Southern DOO: ASLEF members vote 79.1% for revised deal

[JamesTT]

And be disciplined for doing so?

That press would have an absolute field day with that. Staff member disciplined for refusing to leave passengers waiting

 

[al78]

I think one of the issues is this discussion, is that some people have forgotten it is exactly that a discussion and woe betide those with an opinion that is not in total agreement with their's

I am not sure it is purely about disagreeing opinions, I think it is more about some people voicing opinions that could be classed as insensitive, antagonistic, controversial or distortion of facts/evidence. Human nature being what it is, it is not really surprising that such opinions have a tendency to result in backlash, particularly if such opinions are based on misinformed wibble rather than objective analysis. I suspect that if people post their opinions in a polite, tactful manner, they will be more likely to attract similarly polite responses, even from those with opposing opinions.

 

[speedy_sticks]

Why are people still treating DOO as if it was something completely new?

Because if you have traveled on a rail network spontaneously all your life, then get told that that you may have to pre book by 24 hours if you wish to travel, that's is a big deal.

Turn up and go, may still be offered at busy stations, but even that isn't guaranteed until 2021, it's a very big deal.

 

[HH]

Because if you have traveled on a rail network spontaneously all your life, then get told that that you may have to pre book by 24 hours if you wish to travel, that's is a big deal.

Have you actually been told that?

 

[alastair]

Because if you have traveled on a rail network spontaneously all your life, then get told that that you may have to pre book by 24 hours if you wish to travel, that's is a big deal.

Turn up and go, may still be offered at busy stations, but even that isn't guaranteed until 2021, it's a very big deal.

I appreciate the point you are making,but what happens now when you need to travel spontaneously on one of the many routes which are DOO already?

 

[Carlisle]

I appreciate the point you are making,but what happens now when you need to travel spontaneously on one of the many routes which are DOO already?

Do you think they eventually envisage some type of mostly DIY operated electric ramp being fitted to majority of trains or is that simply never going to happen anytime soon

 

[speedy_sticks]

Have you actually been told that?

Somebody please remind me what gas happened when other services go DOO, they loose the secondperson.

Southern have been unable to guarantee a percentage of OBS staff until 2021.

That's all you need to know.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I appreciate the point you are making,but what happens now when you need to travel spontaneously on one of the many routes which are DOO already?

Most of these are staffed by more than one person for longer.

 

[bb21]

That press would have an absolute field day with that. Staff member disciplined for refusing to leave passengers waiting

They would indeed have a field day, and would still somehow manage to spin it so that the blame falls largely on the union. Don't forget that the overwhelming majority of them have quite blatant agenda.

If they can't spin the story to support their agenda (whichever side of the fence they sit on), they won't bother giving it a mention.

 

[infobleep]

As no-one doing the dispatch (drivers, guards nor station staff) have any control over the automatic announcements, no they won't pay attention. Especially as the timely working of all trains is what keeps the timetable going.

What many do not realise is the technology is actually limited by NR not the TOCs as it works off track circuits so locations where it announces late is tied into where NR have their hardware and not fixable by the TOC.

Yet I have heard announcements cut off mid announcement so they can be overridden. Admittedly it's not often that is done. Most of the time it's just left to play out.

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[mrmatt]

I have been following this thread with interest and my opinions have been slowly changing on the matter. I am a daily user of Thameslink DOO services but used both Southern and Southeastern services on a daily basis in the past 5 years also (somehow govia seem to be haunting me).

I was initially of the opinion that whilst having a guard regularly check tickets and provide customer service has always been beneficial I hadn't felt any less safe or impacted using DOO services over the past 18 months.

However recently there have been a number of services I have been on (or not got) due to body side camera issues or been delayed due to passcom activations. I am now fully in support of having a second person on services who is able to dispatch, deal with passcoms and any other issues that can arise mid-journey. The delays experienced would not have happened had there been a second member of staff on board. There are other side benefits such as first class being seemly far more abused on Thameslink than Southern or Southeastern.

I am agnostic to whether the second person operates the doors or not (I understand both points of view. Given the lack of droplights on many services or the lack of ability for platform staff to halt a train easily once the RA has been given I do struggle to see how some of the PTI incidents described would be any different under DOO) the value in having a member of staff on board who can dispatch if the cameras fail, who can provide customer service and who can help deal with incidents is extremely valuable. Only the other week we stopped in the tunnel between St Pancras and the outside world towards Kentish Town because the driver had to fight their way through 9 carriages of standing room carriages and back again whereas a guard would at least have prevented the delay induced by the return to the cab.

