Southern DOO: ASLEF members vote 79.1% for revised deal

[speedy_sticks]

I suppose when your personal quality of life will be significantly reduced by this OBS policy, my only choice is to side with the union.

So it's "utter rubbish", but you can't prove otherwise. The Southern website specifically says "high level of conductor and driver sickness". Whatever many people think of GTR, I don't believe they would put out a very explicit statement knowing it to be untrue, especially one that can be verified.

I'd have hoped from the rest of my comments that you would see I have tried to give a neutral view of the dispute, albeit then giving who I suspect will ultimately prevail. My comment about the level of staff sickness was in a similar vein - if it is indeed accurate then I don't see why GTR should not give that as the reason for cancellations.

 

[ainsworth74]

All other TOCS with DOO intentions should also walk in one mass co-ordinated action.

I'm not sure that would be legal unless DOO is actually being actively introduced (i.e. that there is an actual dispute rather than a possible one in the future). I am not an expert on Trade Union law/disputes so someone might be able to confirm one way or the other but my gut feeling is if, for example, ALSEF and the RMT balloted for strike action on Northern right now I'm not sure it would be legal.

 

[JamesTT]

Not so if all the station toilets are locked up and not abilene due to the ticket offices being closed. Also the next train might not be for an another hour.

Thr Cobham line doesn't have toilets open for that long. I don't know the full opening hours of ticket offices on that line. It's fine once you reach Surbiton of course but that's still 30 minutes away from Guildford.

The Gatwick Airport to Reading line is one with just one or two trains an hour. Recently I got on it at Gatwick Airport when it arrived. Once we left I went to find a loo and couldn't find one working. I noticed this once I got to Redhill.

By now it got to the stage where if I go I'd have to catch the next train. As I was with someone else I decided to chance it. It was an uncomfortable journey back from there to Guildford. Of course had the guard said something about the toilets, I'd have gone at Gatwick Airport.

If the guard didn't know, then their response to me telling them the loos were not working sounded like they did. No announcement about the loos at anytime after I spoke to them though.

I'd also be concerned that if I did use a station loo and they had a look break, I'd get left behind. I can be slower on the loo.

I admit this isn't the same as trying to board a train without a guard but it can still be an issue for people. Good job I've never got stuck on a train for hours without a loo or working loo.

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The point is was making was able bodied person can get on both 377 stock with toilet or 313 stock without toilets and doesn't need assistance to get on. If the able bodied person travelling on a 313 was desperate it is much easier for them to get off and find somewhere to relieve themselves. I don't necessarily mean a station loo, many stations have pubs in close proximity.
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Sorry if discussed before but Thameslink and Southern drivers already operate DOO on inner city routes such as the Wimbledon loop and Metro. I would have thought the platforms on these are busier than the Oxted, Arun Valley and Coastway East and West routes.

 

[speedy_sticks]

The point is was making was able bodied person can get on both 377 stock with toilet or 313 stock without toilets and doesn't need assistance to get on. If the able bodied person travelling on a 313 was desperate it is much easier for them to get off and find somewhere to relieve themselves. I don't necessarily mean a station loo, many stations have pubs in close proximity.
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Sorry if discussed before but Thameslink and Southern drivers already operate DOO on inner city routes such as the Wimbledon loop and Metro. I would have thought the platforms on these are busier than the Oxted, Arun Valley and Coastway East and West routes.

There is also alot less staffing at these stations, I am also pretty sure the London DOO routes get extra funding for staff on platforms by TfL?

 

[infobleep]

Well with any luck the team that responds to emails is reading the RMT releases and learning lessons as the RMT releases might be garbage and missing the point but they are a lot better than any response you get to an email sent to Southern!

Southerns response to emails is just dreadful, they never answer the question in any shape or form.
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But it is political as it is the government deciding Southern should go to DOO!
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Presumably under the new scheme what happens is a disabled person requiring the ramp turns up at the station. The train arrives, and they move right up to the doors awaiting the guard or OBS to deploy the ramp.

There isnt one on board, but now the train cant go anywhere as the driver cant close the doors safely! So driver needs to walk down the train to speak to the disabled person and explain why they cant travel, and presumably help them arrange alternative transport.

Incidentally there's a lot in the thread about dispatch, we seem to have forgotten about the benefits of 2 safety trained staff if there is an incident on route, the ability for the 2nd staff member to try and fix technical issues etc

I'm finding something similar with O2 Twitter team in the last couple of days. At least they have a community forum and it's probably harder to dodge questions in that as other customers can comment.

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[ainsworth74]

There is also alot less staffing at these stations, I am also pretty sure the London DOO routes get extra funding for staff on platforms by TfL?

I have a feeling when London Overground when fully DOO the stations were already all staffed.

