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Southern DOO: ASLEF members vote 79.1% for revised deal

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gimmea50anyday

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Blaming staff is part of the campaign to get the general public on side with company management. If the staff get blamed, look how much easier it will be to run trains when they no longer need the staff, less cancellations makes the service look better!
 
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infobleep

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I noticed another trip cancelled up to a planning error. Some were cancelled due to staff shortages but at least two were planning errors according to real time trains. Not that many passengers would know that.

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87015

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I noticed another trip cancelled up to a planning error. Some were cancelled due to staff shortages but at least two were planning errors according to real time trains. Not that many passengers would know that.

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It's RTT being dubious with its definition of delay codes again. TI is nothing to do with train planning, it's rostering and often lack of a rostered crew. Someone at RTT seems to keep changing some of its translations to hint at blame lying on certain quarters.
 

Carlisle

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Blaming staff is part of the campaign to get the general public on side with company management. If the staff get blamed, look how much easier it will be to run trains when they no longer need the staff, less cancellations makes the service look better!

In all honesty I'm pretty sure most in Management would much rather this sort of re organisation had gone far smother if there had been a magic formula to achieve it
 

Carlisle

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they have a funny way of showing that desire!

I totally agree with you there but of course we don't know what real attempt either side made in any negotiations that did take place as they're confidential,
 
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Frontera2

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Looking at the online Redhill departure board today, I see that only one train has been cancelled due to shortage of train crew. It doesn't say if it's a driver or guard.

I wouldn't call that major disruption that warrants a general note about service disruption. If it does then I can think of many other situations where a general note is required but Southern don't bother to put such a thing up!

Also I note that the general disruption note doesn't appear on the Clapham Junction online departure board, despite Southern running services from there. Perhaps they feel not enough trains are disrupted but if that's the case then I'd say Redhill is not disrupted enough today.

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--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Here's an issue that Southern haven't put a general note up about but should do, given it's probably causing as much disruption as the shortage of guards. Double standards by Southern? To be expected.

Interesting how the train left 37 minutes late from Victoria but only a minute late from East Croydon. I doubt we can blame Southern management for that though.

4b1dd15e20fdf432f47b6296ca508efb.jpg


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For the record, it's not the TOC who puts these general notes up, but NRE.
 

speedy_sticks

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they have a funny way of showing that desire!

OBS wise it has been a disaster PR move bt Southern, they haven't got a bloody clue!

I have spoken to the accessibility manager of Southern on the phone a few times, not once as he asked how it could or should be improved. Nobody in the company is for it apart from the Management!

At least in Scotland, the new SNP Transport Minister seems to want to listen and see what could be done with the DOO situation up there.

Scotrail are also going to be working with an accessibility app, which should improve accessibility communication.

Utter Shame on the incompetent DfT here for not being bothered.
 

Altnabreac

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OBS wise it has been a disaster PR move bt Southern, they haven't got a bloody clue!

I have spoken to the accessibility manager of Southern on the phone a few times, not once as he asked how it could or should be improved. Nobody in the company is for it apart from the Management!

At least in Scotland, the new SNP Transport Minister seems to want to listen and see what could be done with the DOO situation up there.

Scotrail are also going to be working with an accessibility app, which should improve accessibility communication.

Utter Shame on the incompetent DfT here for not being bothered.

No DOO in Scotland
 

gimmea50anyday

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Its worth pointing out not all management are pro DOO, the con and OBS line manager roles are also under threat. No conductors, means no conductor minder or trainers and no OBSMs to manage them either
 

Altnabreac

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There is - search for the Strathclyde Manning Agreement.

DCO ;)

Given the issue Speedy Sticks was raising is a lack of on board staff to assist wheelchair users with boarding / alighting then the difference is relevant.

I'd still prefer that TEs were PTS trained but it has to be acknowledged that the Strathclyde system is better for wheelchair users than 1 man operation or the GTR proposal for a mixture of staffing.
 

LowLevel

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DCO ;)

Given the issue Speedy Sticks was raising is a lack of on board staff to assist wheelchair users with boarding / alighting then the difference is relevant.

I'd still prefer that TEs were PTS trained but it has to be acknowledged that the Strathclyde system is better for wheelchair users than 1 man operation or the GTR proposal for a mixture of staffing.

That's not DCO as DCO didn't exist as a concept at the time of the SMA, this has been covered about 400 times in this thread. Putting a silly wink on it doesn't make it anymore correct. DCO as a phrase has appeared in the last couple of years as a DfT PR buzzword.

DCO - driver operates the train but still has a mandatory second person on board - still DOO really anyway in terms of the rulebook but the only trains currently operated in this manner are SouthEastern Highspeed 395s which cannot operate without a second crew member.

Scot Rail SMA services are DOO with rostered ticket examiners that the train can leave without. If an inspector manages to travel without a ticket ScotRail get fined, that is all.
 

