Southern DOO: ASLEF members vote 79.1% for revised deal

[SpacePhoenix]

Can Southern Control do remote PA announcements to individual platforms (or even just station-wide)?

 

[Robertj21a]

Well I'm sure South West Trains have been able to source buses between Farnham and Alton at short notice.

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Probably because they also own the bus company - it's all Stagecoach.

 

[tsr]

Can Southern Control do remote PA announcements to individual platforms (or even just station-wide)?

Southern CIS Controllers can do station-wide announcements at East Croydon but I've never heard it done remotely for individual platforms - only East Croydon CIS themselves seem to do that. They can certainly operate the information boards individually for each platform. As for other stations, long-line PA announcements are possible but normally fairly rare. It's much more likely that there will just be a visual message placed on the CIS system.

 

[infobleep]

Probably because they also own the bus company - it's all Stagecoach.

So do Stagecoach have spare buses lying around?

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[Robertj21a]

So do Stagecoach have spare buses lying around?

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I wouldn't have thought so as they're known to be a highly efficient organisation. However, it's a massive company and well known for their fast reactions to any incidents (i.e Forth Bridge sudden closure, train strikes etc etc). For an organisation of their size it must be easier than most to bring in additional resources at short notice even if it means using office staff, mechanics etc.

 

[Chrisgr31]

Well I'm sure South West Trains have been able to source buses between Farnham and Alton at short notice.

On Wednesday South Eastern could only find 7 initially to run on the Hastings line between Tunbridge Wells and Tonbridge. Don't know if they eventually found more.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I wouldn't have thought so as they're known to be a highly efficient organisation. However, it's a massive company and well known for their fast reactions to any incidents (i.e Forth Bridge sudden closure, train strikes etc etc). For an organisation of their size it must be easier than most to bring in additional resources at short notice even if it means using office staff, mechanics etc.

From my discussions with bus drivers of rail replacement services i get the impression that the drivers tend to be the one thing the bus companies have. They in the main appear to be retired drivers, who just get a call asking if they can come in and work. The issue is getting hold of the actual buses for them to drive!

 

[speedy_sticks]

They won't be guards.
Horton stated in RailNews that OBS WON'T have route knowledge and will be expected just to jump on any train going anywhere. Ergo, they cannot be guards.

As current RPIs, ticket examiners and customer service roles don't need PTS, GSM-R or traction knowledge, so you can logically say that these will go too. Though you may get a concession on the traction knowledge so they are able to "control the heating".

An OBS thus degrades from a Competent Person to a Designated Person under the authority of the driver. At best an OBS will then only be able to say to passengers when things go belly-up, "I don't know".

Hopefully they will have the authority to use the wheelchair ramp?

 

[plymothian]

Of course, there will be a large amount of "residual knowkedge" amongst the new OBS who were Guards, so while they are in the role, the vast majority of the time passengers will not notice a difference, and the role will be touted as a success.

It could take some years for the major cracks to appear, by which time the individuals within the industry pushing to get rid of Guards will have their OBE's for "Services to the Rail Industry" and be retired on the pension they seem so keen to deny everybody else...

Though that residual knowledge is worthless if OBS are no longer classified as competent; the knowledge they currently have will not be permitted to be used.

Hopefully they will have the authority to use the wheelchair ramp?

Which is why I keep asking; if OBS are meant to be in train doing revenue and customer service, with no need to be involved in dispatch duties, why the hell would you expect them to know if someone on the platform needs assistance, unless they are expected to stop what they are doing and watch passengers boarding/alighting - in which case that's what they frigging do a guard now!

 

[JamesTT]

With regards to assisted travel it does state clearly on the southern's website about booking 24 hours in advance. No doubt they will just point to this when a finger of complaint is raised. (No I don't think this is right)
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
This comment on a railnews article will get the blood bubbling

DOO and self dispatch without platform staff is always safer than with guards and platform staff at all times. All trains should run DOO and the drivers should do their jobs properly rather than moan about prosecution because they cannot be bothered to check a platform - hardly a taxing job for £50,000. All stations should be DOO self dispatch.