My biggest quandary comes with respect to whether that second member of staff is mandatory. I don't feel DOO is unsafe enough to warrant cancelling services if there is an issue getting a second person on board (regardless of whether due to rostering, disruption etc) however feel during disruption the roster should be thrown out the window and guards put on whatever service makes sense next (allowing for pnb etc) with the caveat that the company taxi them home and ensure they get approapriate rest in return.

For me it fundamentally comes down to having the right contract in place. Many people have cited the TEs in Glasgow and I feel something like this could be workable (with the members of staff being trained to assist appropriately when there is an issue) but it would have to be with a mechanism for ensuring having no second person was extremely rare even during disruption.

What is beyond doubt though is that GTR have treated their staff appallingly and with a level of contempt that is unimaginable. It is clear the DfT are pushing their agenda here but I cannot see to what end. The cost savings in the grand scheme of the railway must be limited, which only leaves ideology which is a bit troubling.

 

[Deepgreen]

I am seeing reports in the media of what seems like a nightmarish late evening for the Redhill line yesterday. Almost all the trains via Redhill after about 2230 were cancelled, with just a couple running in the small hours! Reports of passengers at East Croydon in tears after being told all 'last' trains had been cancelled. Did anyone have the misfortune to be caught up in this latest Southern/GTR debacle?

 

[theironroad]

I understand there are trains being cancelled that have staff available to work them. Stock running ECS because it has no guard but the guard is sat twiddling his or her thumbs. How about in the interest of the passengers and their fellow colleagues, if a guard is available to work a train they work it even if management are saying it is "cancelled"

The thing about safety critical work is following the rules, instructions and procedures. That includes following instructions from control centres. If control issue an order for a train to run ecs or to stop specially or not to stop at particular stations, then train crew need to follow that. The real operational railway would descend into anarchy otherwise.

 

[tsr]

I am seeing reports in the media of what seems like a nightmarish late evening for the Redhill line yesterday. Almost all the trains via Redhill after about 2230 were cancelled, with just a couple running in the small hours! Reports of passengers at East Croydon in tears after being told all 'last' trains had been cancelled. Did anyone have the misfortune to be caught up in this latest Southern/GTR debacle?

It was fairly nightmarish, but there were services running, with the longest gaps in service being around 40mins - 1 hour from East Croydon. I'm not sure what the passengers were told or why, though services were heavily disrupted so they may have been told there would be an indefinite wait, which could have been misinterpreted as "no further trains".

It wasn't well-publicised, but there was a significant trespass incident yesterday evening at East Croydon which caused quite a lot of disruption, in addition to earlier emergency engineering at Horley, track circuit failure locking out the routes into Eastbourne station, and of course rostering problems.

 

[E&W Lucas]

What is beyond doubt though is that GTR have treated their staff appallingly and with a level of contempt that is unimaginable. It is clear the DfT are pushing their agenda here but I cannot see to what end. The cost savings in the grand scheme of the railway must be limited, which only leaves ideology which is a bit troubling.

It is indeed, and something that has implications way beyond the rail industry.
I sincerely hope that the Unions can bring their PR up to scratch, to enable them to communicate that message to the wider public.

 

[Deepgreen]

It was fairly nightmarish, but there were services running, with the longest gaps in service being around 40mins - 1 hour from East Croydon. I'm not sure what the passengers were told or why, though services were heavily disrupted so they may have been told there would be an indefinite wait, which could have been misinterpreted as "no further trains".

It wasn't well-publicised, but there was a significant trespass incident yesterday evening at East Croydon which caused quite a lot of disruption, in addition to earlier emergency engineering at Horley, track circuit failure locking out the routes into Eastbourne station, and of course rostering problems.

Not as bad as my 'service' this morning from Betchworth - no trains to Redhill from 0713 until at least 1113! Various excuses given - I don't which, or if all, were correct.

 

[JamesTT]

The thing about safety critical work is following the rules, instructions and procedures. That includes following instructions from control centres. If control issue an order for a train to run ecs or to stop specially or not to stop at particular stations, then train crew need to follow that. The real operational railway would descend into anarchy otherwise.

