From £2.90 to £770.78

[AnaS.C.]

On the 4th February I was stopped in Sunbury station by a Ticket Inspector because my ticket wasn’t valid for that station. I explained that I had purchased a zones 3-6 travelcard because I believed that Sunbury was still part of zone 6, as it Feltham. I had just started a new job in Wimbledon and had only been commuting daily for 2 weeks.

Two other passengers were stopped but only I was held for over half an hour for questioning. It seems that when the Ticket Inspector referred to some of my rights he forgot to mention that I was free to leave after providing my contact details. I believed that I had no choice but to stay and answer all of those horrible scripted questions.

My Travelcard was confiscated. It was the 2nd day I had used it and I still had 5 more days to use it. The Ticket Inspector provided me a receipt to contact a telephone number and request for a refund. He said he believed there “might” have been an offence and I was never told about any appeal process.

On the 16th February I managed to overcome part of the shock and humiliation and decided to forward a complaint to South West Trains. None of the other 2 passengers went through the same torturous questioning as I did and one of them was even simply told to “make sure she bought the right ticket” at the other platform. Since I couldn’t understand these double standards I decided to explain this situation to South West Trains’ Customer Service Centre.

I received a reply on the 31st March simply mentioned the ‘Buy before board’ service, and with regards to the Ticket Inspector’s conduct since it is an internal matter I will never know of the outcome of the investigation. I replied saying that that was not satisfactory and that the Ticket Inspector would have given me details on how to dispute the Penalty Fare. Then they referred to the IRCAS if I wanted to appeal the decision.

I also tried to contact the number mentioned on the receipt but I was told that I would have to ask elsewhere as that number was only used to buy tickets, and not refunds.

In the meantime I received a letter from SW Trains Prosecutions department saying there was enough evidence to prosecute me for fare evasion. They gave me 2 options: settle with them out of Court by paying £91.60 (£11.60 fares avoided plus “£80 operational and administrative costs), or go to Court.
I forwarded my complaint to Transport Focus, which then sent it to London Travelwatch as this occurred out of the area they cover. London Travelwatch then contacted SW Trains’ Prosecution Deparment that agreed to review my case. I asked if I would have to pay the fine in the meantime and the reply was that I did not need to worry about anything and just wait for SW Trains reply.

The reply arrived around 20th April. It was an “invitation” for me to attend a second Interview to clarify what had happened on that day (only regarding the train ticket, not all of the other weird things that happened). “Invitation” = attending the interview or going to Court.
There was no mention to extra administrative/operational costs.

I attended the Interview on the 5th May and from the very begging my rights were made very clear (for the first time!). Two and a half hours of questioning, and I even handed extra evidence to show that I had not always been purchasing the wrong tickets. It was just that day because I purchased the ticket at Wimbledon Stations ticket vending machines. I was requested to forward my previous employment contracts to prove that I was working in areas that didn’t require me to commute daily by train. I did that the same day (5th May) and received no reply until I got a new letter from the Prosecutions Department.

On that letter (dated 18th May) the Prosecutions Office was still saying that there was enough evidence to prosecute me and giving me the same 2 options, being that this time they ask for £770.78 (£10 avoided fares plus £610.78 operational and administrative costs).

I contacted them and I was told that there were no notes regarding my contracts. So my email was either not received, or ignore (I did not receive anything bounced back). The only reply I had was a vague one saying it was added to the case, but only after I forwarded it again, after receiving the second letter with the absurd amount.

In short:
• South West Trains are chasing me for £10 fares avoided (one single ticket between Hampton and Sunbury is £2.90, but they are also charging for the other times I had used the Travelcard);
• South West Trains confiscated a ticket that was still valid for 5 more days. That ticket was worth over £30.
• I was not fully informed of my rights on the day of the incident (including how to appeal) and I was handed a worthless receipt for a refund nobody ever replied to me about (it was ignore by Customer Relations on both replies);
• I am now being charged an absurd amount for operational and administrative costs that aren’t published anywhere (wasn’t able to find anything on google or SW Trains website);
• I was never told of the costs/consequences of the case being reviewed;
• London Travelwatch says they can no longer be involved as the case is with SW Trains Prosecutions Department;
• Someone either ignored an email with evidence that could result in a different outcome to the case;


Is it just me, or did MANY things go wrong with my case??? Can they charge anything they want to review the case? Who else can I go to? IRCAS? Or should I just pay and try to get a refund through the Customer Relations Centre?