Drivers who don't want DOO should go the way of the guards, go and take a job on the minimum wage and see how far your hard leftist "safety" lies take you in the real world. The sooner railway workers are outsourced to G4S and replaced with keen migrants, and the thuggish unions crushed, the better for the rest of us.

Time to take on the FGW militants and Northerners after the brave Southern Management finally crush these socialist wreckers.

 

[Rich McLean]

With regards to assisted travel it does state clearly on the southern's website about booking 24 hours in advance. No doubt they will just point to this when a finger of complaint is raised. (No I don't think this is right)
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
This comment on a railnews article will get the blood bubbling

DOO and self dispatch without platform staff is always safer than with guards and platform staff at all times. All trains should run DOO and the drivers should do their jobs properly rather than moan about prosecution because they cannot be bothered to check a platform - hardly a taxing job for £50,000. All stations should be DOO self dispatch.

Drivers who don't want DOO should go the way of the guards, go and take a job on the minimum wage and see how far your hard leftist "safety" lies take you in the real world. The sooner railway workers are outsourced to G4S and replaced with keen migrants, and the thuggish unions crushed, the better for the rest of us.

Time to take on the FGW militants and Northerners after the brave Southern Management finally crush these socialist wreckers.

Straight out of the GTR/Dft Textbook that one

 

[JamesTT]

Straight out of the GTR/Dft Textbook that one

Maybe it was Charlie H using a pseudonym

 

[BestWestern]

This comment on a railnews article will get the blood bubbling

DOO and self dispatch without platform staff is always safer than with guards and platform staff at all times. All trains should run DOO and the drivers should do their jobs properly rather than moan about prosecution because they cannot be bothered to check a platform - hardly a taxing job for £50,000. All stations should be DOO self dispatch.

Drivers who don't want DOO should go the way of the guards, go and take a job on the minimum wage and see how far your hard leftist "safety" lies take you in the real world. The sooner railway workers are outsourced to G4S and replaced with keen migrants, and the thuggish unions crushed, the better for the rest of us.

Time to take on the FGW militants and Northerners after the brave Southern Management finally crush these socialist wreckers.

Some people are misguided, some people are just idiots. Such is life, thankfully nobody much tends to give their time to either variety.

 

[DarloRich]

Some people are misguided, some people are just idiots. Such is life, thankfully nobody much tends to give their time to either variety.

Until they join the Conservative Party

 

[Flamingo]

Until they join the Conservative Party

Or UKIP...

 

[TheManBehind]

Some people are misguided, some people are just idiots. Such is life, thankfully nobody much tends to give their time to either variety.

I don't know about you folks but that reads like satire. I mean, "brave Southern management"? I don't know anyone at either end of the spectrum that would say that.

 

[adc82140]

It reads no sillier than an RMT press release (and for the record as a passenger I support the guards in this dispute). I just believe that the union is not respresenting their members in the best way they could- lose the hyperbole and comments about the French and "basket-case" franchises and concentrate on educating the public (and media) about the importance of guards and how it's not simply about who "does the doors"

 

[ivanhoe]

Good luck everybody on here from Southern. It's the fight of everybody who works for the railway, or knows what's best for the railway and passengers.

This is ultimately about jobs though. I have sympathy for those affected but DOO is nothing new. If somebody can post information on major problems since the introduction of DOO, then it would be helpful to a of lot non railway workers and enthusiasts of railways.

 

[Dave1987]

It reads no sillier than an RMT press release (and for the record as a passenger I support the guards in this dispute). I just believe that the union is not respresenting their members in the best way they could- lose the hyperbole and comments about the French and "basket-case" franchises and concentrate on educating the public (and media) about the importance of guards and how it's not simply about who "does the doors"

You are not the only one that is dispairing of the RMT press releases.

 

[DarloRich]

You are not the only one that is dispairing of the RMT press releases.

Certainly not. I have a constant battle with my union about the tone and style of their communication. The points are very valid but are often lost in the general rhetoric.

 

[TheManBehind]

Certainly not. I have a constant battle with my union about the tone and style of their communication. The points are very valid but are often lost in the general rhetoric.

I think all but the most diehard of RMT members have looked at the press release and said "really?".