I can understand where you are coming from but surely the cancelled trains are already pathed to run as a passenger service with their booked calling pattern. No additional services are being put on to use the pathways that are freed up with stock running ECS fast to a destination.

 

[infobleep]

It was fairly nightmarish, but there were services running, with the longest gaps in service being around 40mins - 1 hour from East Croydon. I'm not sure what the passengers were told or why, though services were heavily disrupted so they may have been told there would be an indefinite wait, which could have been misinterpreted as "no further trains".

It wasn't well-publicised, but there was a significant trespass incident yesterday evening at East Croydon which caused quite a lot of disruption, in addition to earlier emergency engineering at Horley, track circuit failure locking out the routes into Eastbourne station, and of course rostering problems.

Put of intent, what's the reason it wasn't well publicised? Were people to busy trying to run what trains they could to publicise the information to passengers?

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Not as bad as my 'service' this morning from Betchworth - no trains to Redhill from 0713 until at least 1113! Various excuses given - I don't which, or if all, were correct.

Did they out you in a replacement taxi or lay on buses? I know it's not easy to source buses at the last minute.

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[Robertj21a]

Did they out you in a replacement taxi or lay on buses? I know it's not easy to source buses at the last minute.

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At peak time on a work/school day it would always be very difficult to find any spare buses/coaches. Quite apart from also finding some drivers.

 

[speedy_sticks]

The thing about safety critical work is following the rules, instructions and procedures. That includes following instructions from control centres. If control issue an order for a train to run ecs or to stop specially or not to stop at particular stations, then train crew need to follow that. The real operational railway would descend into anarchy otherwise.

What a dumb situation.

Why can't a train stop at where the guard is waiting?

I believe it's called rostering?

 

[Tomnick]

I can understand where you are coming from but surely the cancelled trains are already pathed to run as a passenger service with their booked calling pattern. No additional services are being put on to use the pathways that are freed up with stock running ECS fast to a destination.

What a dumb situation.

Why can't a train stop at where the guard is waiting?

I believe it's called rostering?

I'm certainly not defending GTR, not for a moment, but traincrew (and platform staff, signalmen etc., who would all need to be in on it) leading a revolution like this isn't the answer. Yes, there's a path for the cancelled train to run - but is there a driver to bring it back on its next working? What if an incoming service has been delayed by a traincrew issue and Control have made the decision to cancel one train to free up the unit to work something more critical? As above, they're leaving themselves wide open to disciplinary action, and it'd be very easy for the company to defend itself in the press if required. Far better to do as they're trying to do and expose the apparent lies for what they are.

 

[infobleep]

At peak time on a work/school day it would always be very difficult to find any spare buses/coaches. Quite apart from also finding some drivers.

That's what I thought in the past but sometimes I am surprised when TOCs announce buses and I'm talking during the week and not school holidays either!

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[Class377/5]

That's what I thought in the past but sometimes I am surprised when TOCs announce buses and I'm talking during the week and not school holidays either!

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Coaches from Wales have been sourced for Thameslink before now. In fact I believe Scottish companies have been approached for coaches for London based TOCs at short notice engineering works.

 

[redbutton]

I have been following this thread with interest and my opinions have been slowly changing on the matter. I am a daily user of Thameslink DOO services but used both Southern and Southeastern services on a daily basis in the past 5 years also (somehow govia seem to be haunting me).

I was initially of the opinion that whilst having a guard regularly check tickets and provide customer service has always been beneficial I hadn't felt any less safe or impacted using DOO services over the past 18 months.

However recently there have been a number of services I have been on (or not got) due to body side camera issues or been delayed due to passcom activations. I am now fully in support of having a second person on services who is able to dispatch, deal with passcoms and any other issues that can arise mid-journey. The delays experienced would not have happened had there been a second member of staff on board. There are other side benefits such as first class being seemly far more abused on Thameslink than Southern or Southeastern.

I am agnostic to whether the second person operates the doors or not (I understand both points of view. Given the lack of droplights on many services or the lack of ability for platform staff to halt a train easily once the RA has been given I do struggle to see how some of the PTI incidents described would be any different under DOO) the value in having a member of staff on board who can dispatch if the cameras fail, who can provide customer service and who can help deal with incidents is extremely valuable. Only the other week we stopped in the tunnel between St Pancras and the outside world towards Kentish Town because the driver had to fight their way through 9 carriages of standing room carriages and back again whereas a guard would at least have prevented the delay induced by the return to the cab.