 

[infobleep]

Information is for information, I think a disabled customer stranded at a station qualifies as a good enough reason to hit the emergency button.

What about someone who isn't disabled but potentially stuck for 2 hours due to cancelled train? For clarification there are other trains passing through in between run by the same company but they are not scheduled to stop. This is a real life example.

Should the use the emergency button or information button?

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The point is was making was able bodied person can get on both 377 stock with toilet or 313 stock without toilets and doesn't need assistance to get on. If the able bodied person travelling on a 313 was desperate it is much easier for them to get off and find somewhere to relieve themselves. I don't necessarily mean a station loo, many stations have pubs in close proximity.
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Sorry if discussed before but Thameslink and Southern drivers already operate DOO on inner city routes such as the Wimbledon loop and Metro. I would have thought the platforms on these are busier than the Oxted, Arun Valley and Coastway East and West routes.

Well not all country stations have pubs near by and how is one to know where these pubs are? Southern don't publish a list of near by toilets. I wouldn't be keen to get off the trip to hunt for a loo when I desperately need a loo and they have locked out the station loos.

Wouosnr be so bad if they had a disable station loo that wasn't locked out Hut I find they get locked too! For avoidance of doubt, I have a key to open disabled loos but doesn't work if they lock them with another key or they are behind another locked door.

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[Xenophon PCDGS]

I'm not sure that would be legal unless DOO is actually being actively introduced (i.e. that there is an actual dispute rather than a possible one in the future). I am not an expert on Trade Union law/disputes so someone might be able to confirm one way or the other but my gut feeling is if, for example, ALSEF and the RMT balloted for strike action on Northern right now I'm not sure it would be legal.

I am sure that the union's legal advisors would put the exact legal position to the management of the union.

Let all concerned remember that not so very long ago, the legal advisors to a rail union made it clear to the union concerned that to call for industrial action against a TOC who had yet to be awarded the new franchise was not lawful, as industrial action cannot be taken against a TOC that is not yet in the position of being awarded the franchise.

 

[bb21]

But astonishingly the plan then goes on to allow GTR to inflict more misery on passengers by increasing the “Default performance level” for train cancellations by a third from 2.01% of train services in the original franchise agreement to a maximum of 2.75% in the new agreement over the coming months. The Default performance level will also continue to allow for more trains to be cancelled under the new agreement compared to the original franchise agreement.

I am literally speechless at how cushy they have it at GTR.

If they are struggling to meet a benchmark of 2% then they really do deserve to have the franchise stripped imo. Our default level cancellation benchmark is way under even half that.

I know some aspects of their SLA don't actually work, but they bid for the franchise so they need to deliver.

 

[HH]

There is also alot less staffing at these stations, I am also pretty sure the London DOO routes get extra funding for staff on platforms by TfL?

Where did you get that idea? TfL staffs its own stations (LO), but I'm not aware of it funding any staff elsewhere - it's certainly not standard practise.

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If they are struggling to meet a benchmark of 2% then they really do deserve to have the franchise stripped imo. Our default level cancellation benchmark is way under even half that.

The 2% is the default level, not the benchmark level. That means if they go over the 2% they had put up a remedial plan to DfT.

I cannot recall DfT ever changing the benchmarks in such a manner previously, but perhaps someone else can?

 

[spangles]

There is also alot less staffing at these stations, I am also pretty sure the London DOO routes get extra funding for staff on platforms by TfL?

There are plenty of stations on the metro which are driver dispatch (ie no platform staff). South Bermondsey, Queens Road Peckham, Peckham Rye, East Dulwich, North Dulwich and pretty much every station on that line down to West Croydon or Wimbledon.

These are some of the busiest stations on the network and in the peak I think it's upto 10 cars.

 

[bb21]

The 2% is the default level, not the benchmark level. That means if they go over the 2% they had put up a remedial plan to DfT.

I cannot recall DfT ever changing the benchmarks in such a manner previously, but perhaps someone else can?

Yeah I know. For some reason we've always called it the default level benchmark, and all four of them with the word benchmark included, eg. "improvement plan benchmark". Maybe that's the wrong way of using the word.

Still, my point is that they have it cushy, and have a default level over double that of ours, and increased yet again. We've only had minor adjustments over time as far as I can see.

 

[BestWestern]

The increase in sick days is easily explained, and it isn't the fault of the staff.

By refusing to pay anybody sick pay without a sicknote, GTR have pushed staff into a ludicrous position where they risk losing money unless they stay off long enough to get an appointment and a note from their GP. For many, an appointment might take a week or more. And some GPs won't issue notes for short bouts of illness, due to the fact that that self certification is the accepted norm for up to a week for most people. Therefore, if you have sickness bug, a thumping cold, a bout of food poisoning or any other medical issue which generally lasts only a few days, if you simply return to work at the earliest opportunity you will end up losing several days' pay. Your only other option is to make it last long enough to get to see the Doc, and then claim for the week's sick pay.

