Southern DOO: ASLEF members vote 79.1% for revised deal

[plymothian]

Not sure if the misspelling of length and dispatch makes it genuine or not.

 

[HLE]

It's tweeted from their official account.

Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear!

 

[mbreckers]

It's tweeted from their official account.

Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear!

The tweet in question seems to have been deleted, there was a reply as can be seen by the final reply from @honestsouthern9 but not there anymore

Tweets in question: https://twitter.com/stoatsnest/status/739882371051360256

 

[SPADTrap]

The fact they've deleted it says it all.

 

[Fincra5]

Theres a lot of screenshots out there

 

[infobleep]

Do we know which service the tweet referred to?

I don't but hopefully someone with a bigger interest in this than me will have or will be able to find out from the person and use that to help them.

Of course GTR could claim the staff member on Twitter was speaking out of turn and what he said wasn't true.

Perhaps someone who ask the Twitter staff if their replies are their views or the policy of GTR?

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

 

[tony6499]

I don't but hopefully someone with a bigger interest in this than me will have or will be able to find out from the person and use that to help them.

Of course GTR could claim the staff member on Twitter was speaking out of turn and what he said wasn't true.

Perhaps someone who ask the Twitter staff if their replies are their views or the policy of GTR?

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

As it came from the SouthernRail twitter account then it would be seen as company policy

 

[maniacmartin]

Today, the 07:30 departure from Purley to London Bridge (ex-05:57 from Littlehampton) was manually announced over the tannoys in Purley as being cancelled due to a shortage of train crew. This unit forms the 08:02 London Bridge to Horsham, but in London Bridge the 08:02 was being announced as cancelled due to a train fault. I've now checked both services on RealTimeTrains and both are showing 'This service was cancelled throughout due to the planned train being replaced with a slower train.'

This is not the first time that I have witnessed station announcers blaming cancellations on a shortage of staff, for it to turn out to not be the cause upon further investigation -- a similar thing happened to me in East Croydon a few days ago. It appears to me that 'shortage of train crew' has become the default explanation for anything regardless of whether it is the actual cause.

 

[W230]

It appears to me that 'shortage of train crew' has become the default explanation for anything regardless of whether it is the actual cause.

My Bedford service said it was delayed due to having to wait for a member of train crew last week and I was there on time - it was the train that was half an hour late due to signal failure at Gatwick!

 

[Surreytraveller]

This is not the first time that I have witnessed station announcers blaming cancellations on a shortage of staff, for it to turn out to not be the cause upon further investigation -- a similar thing happened to me in East Croydon a few days ago. It appears to me that 'shortage of train crew' has become the default explanation for anything regardless of whether it is the actual cause.

How do you know which excuse is correct? A manual announcement will often be the more accurate, as the computer generated ones are limited to a list of choices, and someone often chooses the choice which they consider fits best. The root cause may be shortage of crews - perhaps the train is broken because they couldn't get it back to the depot for maintenance due to no driver?

 

[Tetchytyke]

the computer generated ones are limited to a list of choices, and someone often chooses the choice which they consider fits best.

GoVia's management are putting "no staff" as the "best fit" in the cancellation reason routinely, in the middle of a vicious industrial relations dispute where they are claiming that the changes will eliminate staff shortages.

Now I know I'm a cynic and all that, but really...

 

[ComUtoR]

How do you know which excuse is correct? A manual announcement will often be the more accurate, as the computer generated ones are limited to a list of choices, and someone often chooses the choice which they consider fits best. The root cause may be shortage of crews - perhaps the train is broken because they couldn't get it back to the depot for maintenance due to no driver?

I see the total opposite. Manual announcements are based on what that member of staff either sees or is told. A lot of what happens behind the scenes are not known to onboard staff so the guys in CIS who put the announcements out are using what they have been told by control and the guys in delay attribution are inputting codes either on the fly or after the root cause is known and the delay attributed. We get delays sent to us and then returned to the attribution department for better clarity. By then its too late to announce the correct reason for the delay but the code will be corrected in the system.