Please help

 

[miami]

The first thing to go wrong with your case was that you really cocked up by not paying the £90 up front. You then gave them more evidence about a pattern of not paying the fare.

It doesn't look like they gave you a penalty fare.

What are they planning to prosecute you under, the railway bylaws or the regulation of the railways act 1889? It wouldn't surprise me if they would go for the more serious fare evasion prosecution which carries a criminal sentence, rather than the bylaws. Did you offer to pay the fare due at any point?

From what I can see in your post, a prosecution under at least the bylaws will succeed, and the cost can only go up.

For your points:

• South West Trains are chasing me for £10 fares avoided (one single ticket between Hampton and Sunbury is £2.90, but they are also charging for the other times I had used the Travelcard);

They could chase you for 5p and still be right (regardless of how silly it seems)

• South West Trains confiscated a ticket that was still valid for 5 more days. That ticket was worth over £30.

As they should do as they suspected you were misusing the ticket, that's in the terms and conditions of the ticket when you paid for it.

• I was not fully informed of my rights on the day of the incident (including how to appeal) and I was handed a worthless receipt for a refund nobody ever replied to me about (it was ignore by Customer Relations on both replies);

I don't believe they gave you a penalty fare, they simply said they may be in touch. At that point there was nothing to appeal. The receipt means that later if you were exonerated (say your ticket was actually valid) you could (hopefully - train companies aren't perfect) claim back the replacement cost.

• I am now being charged an absurd amount for operational and administrative costs that aren’t published anywhere (wasn’t able to find anything on google or SW Trains website);

It doesn't seem absurd to me. Investigations cost money.

• I was never told of the costs/consequences of the case being reviewed;

It's a shame you didn't come to this forum at this point

• London Travelwatch says they can no longer be involved as the case is with SW Trains Prosecutions Department;

This is way beyond poor customer service.

• Someone either ignored an email with evidence that could result in a different outcome to the case;

Sounds like your email backed up what they originally believed - you'd only avoided paying about £10 in fares. Had you been doing this for a year they'd be looking at a far higher amount.

If you plan to fight this more I suggest getting legal advice.

 

[island]

South West Trains has not acted incorrectly. In particular, it is not obliged to:

• Treat all passengers who don't pay the correct fare in the same manner
• Research for you where your ticket is and is not valid
• Specifically tell you that you are free to leave and not answer questions – but if you had asked, the officer would not have been permitted to lie
• Explain to you the basis of its settlement offer
• Explain to you the consequences of choosing not to accept a settlement offer
• Give you a "right to appeal" when you have not been issued a Penalty Fare
• Return to you a ticket that was being used otherwise than in accordance with its validity – tickets remain the property of the railway
• Tell you whether and what action it may or may not have taken against a member of its staff in response to your complaint

Also, Sunbury has never been in the London zones.

I note you chose not to accept the initial settlement of just under £100 and instead to dispute the matter further, as you were entitled to do. One of the consequences of that choice is that extra effort has been put into your case, which you're being invited to pay for. You can choose not to pay the current settlement as well, in which case you will probably be prosecuted. The costs payable would then be likely to increase, and when convicted you would additionally become liable to pay a fine of up to £1,000 per offence.

 

[Chew Chew]

Has anyone read the blog the OP has started on this?

"Ticket Nazis", "terribly strong South Asian accent", "Is it because I am a foreigner?", "they may have humiliated me, treated me like a criminal but they will not silence me!"

Tagged with "abuse".

It is like playing "The bad railwayman" bingo.

 

[miami]

Has anyone read the blog the OP has started on this?

"Ticket Nazis", "terribly strong South Asian accent", "Is it because I am a foreigner?", "they may have humiliated me, treated me like a criminal but they will not silence me!"

Tagged with "abuse".

It is like playing "The bad railwayman" bingo.

Don't forget "traumatic experience", and a "ridiculous" tag. Complaints about the inspectors "strong South Asian accent" too.