My biggest quandary comes with respect to whether that second member of staff is mandatory. I don't feel DOO is unsafe enough to warrant cancelling services if there is an issue getting a second person on board (regardless of whether due to rostering, disruption etc) however feel during disruption the roster should be thrown out the window and guards put on whatever service makes sense next (allowing for pnb etc) with the caveat that the company taxi them home and ensure they get approapriate rest in return.

For me it fundamentally comes down to having the right contract in place. Many people have cited the TEs in Glasgow and I feel something like this could be workable (with the members of staff being trained to assist appropriately when there is an issue) but it would have to be with a mechanism for ensuring having no second person was extremely rare even during disruption.

What is beyond doubt though is that GTR have treated their staff appallingly and with a level of contempt that is unimaginable. It is clear the DfT are pushing their agenda here but I cannot see to what end. The cost savings in the grand scheme of the railway must be limited, which only leaves ideology which is a bit troubling.

A lot of people seem to be assuming that the OBS role is going to be like a guard minus dispatch duties. Personally, judging by what I've read from the company thus far, it seems to me that they'll be more like an RPI plus a smartphone to help people replan journeys on the go.

You can't infer from what GTR has released that OBS will be in any way competent to perform train dispatch duties in the event of a monitor failure, or that they will be PTS or GSM-R trained or competent to lead an evacuation to track level should the need arise. I also can't imagine any scenario in which they would have route or traction knowledge like a guard has, since there's a cost attached to maintaining it that would no longer be strictly necessary.

As a driver, that's what concerns me most- the thought of two 12-car crush loaded DOO services crashing into each other, drivers "incapacitated", with either no staff or a minimally-qualified OBS left to make the scene safe for the thousands of injured and shell-shocked commuters who would now be wandering around a live third-rail-electrified railway.

Also, any benefit to the passenger depends on OBS actually being fully rostered and available to work the trains, which as we know the company haven't committed to until 2021. Coincidentally, this is when the franchise ends, so the next operator may be free to scale back or eliminate the role altogether.

With regard to the ideology angle, word on the street is that the Government (via the DfT) is keen for GTR to win so that they can secure key legal precedents regarding strike ballot validity and forced terms and conditions, which would then be useful in future disputes in other industries (e.g. the NHS). That could just be messroom rumours, but it really does seem plausible after seeing what went on with the junior doctors.

 

[Robertj21a]

That's what I thought in the past but sometimes I am surprised when TOCs announce buses and I'm talking during the week and not school holidays either!

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During off-peak it will be much easier but at school/peak times it would be a very inefficient operator if they had a number of buses and drivers readily available (excluding specialist operators like Ensign).

 

[plymothian]

A lot of people seem to be assuming that the OBS role is going to be like a guard minus dispatch duties. Personally, judging by what I've read from the company thus far, it seems to me that they'll be more like an RPI plus a smartphone to help people replan journeys on the go.

You can't infer from what GTR has released that OBS will be in any way competent to perform train dispatch duties in the event of a monitor failure, or that they will be PTS or GSM-R trained or competent to lead an evacuation to track level should the need arise. I also can't imagine any scenario in which they would have route or traction knowledge like a guard has, since there's a cost attached to maintaining it that would no longer be strictly necessary.

They won't be guards.
Horton stated in RailNews that OBS WON'T have route knowledge and will be expected just to jump on any train going anywhere. Ergo, they cannot be guards.

As current RPIs, ticket examiners and customer service roles don't need PTS, GSM-R or traction knowledge, so you can logically say that these will go too. Though you may get a concession on the traction knowledge so they are able to "control the heating".

An OBS thus degrades from a Competent Person to a Designated Person under the authority of the driver. At best an OBS will then only be able to say to passengers when things go belly-up, "I don't know".

 

[Flamingo]

They won't be guards.
Horton stated in RailNews that OBS WON'T have route knowledge and will be expected just to jump on any train going anywhere. Ergo, they cannot be guards.