Given the current situation, who in their right mind would return early and lose money in order to 'do the right thing' for GTR?! Another farce from the Great Train Robbers...

 

[Chrisgr31]

I keep reading again and again in GTR literature ... That all gated stations will be staffed from 'first to last' but then when you read the hours of the 'proposed' station hosts these don't match. Mornings are better with maybe up to 30 mins short before staffing but the evenings can be as long as 3hrs ... I wonder if GTR are planning on 'non' station host staff during these times ?:roll:

Maybe the gates will be open I. The times when there are no staff, so effectively it is not a gated station!

 

[HH]

The increase in sick days is easily explained, and it isn't the fault of the staff.

By refusing to pay anybody sick pay without a sicknote, GTR have pushed staff into a ludicrous position where they risk losing money unless they stay off long enough to get an appointment and a note from their GP. For many, an appointment might take a week or more. And some GPs won't issue notes for short bouts of illness, due to the fact that that self certification is the accepted norm for up to a week for most people. Therefore, if you have sickness bug, a thumping cold, a bout of food poisoning or any other medical issue which generally lasts only a few days, if you simply return to work at the earliest opportunity you will end up losing several days' pay. Your only other option is to make it last long enough to get to see the Doc, and then claim for the week's sick pay.

Given the current situation, who in their right mind would return early and lose money in order to 'do the right thing' for GTR?! Another farce from the Great Train Robbers...

Excellent point. Could they be clever enough to know this would happen and deliberately provoke it?

 

[craigy68]

Maybe the gates will be open I. The times when there are no staff, so effectively it is not a gated station!

They have published which stations will be manned from first to last with a station host, but when you read the timings they fall well short of first to last.

 

[John R]

The increase in sick days is easily explained, and it isn't the fault of the staff.

By refusing to pay anybody sick pay without a sicknote, GTR have pushed staff into a ludicrous position where they risk losing money unless they stay off long enough to get an appointment and a note from their GP. For many, an appointment might take a week or more. And some GPs won't issue notes for short bouts of illness, due to the fact that that self certification is the accepted norm for up to a week for most people. Therefore, if you have sickness bug, a thumping cold, a bout of food poisoning or any other medical issue which generally lasts only a few days, if you simply return to work at the earliest opportunity you will end up losing several days' pay. Your only other option is to make it last long enough to get to see the Doc, and then claim for the week's sick pay.

Given the current situation, who in their right mind would return early and lose money in order to 'do the right thing' for GTR?! Another farce from the Great Train Robbers...

Out of interest, was this change introduced before or after the increase in sickness rates. If it was before then I buy the argument. If it was introduced as a response to a sharp rise in sickness then I could understand the rationale for it being, "we think this sickness increase is quasi-industrial action by the back door, so we are going to clamp down on it by not paying you unless you have a GP note".

 

[craigybagel]

Out of interest, was this change introduced before or after the increase in sickness rates. If it was before then I buy the argument. If it was introduced as a response to a sharp rise in sickness then I could understand the rationale for it being, "we think this sickness increase is quasi-industrial action by the back door, so we are going to clamp down on it by not paying you unless you have a GP note".

It was introduced just before the first strike, along with the other punishments (withdrawal of passes and so on).
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There are plenty of stations on the metro which are driver dispatch (ie no platform staff). South Bermondsey, Queens Road Peckham, Peckham Rye, East Dulwich, North Dulwich and pretty much every station on that line down to West Croydon or Wimbledon.

These are some of the busiest stations on the network and in the peak I think it's upto 10 cars.

Unmanned for dispatch yes, but still staffed for other purposes. For passengers who require assistance that's a big difference.

 

[Goldfish62]

Where did you get that idea? TfL staffs its own stations (LO), but I'm not aware of it funding any staff elsewhere - it's certainly not standard practise.

TfL provided funded to the previous Southern franchise for staffing of all London stations throughout the operational day. I have no idea if this was carried forward to the current franchise.

 

[cjmillsnun]

Out of interest, was this change introduced before or after the increase in sickness rates. If it was before then I buy the argument. If it was introduced as a response to a sharp rise in sickness then I could understand the rationale for it being, "we think this sickness increase is quasi-industrial action by the back door, so we are going to clamp down on it by not paying you unless you have a GP note".

If you look through the thread you will find the first of the disgraceful notes from GTR to their conductors that lists everything that gets taken away from them if they go on strike. Sick pay without a doctors note is one of them. Although I believe this may actually be illegal as Statutory Sick Pay would be payable with self certification after 3 days.

 

[AntoniC]

I *dont* think its illegal, because in the past my employer (A civil service department) has withdrawn my right to self certify my sickness and insisted that I produce a sick note for a 1 day sick absence.

