Withdrawn/old rail services that could be useful today

[southern442]

Don't know whether to put this thread here or in the nostalgia bit, but moderators can sort that out for me.

Looking at a few old route diagrams and the like, I can see some old rail services that don't run anymore that would be quite useful today. I know that because the railways are so full capacity-wise it is unlikely we will see the return of these services, but with a very crowded network particularly in the London area it would be interesting to see how many people would use them.

First, there is the London-Felixstowe and Lowestoft services. I'm sure most of us remember these, would they be heavily used today? It would give the GEML intercity network more of a variety which could be good for passengers.

Also, would the longer-distance mainline services via Sutton still be appreciated? It seems to be a fairly busy line and sections of it, like Dorking to Horsham, need some love that could be brought with extra fast services.

I also saw what appeared to be a fast service between Charing Cross and Gillingham, which was non-stop between London Bridge and Gravesend. I think that if there was the capacity for this then it could be well-received by passengers.

Does anyone here know of any interesting services that don't run anymore, that might be useful to the public if they ran today? Preferably on open lines because there are plenty of discussions about closed lines that could reopen, and that's not really my main focus here.

 

[The Planner]

Could the Mods please ban the first person who will inevitably suggest XC to Brighton....

 

[southern442]

Could the Mods please ban the first person who will inevitably suggest XC to Brighton....

I was just thinking of that

I'm after slightly more obscure services that people could have a use for nowadays. As much as it would be nice to have XC to Brighton, the BML is coping just fine without it

 

[a_c_skinner]

Is XC to Brighton a forum joke, like TPE using 442s?

I did use it twice but by the second time (cannot recall the first) it involved a deeply interesting (just as well) but slow route - so slow the train crew felt obliged to apologise - through Acton Wells.

Can I lament the loss of XC up the WCML from wherever on the South Coast?

 

[43074]

First, there is the London-Felixstowe and Lowestoft services. I'm sure most of us remember these, would they be heavily used today? It would give the GEML intercity network more of a variety which could be good for passengers.

They weren't withdrawn due to low usage - demand for London services is certainly there judging by the numbers changing to the Mainline services at Ipswich - more to the point it was ludicrous to have a 3 car 170 running on the very busy GEML when they could be replaced by, say, an 8 car 321 offering much more capacity on the busier Colchester - London section. It also offers more potential for things to go wrong because any late running services coming from the mainline would impact on trains heading to the mainline because of the single line sections, making it much harder to recover the service in the event of it going wrong.

 

[southern442]

They weren't withdrawn due to low usage - demand for London services is certainly there judging by the numbers changing to the Mainline services at Ipswich - more to the point it was ludicrous to have a 3 car 170 running on the very busy GEML when they could be replaced by, say, an 8 car 321 offering much more capacity on the busier Colchester - London section. It also offers more potential for things to go wrong because any late running services coming from the mainline would impact on trains heading to the mainline because of the single line sections, making it much harder to recover the service in the event of it going wrong.

That's what I was thinking. If they had longer DMU's (say, 4-car units) and ran them together (8-car to Westerfield then split) that might have helped keep them on the line.

 

[yorksrob]

I've often thought that some NE/SW cross country services running via the East Midlands rather than the West might prove useful.

 

[thealexweb]

Any of Bolton's long distance services. Smaller stations like Wigan North Western and Stockport have retained existing and even gained new long distance services. I just feel that it is a shame that most of the country is two changes away for a station with over three million passengers a year. It would not take much to balance out the deficit. TPE's hourly Scotland service reverts to Bolton as planned, Northern's enhanced Cumbria service remains through Bolton and one London to Manchester per hour is extended to Blackpool North via Bolton.

 

[Senex]

I've often thought that some NE/SW cross country services running via the East Midlands rather than the West might prove useful.

I've often thought the same, but the question is which route would be used.
I presume the idea would be to serve Nottingham and Leicester, but to run from Sheffield to Nottingham, reverse, and then on through Leicester to Birmingham is very slow, so there would be a pretty massive time-penalty. There's no north-west curve at Newark, so it's not possible to use the ECML and then the Midland to get a fast route from Doncaster to Nottingham, and the GN line from Newark to Bottesford West Jn, which would have done the job, is one of those unfortunately sacrificed a good few years ago. Having got to Nottingham, you've got a good fast route to Leicester, but after that you're back on to an appallingly slow line in the shape of Leicester to Birmingham (OK so the Wigston to Nuneaton part is potentially very fast, but it's a ghastly route west of Nuneaton).
Or were you thinking of missing Birmingham too and taking a route rather like the old GC cross-country route?