There is also a difference between immediate cause and root cause.

 

[Class377/5]

I see the total opposite. Manual announcements are based on what that member of staff either sees or is told. A lot of what happens behind the scenes are not known to onboard staff so the guys in CIS who put the announcements out are using what they have been told by control and the guys in delay attribution are inputting codes either on the fly or after the root cause is known and the delay attributed. We get delays sent to us and then returned to the attribution department for better clarity. By then its too late to announce the correct reason for the delay but the code will be corrected in the system.

There is also a difference between immediate cause and root cause.

And for some events there is more than one reason why trains are cancelled.

 

[Wolfie]

It is devious to end your post,after a lot of cruel insults,by saying you would back anyone who beat the MD of a major rail company in a dark alley way,& then after it had shocked people who read it,including myself who condemned your brutal remarks, to remove the offending last line so my post looks like an overreaction. I am glad you removed it,but the filth has been spread over this normally very good site.
I imagine Mr Horton is trying to run the railway as well as he can & DOO has been widely used since a quarter of a century ago,world wide. I don't expect even the collective of red flag wavers would have applauded seeing the man who removed them from walking in front of locos 2 century's ago being beaten to a pulp. Glad to hear you don't work on our railway.

I need to be very careful not to break forum rules in answering this post - I deliberately did not do so yesterday for that reason - but answer it I certainly will.

1 Firstly my "cruel insults" I assume refer to Mr Horton's capabilities, past employment history and the tactics he is using in this dispute. I stand by every single one of those comments. Anyone who used CONNEX knows what a completely useless shower the management were - they couldn't run a bath - and indeed they managed the stellar achievement of having two franchises, South Central and South Eastern, revoked, the latter reverting to public management for a time. Mr Horton was a senior manager for CONNEX.... No one except you has challenged my comments or found them in the slightest objectionable. I can only conclude therefore that the sneers made by some other posters about the possibility that you are Mr Horton, a member of his family, a close colleague or a particular senior DfT official may actually have some foundation.

2 With respect to DOO and its safety, all I will say is that a significant number of industry insiders have already explained on this forum the limitations of DOO and how changes in the UK railway since it was first introduced have made the safety case more questionable - there is none so blind as he who won't see...

3 My comment "shocked people who read it" did it? The ONLY person who expressed any shock was you. Anyone else who actually commented supported me...

4 Despite that I reviewed my original post and, having decided that the language was a tad excessive, made an appropriate change. Most people who had expressed concerns over something would appreciate such a gesture. Not you, who instead decided that this was all part of some great conspiracy to make you look bad... To be very clear, I don't know you, I probably don't want to know you, and you flatter yourself if you think that making some individual on the net who I don't know from Adam look bad is one of my life aspirations...

5 With respect to your other comments, get over yourself and stop coming over as an individual who is as arrogant as they are pretentious. Forums are about opinions. It so happens that mine diverge from yours. That neither means that you are right nor that you have the right to pontificate like some self-appointed forum editor. IF, and it is a big IF, you believed that my original post broke forum rules then the correct response was to report it as others have said. Why did you not do that? Perhaps you actually did and the moderators didn't support you... I can imagine that the latter would doubtless picque your apparently rather inflated sense of your own self-importance.

 

[Deepgreen]

I am surprised, actually, that this thread has not been quite a lot more vitriolic than it has been, given the Mods' opening comments.

 

[Flamingo]

I am surprised, actually, that this thread has not been quite a lot more vitriolic than it has been, given the Mods' opening comments.

Oh, it has been! The mods have been very busy removing offending posts...

 

[Deepgreen]

Oh, it has been! The mods have been very busy removing offending posts...

Ah...

 

[Wolfie]

Oh, it has been! The mods have been very busy removing offending posts...

Interesting..makes my suspicion that someone has the hump because the mods didn't support him all the stronger...

 

[Robertj21a]

Although I am aware that a number of posts have been removed by the Mods, it's still good to see that a thread on a blatantly 'difficult' and highly sensitive issue such as this has been able to struggle through and remain generally constructive.