I was never keen on the press releases from the RMT, mostly due to the fact that if you want to be seen as a professional, you need to put a professional look on. RMT PR always looked extremely shouty and low-quality rhetoric, rather than a proper press release. Might as well have been a person on the street having a go at the TOC!

 

[Drogba11CFC]

I think all but the most diehard of RMT members have looked at the press release and said "really?".

I was never keen on the press releases from the RMT, mostly due to the fact that if you want to be seen as a professional, you need to put a professional look on. RMT PR always looked extremely shouty and low-quality rhetoric, rather than a proper press release. Might as well have been a person on the street having a go at the TOC!

They certainly seem to need to be less Morning Star and more Daily Mirror.

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[tony6499]

Whoever wrote that got a good topic and ruined it, I think whoever is doing these at the RMT is doing their members no favours at all.

Stop all the fat cat, French etc rhetoric and put some honest facts out to get the public fully onside.

 

[RichardN]

http://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWHC/QB/2016/1320.html

ASLEF really did get beaten here didn't they? If I'm reading this right, then if ASLEF are found to have called for drivers not to take out 12 car DOO(P) trains on GatEx, then they've possibly lost the right to ballot on this issue at all.

 

[Tetchytyke]

ASLEF really did get beaten here didn't they? If I'm reading this right, then if ASLEF are found to have called for drivers not to take out 12 car DOO(P) trains, then they've possibly lost the right to ballot on this issue at all.

Partly, although the section about the Caterham drivers was more interesting. Apparently ASLEF shouldn't have balloted the drivers there because they wouldn't be affected. How do we know they wouldn't be affected? GTR, having admitted that they could be affected, simply said they wouldn't be. The Judge took GTR's word for it, even though there is nothing to stop Caterham drivers being forced to take out 12-car DOO(P).

It seems my first instinct, that this was a very dubious decision, was entirely correct.

But then Justice Supperstone is a member of the Garrick Club, who voted to ban women from the premises, so he's not exactly a stranger to illiberal and dubious decision-making.

 

[74A]

It says in the court papers that all trains with in cab cctv will be DOO by the 31st July. If this is the case I assume driver training is currently going ahead on routes where it is not already used (i.e. East Grinstead).

Or does it just mean that routes where DOO is already used but sometimes conductors (such as Brighton) will simple transfer to DOO only at that date ?

 

[hounddog]

It seems my first instinct, that this was a very dubious decision, was entirely correct.

And your legal qualifications are what, exactly?

 

[WatcherZero]

DB Chairman has given an interview saying they want to have driverless main line trains by 2021-2023 using cameras to identify obstacles. They have built a 30km test track to develop the technology. The decision to press ahead with the technology is thought to have been taken due to the widespread driver strikes in 2014 that paralysed the network.

http://www.themanufacturer.com/articles/germany-to-introduce-driverless-trains-by-2023/

 

[Tetchytyke]

And your legal qualifications are what, exactly?

15 years working and studying in the sector...

The decision blatantly reads as Supperstone trying to make the facts fit his decision, not the other way around. The nonsense about Caterham drivers making the ballot invalid- even though the judge says they could contractually be affected, but GTR said they wouldn't and so they shouldn't have been balloted- would be laughable if it weren't so serious. As for the stuff about the legal advice being "an inducement to strike", that is frighteningly illiberal.

It's a stitch up. No doubt they'll all be talking about it down the Garrick.

 

[ainsworth74]

I struggle to understand your obsession with mentioning the Garrick Club at every verse end when it comes to this judge?

 

[redbutton]

It says in the court papers that all trains with in cab cctv will be DOO by the 31st July. If this is the case I assume driver training is currently going ahead on routes where it is not already used (i.e. East Grinstead).

Or does it just mean that routes where DOO is already used but sometimes conductors (such as Brighton) will simple transfer to DOO only at that date ?

I don't think there would need to be any additional driver training, since we're already qualified to do DOO dispatch using in-cab monitors. The unstaffed stations will need their dispatch plan documents revised, which presumably would involve a risk assessment, but I wouldn't expect more than a rubber-stamping exercise from Southern on this.