 

[yorksrob]

I've often thought the same, but the question is which route would be used.
I presume the idea would be to serve Nottingham and Leicester, but to run from Sheffield to Nottingham, reverse, and then on through Leicester to Birmingham is very slow, so there would be a pretty massive time-penalty. There's no north-west curve at Newark, so it's not possible to use the ECML and then the Midland to get a fast route from Doncaster to Nottingham, and the GN line from Newark to Bottesford West Jn, which would have done the job, is one of those unfortunately sacrificed a good few years ago. Having got to Nottingham, you've got a good fast route to Leicester, but after that you're back on to an appallingly slow line in the shape of Leicester to Birmingham (OK so the Wigston to Nuneaton part is potentially very fast, but it's a ghastly route west of Nuneaton).
Or were you thinking of missing Birmingham too and taking a route rather like the old GC cross-country route?

My view is that Birmingham is already served by XC services, so this one could miss it out. In the absence of the Great Central, I'm not sure what route it would take though.

 

[Senex]

My view is that Birmingham is already served by XC services, so this one could miss it out. In the absence of the Great Central, I'm not sure what route it would take though.

Then that really is difficult. If the WCML Upgrade hadn't been de-specced, then there would have been the underpass route at Nuneaton which would have allowed through running from Leicester to Coventry, and you could have got out of the south end of Coventry to Leamington, whence Oxford, Didcot West Curve, and Swindon to the West. But that would have needed some significant work at Coventry, almost certainly.

The alternative is one of those nice might-have-beens. If the Midland line from Leicester to Rugby hadn't been closed, then there would have been a very fast route south to Rugby (where additional work would have been needed during the re-building of the station). The real might-have-been bit is south of Rugby. If the railway north from Banbury had been built as planned to Rugby rather than taking a left turn and heading to Leamington ...

Oh, and one other. Build the BR-proposed Whetstone Curve, restore the GC as far as Woodford and then restore the link to Banbury.

But given where we are, I think the only real possibility would be an East Midlands route between Doncaster and Birmingham alongside the present one, using the ECML, a new curve at Newark, and the route via Nuneaton, all upgraded where necessary, of course.

 

[GatwickDepress]

Is XC to Brighton a forum joke, like TPE using 442s?

Yup, any passenger using XC from Brighton to get to the Midlands would find it to be slower and much less frequent and reliable than a cross-London transfer or going via Kensington Olympia; not to mention the pathing and capacity restraints on the Brighton main line. Any plans to reinstate XC services down in Kent and Sussex are nostalgia dreams, nothing more.

When VTWC have advances for £8.90 between Brighton and Birmingham... well... XC would never be able to compete..

But speaking of Brighton, how about Brighton to Basingstoke or Brighton to Reading? I feel those could be useful.

 

[Gareth Marston]

I've often thought that some NE/SW cross country services running via the East Midlands rather than the West might prove useful.

Concentrating XC services via Birmingham was a response to another age of perceived declining ridership. nW to SW via Marches needs returning.

 

[edwin_m]

For the southern half of "XC via the East Midlands" I'd suggest Nottingham to Oxford via Leicester, Bedford and East West Rail. This could be extended at the north end to Sheffield or Lincoln and in the south to Reading, Bristol or Southampton via Salisbury.

 

[Harbornite]

Concentrating XC services via Birmingham was a response to another age of perceived declining ridership. nW to SW via Marches needs returning.

I wonder if the XC franchisee would be willing to do that and lose the revenue from Birmingham-bound travellers.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I wonder how well used a direct Aberystwyth- London service would be, those having been withdrawn in 1992. One of the issues is finding suitable rolling stock, as the Arriva Trains Wales 158's are limited to 90mph and unsuitable for such a long-distance trip, and Virgin's Super voyagers don't have ECTS equipment.

Concentrating XC services via Birmingham was a response to another age of perceived declining ridership. nW to SW via Marches needs returning.

I wonder if the XC franchisee would be willing to do that and lose the revenue from Birmingham-bound travellers.

 

[yorksrob]

Then that really is difficult. If the WCML Upgrade hadn't been de-specced, then there would have been the underpass route at Nuneaton which would have allowed through running from Leicester to Coventry, and you could have got out of the south end of Coventry to Leamington, whence Oxford, Didcot West Curve, and Swindon to the West. But that would have needed some significant work at Coventry, almost certainly.

The alternative is one of those nice might-have-beens. If the Midland line from Leicester to Rugby hadn't been closed, then there would have been a very fast route south to Rugby (where additional work would have been needed during the re-building of the station). The real might-have-been bit is south of Rugby. If the railway north from Banbury had been built as planned to Rugby rather than taking a left turn and heading to Leamington ...

Oh, and one other. Build the BR-proposed Whetstone Curve, restore the GC as far as Woodford and then restore the link to Banbury.

But given where we are, I think the only real possibility would be an East Midlands route between Doncaster and Birmingham alongside the present one, using the ECML, a new curve at Newark, and the route via Nuneaton, all upgraded where necessary, of course.