 

[infobleep]

At Clapham Junction the guard held his hand up and blew the whilst for the delayed 17.08 to depart. It being 17.38. Whilst doing this the automatic announcement of stations was still being played. Two passengers boarded the train this late stage.

If they insist on DOO, will they ensure the doors do not close before the announcements have completed; start the announcements sooner, or do neither and not care?

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

 

[tony6499]

It seems that direct industrial action seems to have died a death at the moment, the RMT are letting the shambles of the service that is being offered do the job for them.

I've heard from ex colleagues on the front line at Brighton that a lot more anger is coming out from commuters due to their frustration at the amount of delays and cancellations which seem to be getting worse each day, I hope for their sake that we don't see assaults start to occur due to it.

 

[hounddog]

At Clapham Junction the guard held his hand up and blew the whilst for the delayed 17.08 to depart. It being 17.38. Whilst doing this the automatic announcement of stations was still being played. Two passengers boarded the train this late stage.

If they insist on DOO, will they ensure the doors do not close before the announcements have completed; start the announcements sooner, or do neither and not care?

Over the years I've been on many trains, at many locations - both DOO and non-DOO - that have been despatched while the automated announcements are sill being played so it would appear that it's something that is not given much attention at the moment.

 

[D1009]

At Clapham Junction the guard held his hand up and blew the whilst for the delayed 17.08 to depart. It being 17.38. Whilst doing this the automatic announcement of stations was still being played. Two passengers boarded the train this late stage.

If they insist on DOO, will they ensure the doors do not close before the announcements have completed; start the announcements sooner, or do neither and not care?

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

Why are people still treating DOO as if it was something completely new?

 

[Class377/5]

At Clapham Junction the guard held his hand up and blew the whilst for the delayed 17.08 to depart. It being 17.38. Whilst doing this the automatic announcement of stations was still being played. Two passengers boarded the train this late stage.

If they insist on DOO, will they ensure the doors do not close before the announcements have completed; start the announcements sooner, or do neither and not care?

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

As no-one doing the dispatch (drivers, guards nor station staff) have any control over the automatic announcements, no they won't pay attention. Especially as the timely working of all trains is what keeps the timetable going.

What many do not realise is the technology is actually limited by NR not the TOCs as it works off track circuits so locations where it announces late is tied into where NR have their hardware and not fixable by the TOC.

 

[Deepgreen]

The new edition of 'Private Eye' carries a short item in its 'Signal Failures' section about GTR.

 

[JamesTT]

I understand there are trains being cancelled that have staff available to work them. Stock running ECS because it has no guard but the guard is sat twiddling his or her thumbs. How about in the interest of the passengers and their fellow colleagues, if a guard is available to work a train they work it even if management are saying it is "cancelled"

 

[G136GREYHOUND]

I am surprised, actually, that this thread has not been quite a lot more vitriolic than it has been, given the Mods' opening comments.

It has, as some of us who do it for real and want to see all the people we have a responsibility for, get to where they are going, in one, whole happy piece, really do object to armchair rubbish from people who do not know what the heck they are talking about, or who clearly have hidden ( work for GTR or Dft ) agendas .

 

[Deepgreen]

It has, as some of us who do it for real and want to see all the people we have a responsibility for, get to where they are going, in one, whole happy piece, really do object to armchair rubbish from people who do not know what the heck they are talking about, or who clearly have hidden ( work for GTR or Dft ) agendas .

Well, while the first may be true, I can categorically say the latter isn't in my case. Apologies if upset was caused.

 

[JamesTT]

I think one of the issues is this discussion, is that some people have forgotten it is exactly that a discussion and woe betide those with an opinion that is not in total agreement with their's

 

[HLE]

I understand there are trains being cancelled that have staff available to work them. Stock running ECS because it has no guard but the guard is sat twiddling his or her thumbs. How about in the interest of the passengers and their fellow colleagues, if a guard is available to work a train they work it even if management are saying it is "cancelled"

And be disciplined for doing so?