I had to pay for the note, and claim it back from my employer.

An employer can refuse to pay Statutory Sick Pay (SSP) once your entitlement has run out , BUT they can state that the first day will be unpaid.

(Not sure if they have to change your contract first though).

 

[speedy_sticks]

VERY BIG difference!

Bare in mind when OBS comes in, there will be very little or NO staff at stations to help with wheelchair ramps.

It was introduced just before the first strike, along with the other punishments (withdrawal of passes and so on).
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Unmanned for dispatch yes, but still staffed for other purposes. For passengers who require assistance that's a big difference.

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Out of interest, was this change introduced before or after the increase in sickness rates. If it was before then I buy the argument. If it was introduced as a response to a sharp rise in sickness then I could understand the rationale for it being, "we think this sickness increase is quasi-industrial action by the back door, so we are going to clamp down on it by not paying you unless you have a GP note".

Sharp wise of sickness claims are nonsense as I know that Southern didn't allow strikers overtime until 23rd March.
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Do you have a link?

Also, the dumb thing is that my local station in Crawley, the platform staff in the morning come to start their shift by coming in by TRAIN!

They have published which stations will be manned from first to last with a station host, but when you read the timings they fall well short of first to last.

 

[infobleep]

They have published which stations will be manned from first to last with a station host, but when you read the timings they fall well short of first to last.

May be they will change the train timetable to match! So earlier finishing tines and later start tines.

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[BestWestern]

Out of interest, was this change introduced before or after the increase in sickness rates. If it was before then I buy the argument. If it was introduced as a response to a sharp rise in sickness then I could understand the rationale for it being, "we think this sickness increase is quasi-industrial action by the back door, so we are going to clamp down on it by not paying you unless you have a GP note".

Part of GTR's campaign of bullying and intimidation.

 

[infobleep]

Looking at the online Redhill departure board today, I see that only one train has been cancelled due to shortage of train crew. It doesn't say if it's a driver or guard.

I wouldn't call that major disruption that warrants a general note about service disruption. If it does then I can think of many other situations where a general note is required but Southern don't bother to put such a thing up!

Also I note that the general disruption note doesn't appear on the Clapham Junction online departure board, despite Southern running services from there. Perhaps they feel not enough trains are disrupted but if that's the case then I'd say Redhill is not disrupted enough today.

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Here's an issue that Southern haven't put a general note up about but should do, given it's probably causing as much disruption as the shortage of guards. Double standards by Southern? To be expected.

Interesting how the train left 37 minutes late from Victoria but only a minute late from East Croydon. I doubt we can blame Southern management for that though.

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[HH]

TfL provided funded to the previous Southern franchise for staffing of all London stations throughout the operational day. I have no idea if this was carried forward to the current franchise.

Interesting. They have done similar in the past, but only when they were about to take over the lines. They certainly weren't funding FCC. Given that they're about to lose their government subsidy, I wonder whether they can afford to continue this largesse going forward?

 

[sarahj]

From what I hear from the depot that was mostly affected by sickness, most are now back at work. However, with rest day cover still being a 'mess', interesting to see how long they keep up the current announcements.

Anyway, perhaps all is not lost. Check out this message that someone found in a shop window. Are we saved?

 

[craigy68]

[/QUOTE]Also, the dumb thing is that my local station in Crawley, the platform staff in the morning come to start their shift by coming in by TRAIN![/QUOTE]

Same will apply at my station for Station Host ... So by the time security checks are done, set up host 'counter' etc that's another 20 mins gone :roll:

 

[HLE]

From what I hear from the depot that was mostly affected by sickness, most are now back at work. However, with rest day cover still being a 'mess', interesting to see how long they keep up the current announcements.

Anyway, perhaps all is not lost. Check out this message that someone found in a shop window. Are we saved?

If only......kudos to whoever put that up though!

 

[infobleep]

From what I hear from the depot that was mostly affected by sickness, most are now back at work. However, with rest day cover still being a 'mess', interesting to see how long they keep up the current announcements.

Anyway, perhaps all is not lost. Check out this message that someone found in a shop window. Are we saved?

That would be fitting for a Rory Bremner show. The political comedian.

On a serious note though, some of that info would be great in an RMT press release. Perhaps it's already been in one. I don't remember seeing it though.

Finally at Haywards Heath station today the board said the 7.48 to Victoria was cancelled due to staff shortages. On National Rail Enquiries App live departure board it was due to staff being delayed.

On real train times, the reason is:

This service was cancelled throughout due to a planning error (TI).

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/W70054/2016/05/31/advanced

Perhaps it's a mixture of all three! I suspect a lot of issues are due to long term planning errors in staffing numbers but that doesn't sound as good as driver and conductor sickness.

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