One option might be to use the East/West route to access Oxford and Reading.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Huddersfield to London services would be useful, in the 1920s there were three different routes but now there are none, though services to Kings Cross are due to return.

 

[southern442]

Another one I was thinking of is Southern to Charing Cross. Whilst the Thameslink Programme would probably prohibit these services from returning, were they heavily used?

 

[DerekC]

But speaking of Brighton, how about Brighton to Basingstoke or Brighton to Reading? I feel those could be useful.

I am sure there was a Brighton to Reading service via Fareham & Basingstoke, not so long ago.

 

[6Gman]

Wolverhampton to Walsall.

Pleeaase!

Getting to Walsall from the North is such a pain.

 

[Mag_seven]

ECML sleepers - they were "temporarily" withdrawn in the late 80's while the ECML was being electrified, but were never reinstated.

 

[Senex]

One option might be to use the East/West route to access Oxford and Reading.

But you'd have to go right down to Bedford before getting on to it, which takes you more over to the east than you really want to go. Getting on to the WCML and then off again at Bletchley would be better, but that would need a new curve at Nuneaton (otherwise the time-penalty of a reversal) and also either restoration of the direct curve a Bletchley or a slow route across to the slows before going up to the flyover. A lot depends on whether you envsage the service through the East Midlands as being an attractively fast one or just something for those who don't like changing trains and don't mind if their journey is somewhat slow. (I'd go for fast.)

 

[306024]

That's what I was thinking. If they had longer DMU's (say, 4-car units) and ran them together (8-car to Westerfield then split) that might have helped keep them on the line.

Splitting and attaching at Westerfield hock: You're not an advisor to one of the bid teams trying to win the East Anglia franchise by any chance? That's the sort of idea they come up with

Let's just say it is impractical for a host of commercial and operating reasons.

 

[Rapidash]

Waterloo services going west of Exeter again would be neat.

 

[southern442]

Splitting and attaching at Westerfield hock: You're not an advisor to one of the bid teams trying to win the East Anglia franchise by any chance? That's the sort of idea they come up with

Let's just say it is impractical for a host of commercial and operating reasons.

I've just realised that Westerfield probably doesn't have an 8-coach platform I don't know the line that well. It would have to be Ipswich then.

 

[Harbornite]

ECML sleepers - they were "temporarily" withdrawn in the late 80's while the ECML was being electrified, but were never reinstated.

What would the point be of reinstating these? If anything you could move the sleepers from the WCML to the ECML but this wouldn't achieve any significant benefits. There probably isn't enough demand for sleepers on both of the London-Scotland mainlines.

 

[smudga331]

That's what I was thinking. If they had longer DMU's (say, 4-car units) and ran them together (8-car to Westerfield then split) that might have helped keep them on the line.

I've always wondered about using 12-car (3 x 4-car DMU) units to Ipswich every 2 hours to then split and do Lowestoft, Cambridge and Peterborough. Merely a pipe dream and would probably cause AGA so many problems if on the return one unit was delayed causing problems for the re-attachment etc. I guess this is the danger of splitting and recouping units. I've seen it cause problems in the past on the BML, splitting at Haywards Heath. A delay on one service means either needing to find an extra driver to abandon the attachment, or delaying twice as many people.

 

[edwin_m]

But you'd have to go right down to Bedford before getting on to it, which takes you more over to the east than you really want to go. Getting on to the WCML and then off again at Bletchley would be better, but that would need a new curve at Nuneaton (otherwise the time-penalty of a reversal) and also either restoration of the direct curve a Bletchley or a slow route across to the slows before going up to the flyover. A lot depends on whether you envsage the service through the East Midlands as being an attractively fast one or just something for those who don't like changing trains and don't mind if their journey is somewhat slow. (I'd go for fast.)

Yes, a straight line from Nottingham to Oxford would go near Leicester and Rugby - so approximating that would need re-opening of a large section of the GC main line and the branch to Banbury. If we're talking re-opening (very much hypothetically of course) then the best option might be Market Harborough to Northampton. This is a shorter length to re-open and brings in both Northampton and MK, neither of which have very good connectivity except along the axis of the WCML.

 

[NSE]

... so my planned calling pattern for XC out of Brighton...

I couldn't resist.

Hmmm, I know I'd like to see Southern back at Charing Cross, but I don't know if it would actually make much difference. Its easy enough to get to the West End from Southern territories. I have a few ideas I'd love to see. But I don't know if they're just pipe dreams for me haha!

 

[306024]

I've always wondered about using 12-car (3 x 4-car DMU) units to Ipswich every 2 hours to then split and do Lowestoft, Cambridge and Peterborough.....

You're not related to southern442 by any chance? Best you keep wondering