepers were diverted to KX during the Lamington disruption, CS said there were no problems (after initial teething probs).
 

edwin_m

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I wonder whether some longer distance XC passengers might choose such a service over the Birmingham route to avoid such overcrowding.

For a journey such as Nottingham or Leicester to Oxford, the train journey via Birmingham forces a huge detour whereas the M1 and A43 are a much shorter distance and unless the traffic is bad much shorter time as well.
 

Senex

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For a journey such as Nottingham or Leicester to Oxford, the train journey via Birmingham forces a huge detour whereas the M1 and A43 are a much shorter distance and unless the traffic is bad much shorter time as well.
In 1903 you could get from Leicester to Banbury in 57 minutes. Today it's 50 minutes to New Street before you even add in the change allowance and then the onward trip.
 

JamesRowden

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For a journey such as Nottingham or Leicester to Oxford, the train journey via Birmingham forces a huge detour whereas the M1 and A43 are a much shorter distance and unless the traffic is bad much shorter time as well.

The Route Studies suggest that there may be a Nottingham to Reading via Bedford and Oxford service in the future.
 

70014IronDuke

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Well, almost 'every' withdrawn service 'could' be useful today - i can imagine scores of closed branch lines - Abingdon - Radley (could be continued to Oxford and MK) or even Highworth-Swindon, had they stayed open, would not close today.

Wallingford - Cholsey probably would not make the cut, however.

The above are non-starters today, of course, the tracks having been ripped up. But i'm surprised nobody has mentioned Manchester Victoria - Blackburn - Hellifield - Carlisle - Glasgow. Would be useful to have 4 or 6 trains each way per day for when the wires next come down north of Lancaster.

Come to think of it, when were through Scottish carriages withdrawn via this route - I'd guess the 1930s?
 
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Harbornite

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Well, thats what happened in the 80s - the sleepers out of KX wernt (sic) stopped, they were just transferred to Euston. It shouldnt be difficult to transfer say the Aberdeen/Fort William sleeper to KX. Will need to do something when Euston is being rebuilt in any case.

I understand when the sleepers were diverted to KX during the Lamington disruption, CS said there were no problems (after initial teething probs).

The only reason why you'd move the sleepers to KX would be for diversions due to engineering on the wcml (as mentioned) or to take advantage of the closer proximity to Eurostar services at St Pancras. I just don't see the point of moving the sleepers to KX when there aren't engineering works taking place on the wcml.
 

edwin_m

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KX is limited to a maximum train length of about 11 coaches. The sleepers load to 16 if I recall correctly, which can be handled in the longest platforms at Euston. So working from KX would involve either an extra portion or a reduction in passenger space.
 

southern442

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Was the Euston to Manchester Airport service ever well-used? I'm assuming they were stopped because 4-car 322's running on long distance diagrams wasted capacity.
 

rishton82

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I think a Blackburn to Hellifield service would be useful if there was an improved service on the Leeds to Carlise and Leeds to Morecambe line if there are good connections both north and south
 

ChiefPlanner

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Was the Euston to Manchester Airport service ever well-used? I'm assuming they were stopped because 4-car 322's running on long distance diagrams wasted capacity.

When they had a £!0 offer , - yes - but basically carried fresh air - slow journey times and an odd stopping pattern. Took FNW a long time to get OPRAF to bin them - a noble , but fruitless experiment.
 

southern442

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When they had a £!0 offer , - yes - but basically carried fresh air - slow journey times and an odd stopping pattern. Took FNW a long time to get OPRAF to bin them - a noble , but fruitless experiment.

Out of interest, what were the stops?
 

ChiefPlanner

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Out of interest, what were the stops?

Long time ago now - they were hugely restricted by the Moderation of Competition clause in Virgins Access agreement - so they unable to pick up / set down at obvious stations.

Think they did something like Man Air / Wilmslow / Sandbach / Tamworth and Watford Junction.

Very poor paths and lots of stand time / pathing time in the schedules.
 

DarloRich

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Is this just another thread where we get a list of an individual posters favoured services that might help them ;)

To my mind E-W rail opens up lots of new journey possibilities which will have more space to run in once HS2 is up and running. Selfishly a better service between Bedford/Blethcley/MK/Oxford & London look very appealing!
 

yorksrob

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Given the reported overcrowding on HS1, how about a fast service from Charing Cross to the Kent Coast calling at Tonbridge only. Perhaps they could also insert a stop at New Cross to provide an interchange for trendy east London !

Perhaps it could combine at Tonbridge with an express from Hastings.
 

infobleep

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Is XC to Brighton a forum joke, like TPE using 442s?

I did use it twice but by the second time (cannot recall the first) it involved a deeply interesting (just as well) but slow route - so slow the train crew felt obliged to apologise - through Acton Wells.

Can I lament the loss of XC up the WCML from wherever on the South Coast?
When I travelled on it, I seem to remember them saying it was due to it being a neighbourhood area but that was over 16 years ago so a distant memory now.

As for routes that might be useful. What about Clapham Junction to Elephant and Castle? I think it ran from Waterloo but I can't remember where it ended.

I'm not saying there is the infrastructure or spare capacity to run it of course.

Then there was the Reading to Charring Cross services via Guildford. Not certain if that would be useful now. Perhaps as a connection to East Croydon it might be. Again infrastructure probably wouldn't allow

Reguar all day train services from Brighton to London via Redhill would be useful but infrastructure again.

How about a direct Denton to Reddish South service? Currently takes over a week to get between them and you can't even use one single ticket for the whole journey. <D

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JamesRowden

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Given the reported overcrowding on HS1, how about a fast service from Charing Cross to the Kent Coast calling at Tonbridge only. Perhaps they could also insert a stop at New Cross to provide an interchange for trendy east London !

Perhaps it could combine at Tonbridge with an express from Hastings.

More high speed stock would seem the more obvious solution to overcrowding on HS1.

If you want a fast service between Tonbridge and Ashford, taking the old route to London via Redhill (by extending the Southern service to the Kent Coast) would seem to provide more benefits due to the non-London journey advantages (substantially quicker journeys between East Kent and Redhill). But I think that there might not be the paths through Tonbridge during the peak for such a service to operate.
 

infobleep

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Yup, any passenger using XC from Brighton to get to the Midlands would find it to be slower and much less frequent and reliable than a cross-London transfer or going via Kensington Olympia; not to mention the pathing and capacity restraints on the Brighton main line. Any plans to reinstate XC services down in Kent and Sussex are nostalgia dreams, nothing more.

When VTWC have advances for £8.90 between Brighton and Birmingham... well... XC would never be able to compete..

But speaking of Brighton, how about Brighton to Basingstoke or Brighton to Reading? I feel those could be useful.

Guildford still gets an XC train and then their is engineering works, far more. When there is far more one can get cheap advances to places like Oxford. When there isn't, one can't.

So I suspect is XC ran more services to Brighton, it would compete with VTWC. However capacity and infrastructure contains stop such a thing happening.

How about the old services from the London Underground that joined the Great Western Railway? Would they be useful.

I suspect the answer to that is Crossrail, which is being built.

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