NSEFAN

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LowLevel said:
That's not DCO as DCO didn't exist as a concept at the time of the SMA, this has been covered about 400 times in this thread. Putting a silly wink on it doesn't make it anymore correct. DCO as a phrase has appeared in the last couple of years as a DfT PR buzzword.
Are Voyagers and Pendolinos not run on DCO, effectively? Driver releases the doors but cannot close them or depart without a signal from the guard?

LowLevel said:
Scot Rail SMA services are DOO with rostered ticket examiners that the train can leave without. If an inspector manages to travel without a ticket ScotRail get fined, that is all.
Indeed. There is a second member of staff rostered to work, but there's not a 100% chance of them being there. The ticket examiners will also not have the same safety training as an operational guard, which saves money but is perhaps not as helpful during an emergency (depending upon the nature of what's gone wrong).
 

craigybagel

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Are Voyagers and Pendolinos not run on DCO, effectively? Driver releases the doors but cannot close them or depart without a signal from the guard?

Not really. As far as door operation is concerned, DOO and DCO are the same, the driver does everything. On Voyagers, the only difference from conventional driver guard operation is the driver presses the blue close button when the guard tells him to. On Pendolinos the guard closes the doors without any driver involvement, same as how Southern (and a few others) currently work on most non DOO services.
 

380101

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DCO ;)

Given the issue Speedy Sticks was raising is a lack of on board staff to assist wheelchair users with boarding / alighting then the difference is relevant.

I'd still prefer that TEs were PTS trained but it has to be acknowledged that the Strathclyde system is better for wheelchair users than 1 man operation or the GTR proposal for a mixture of staffing.

Not so good for the wheelchair users who have experienced terrible service on DOO trains in the last week! one had to be assisted by a taxi driver using HIS taxi wheelchair ramp due to no TE and another over carried due to no TE. These are only the tip of the ice berg in terms of the failings of ScotRail to assist disabled passengers.
 

Bletchleyite

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Not really. As far as door operation is concerned, DOO and DCO are the same, the driver does everything. On Voyagers, the only difference from conventional driver guard operation is the driver presses the blue close button when the guard tells him to. On Pendolinos the guard closes the doors without any driver involvement, same as how Southern (and a few others) currently work on most non DOO services.

Driver door *release* has a lot going for it where SDO is not needed or where SDO is controlled automatically - particularly where guards have to do revenue as well. Interestingly the Class 175s as built had driver door release and were modified so the guard had to do it because the unions were having none of it, seeing it as progress towards DOO.
 

BHXDMT

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Driver door *release* has a lot going for it where SDO is not needed or where SDO is controlled automatically - particularly where guards have to do revenue as well. Interestingly the Class 175s as built had driver door release and were modified so the guard had to do it because the unions were having none of it, seeing it as progress towards DOO.

As a Guard, I'd be happy to accept Driver door release so long as the rest of the role remains unchanged. 99% of the time I am at a door panel ready for the next station stop, but it limits the revenue duties I can carry out because I need to stop that and head to a panel. On some sections of routes I sign, I can't carry out revenue duties at all without delaying the train because panels are too far apart and station stops too close.

Of course, my preferred option would be for TOCs to retrofit door panels at every single door (or ensure new stock comes with them fitted at every door). That would mean I could easily conduct both duties, even with short distances between stops.
 

Altnabreac

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Not so good for the wheelchair users who have experienced terrible service on DOO trains in the last week! one had to be assisted by a taxi driver using HIS taxi wheelchair ramp due to no TE and another over carried due to no TE. These are only the tip of the ice berg in terms of the failings of ScotRail to assist disabled passengers.

Anecdote doesn't equal data. Squire Schedule 33 Train staff and customer care is running at 97.5% and not all of that 2.5% failure will be for TEs not present as you can also fail for poor customer service, inability to sell tickets, failure to make announcements and not wearing a badge.

Indeed checking the various classes gives these numbers for Q2, Q3 and Q4 2015:

314 Train Staff and Customer Care 100 100 100
318 Train Staff and Customer Care 98.04 94.55 93.94
320 Train Staff and Customer Care 100 95.31 94.67
334 Train Staff and Customer Care 99.01 93.81 99.24
380 Train Staff and Customer Care 100 97.26 98.08

I have no particular DOO grudge to bear either way but I think from a customer perspective it's worth emphasising that the more on board staff the better. Strathclyde system is much preferable to 1 staff member DOO down south from a customer perspective even if an occasional train has no ticket examiner.

Having a TE on every train may not be as good as a Guard but it is much better than no staff presence at all.
 

380101

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Anecdote doesn't equal data. Squire Schedule 33 Train staff and customer care is running at 97.5% and not all of that 2.5% failure will be for TEs not present as you can also fail for poor customer service, inability to sell tickets, failure to make announcements and not wearing a badge.

Indeed checking the various classes gives these numbers for Q2, Q3 and Q4 2015:

314 Train Staff and Customer Care 100 100 100
318 Train Staff and Customer Care 98.04 94.55 93.94
320 Train Staff and Customer Care 100 95.31 94.67
334 Train Staff and Customer Care 99.01 93.81 99.24
380 Train Staff and Customer Care 100 97.26 98.08

I have no particular DOO grudge to bear either way but I think from a customer perspective it's worth emphasising that the more on board staff the better. Strathclyde system is much preferable to 1 staff member DOO down south from a customer perspective even if an occasional train has no ticket examiner.