As current RPIs, ticket examiners and customer service roles don't need PTS, GSM-R or traction knowledge, so you can logically say that these will go too. Though you may get a concession on the traction knowledge so they are able to "control the heating".

An OBS thus degrades from a Competent Person to a Designated Person under the authority of the driver. At best an OBS will then only be able to say to passengers when things go belly-up, "I don't know".

Of course, there will be a large amount of "residual knowkedge" amongst the new OBS who were Guards, so while they are in the role, the vast majority of the time passengers will not notice a difference, and the role will be touted as a success.

It could take some years for the major cracks to appear, by which time the individuals within the industry pushing to get rid of Guards will have their OBE's for "Services to the Rail Industry" and be retired on the pension they seem so keen to deny everybody else...

 

[tony6499]

Of course, there will be a large amount of "residual knowkedge" amongst the new OBS who were Guards, so while they are in the role, the vast majority of the time passengers will not notice a difference, and the role will be touted as a success.

It could take some years for the major cracks to appear, by which time the individuals within the industry pushing to get rid of Guards will have their OBE's for "Services to the Rail Industry" and be retired on the pension they seem so keen to deny everybody else...

People such as Peter Wilkinson will destroy the rail industry as a secure job for the employees as well as ruining it for the passengers and in a few years time take a massive pension and pop up to the Queen to get the sword on his shoulder.

Until this is changed nothing will happen and things will get worse, the girl shouting to Cameron summed it up perfectly yesterday 'Everything you do you f**k it up'.

 

[ungreat]

Of course, there will be a large amount of "residual knowkedge" amongst the new OBS who were Guards, so while they are in the role, the vast majority of the time passengers will not notice a difference, and the role will be touted as a success.

It could take some years for the major cracks to appear, by which time the individuals within the industry pushing to get rid of Guards will have their OBE's for "Services to the Rail Industry" and be retired on the pension they seem so keen to deny everybody else...

Wheres the "Abso-bloody-lutely spot frickin' on" button!!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

A lot of people seem to be assuming that the OBS role is going to be like a guard minus dispatch duties. Personally, judging by what I've read from the company thus far, it seems to me that they'll be more like an RPI plus a smartphone to help people replan journeys on the go.

You can't infer from what GTR has released that OBS will be in any way competent to perform train dispatch duties in the event of a monitor failure, or that they will be PTS or GSM-R trained or competent to lead an evacuation to track level should the need arise. I also can't imagine any scenario in which they would have route or traction knowledge like a guard has, since there's a cost attached to maintaining it that would no longer be strictly necessary.

As a driver, that's what concerns me most- the thought of two 12-car crush loaded DOO services crashing into each other, drivers "incapacitated", with either no staff or a minimally-qualified OBS left to make the scene safe for the thousands of injured and shell-shocked commuters who would now be wandering around a live third-rail-electrified railway.

Also, any benefit to the passenger depends on OBS actually being fully rostered and available to work the trains, which as we know the company haven't committed to until 2021. Coincidentally, this is when the franchise ends, so the next operator may be free to scale back or eliminate the role altogether.

With regard to the ideology angle, word on the street is that the Government (via the DfT) is keen for GTR to win so that they can secure key legal precedents regarding strike ballot validity and forced terms and conditions, which would then be useful in future disputes in other industries (e.g. the NHS). That could just be messroom rumours, but it really does seem plausible after seeing what went on with the junior doctors.

Yes.Bang on mate.I think that is exactly the case

 

[infobleep]

During off-peak it will be much easier but at school/peak times it would be a very inefficient operator if they had a number of buses and drivers readily available (excluding specialist operators like Ensign).

Well I'm sure South West Trains have been able to source buses between Farnham and Alton at short notice.

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

 

[tsr]

Put of intent, what's the reason it wasn't well publicised? Were people to busy trying to run what trains they could to publicise the information to passengers?

East Croydon station staff were dealing with the trespasser and dispatch, and being busy with that meant they could only provide minimal information at their own station at times, but for some reason there was very little coming from Southern Control in terms of customer information. Presumably they were either snowed under with moving the limited amount of available crew (and therefore also trains) around, or there was a breakdown in communications somewhere about the scope of the issue. I actually initially got the information directly from BTP officers who were riding my train, which is fairly unusual as a primary source of information unless you're actually involved in an incident (or pre-planned things like crowd control, but that's irrelevant here)!