Having a TE on every train may not be as good as a Guard but it is much better than no staff presence at all.

The squire statistics only tell half a story though. IE; only a train a squire is onboard can pass or fail the regime. Scotrail are never going to grass themselves up if there is no TE onboard a service. Incidentally, over 130 trains have run without a TE in the last 8 weeks. Whilst this is a massively small figure given the amount of trains that run, it's still breaking the SMA and putting the public at a disadvantage and providing a poorer service. The Strathclyde model of DOO is indeed better but still does not guarantee 2nd person onboard at all times.
 

craigybagel

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Driver door *release* has a lot going for it where SDO is not needed or where SDO is controlled automatically - particularly where guards have to do revenue as well. Interestingly the Class 175s as built had driver door release and were modified so the guard had to do it because the unions were having none of it, seeing it as progress towards DOO.

It wasn't just the union, there was also an issue with the several stations they call at that are too short to accommodate an entire unit,and as such local door only operation is required.

Incidentally, ATW also modded the units so the intermediate panels could be used fully, meaning that only in the front carriage is the Conductor ever more than half a carriage away from door controls.
 

DarloRich

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Whislt not directly linked to the matter in hand i have just seen a tweeted link to an intresting article in RAIL:

http://www.railmagazine.com/news/ne...lan?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

RAIL: The Department for Transport (DfT) and Govia Thameslink Railway (GTR) have agreed a remedial plan in a bid to improve reliability on Thameslink, Southern and Gatwick Express services, after the operator breached its Schedule 7.1 benchmark for cancellations.

The plan, issued on February 12 but only made public in May, blames a shortage of drivers inherited from previous franchisees, insufficient driver training, higher than anticipated driver turnover, and an “inherited backlog” in driver training for engineering projects and route knowledge.

- See more at: http://www.railmagazine.com/news/ne...rfeed&utm_medium=twitter#sthash.opGaT1EN.dpuf
 

sarahj

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So my letter arrived. It seems sometimes around 20th August I will be getting my 12 weeks notice. I will then have 4 weeks to decide if I want to either : Go on the dole, or be a OBS. Sadly, not much of a choice :( I also got another letter telling me that since I went on strike I need to hand in my car park pass and rail pass. Should make getting to those 4am starts and coming home from 2.30am finishes a bit more complex. (the rail pass TBH, I'm not that bothered about, use the FIP and ATOC ones more)
I'm off this week on a block of restdays, so it's been nice to get away from it all. Funny thing is the latter asking for passes back, came the day after I had a person need urgent medical treatment. We waited for 30 mins at Plumpton station for an ambulance (on the ambulance services advice), but I made sure that everyone on the train got home on one of the last trains. All the punters seemed ok, with a few going, glad your here, and so on. So for a tiny moment I thought the letter in my pigeon hole might have been a 'thanks'. But then I remembered who I work for. Oh well.:|
 
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ANorthernGuard

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So my letter arrived. It seems sometimes around 20th August I will be getting my 12 weeks notice. I will then have 4 weeks to decide if I want to either : Go on the dole, or be a OBS. Sadly, not much of a choice :( I also got another letter telling me that since I went on strike I need to hand in my car park pass and rail pass. Should make getting to those 4am starts and coming home from 2.30am finishes a bit more complex. (the rail pass TBH, I'm not that bothered about, use the FIP and ATOC ones more)
I'm off this week on a block of restdays, so it's been nice to get away from it all. Funny thing is the latter asking for passes back, came the day after I had a person need urgent medical treatment. We waited for 30 mins at Plumpton station for an ambulance (on the ambulance services advice), but I made sure that everyone on the train got home on one of the last trains. All the punters seemed ok, with a few going, glad your here, and so on. So for a tiny moment I thought the letter in my pigeon hole might have been a 'thanks'. But then I remembered who I work for. Oh well.:|

Keep fighting sarahj. All of us up here in Northern land are right behind our colleagues in Southern.
 

craigy68

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Travelling down from London yesterday and heard the driver announce that we wouldn't be stopping at Hassocks due to some problem with his 'in cab cameras' (couldn't make out the full message) and that he couldn't self dispatch.

He then said something along the lines of 'so this is the reason and not staff sickness' :shock:

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/W70226/2016/06/01/advanced

Can anyone find the reason that was submitted ?
 

87015

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Travelling down from London yesterday and heard the driver announce that we wouldn't be stopping at Hassocks due to some problem with his 'in cab cameras' (couldn't make out the full message) and that he couldn't self dispatch.

He then said something along the lines of 'so this is the reason and not staff sickness' :shock:

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/W70226/2016/06/01/advanced

Can anyone find the reason that was submitted ?

There isn't a reason submitted. The stops are shown as taking place, yet more complete fudging of PPM (this train that should be a failure is recorded as a success). Why anyone thinks they are worth the paper they are written on is beyond me.
 
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