Full of worrying statements too. He thinks this is a "penalty fare case" - I don't see any evidence of that. He says "If it ever happens to you, these people that are dressed up the same way as real police officers CANNOT hold you against your will" - I believe they can hold you long enough to get your name and address?

I am surprised that he wasn't just given a penalty fare though.

 

[Tetchytyke]

I am surprised that he wasn't just given a penalty fare though.

Judging by the hyperbole and the comments about the RPI's ethnicity, I'm guessing that this charming individual quite spectacularly failed the attitude test.

 

[7031]

Judging by the hyperbole and the comments about the RPI's ethnicity, I'm guessing that this charming individual quite spectacularly failed the attitude test.

Definitely seems like it. From what I've seen, guards are fairly aware that it's a commonly made mistake and will apply their discretion if they think it's a genuine mistake.

That and honestly, the settlement they offered originally genuinely seems very reasonable to me - I've seen much, much higher rates quoted. In all honesty I think it would've been much better to just pay it and then apply for a partial refund of the season ticket if they think they were due one.

 

[island]

Don't forget "traumatic experience", and a "ridiculous" tag. Complaints about the inspectors "strong South Asian accent" too.

Full of worrying statements too. He thinks this is a "penalty fare case" - I don't see any evidence of that. He says "If it ever happens to you, these people that are dressed up the same way as real police officers CANNOT hold you against your will" - I believe they can hold you long enough to get your name and address?

Officers of railway companies are allowed to detain passengers who have not paid their fare or do not present or deliver up their tickets. In the case of all train companies of whose procedures I am aware, they are instructed not to exercise this power under any circumstances.

I am surprised that he wasn't just given a penalty fare though.

Miseryrail and some other TOCs might have dealt with this by means of a Penalty Fare, but SWT tends to take a harder line against passengers whom it believes to be engaged in using a season ticket that covers only a subset of their journeys, and it is entitled to do so.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Has anyone read the blog the OP has started on this?

"Ticket Nazis", "terribly strong South Asian accent", "Is it because I am a foreigner?", "they may have humiliated me, treated me like a criminal but they will not silence me!"

Tagged with "abuse".

It is like playing "The bad railwayman" bingo.

And funny that a criminal complains about being treated like a criminal too.

 

[anme]

And funny that a criminal complains about being treated like a criminal too.

It's a shame members forget that this forum is intended to help people.

To the OP: as I see it, you have two choices. You can pay the settlement offered by SWT now, or you can let them decide whether to take you to court. I guess they will decide to so. Speaking frankly, based on what I've read on these forums and given that you did not have a valid ticket, I expect they would win.

You would then have to pay a fine, plus the cost of the tickets, some other charges, and probably SWT's costs. I can't comment on whether that will come to as much as 770 pounds. Regarding costs, it will be up to SWT to convince the court and 770 pounds is a lot, but considering the case was re-opened at your request, it might not be unrealistic (and you have to add their costs in actually prosecuting you).

Depending on the legislation you are prosecuted under, you might receive a criminal record. This will depend a bit on what you said in the various interviews. Do you know exactly what offence SWT are treating this as?

My advice would be to put aside your anger, and take a realistic look at the best way forward from the current position.

BTW, I think London Travelwatch gave you bad advice, but that's a matter to take up with them, not SWT. And if you believe current laws on railway ticketing are unfair, or are unhappy with the way ticketless travel is investigated, you could take it up with your MP.

 

[crehld]

It's a shame members forget that this forum is intended to help people.

It is indeed. Therefore to help the OP I respectfully suggest a drastic change in their attitude is required to actually start to address this matter in a constructive way. You're frustrated, angry and upset, but this isn't going to solve the matter; if anything it'll make it worse.

anme's advice seems sound, so I see no point in needless repetition. But regarding the matter of the proposed cost of the settlement, you might like to have a look at this thread where another poster is being offered a similarly high amount. In particular, this post by DaveNewcastle. The cases are of course different, but there are some parallels to be drawn regarding the sum of the out of court settlement.

 

[najaB]

I can't comment on whether that will come to as much as 770 pounds.

It easily could exceed £770 in total since there will be the fare, fine, victim surcharge and costs to consider.

 

[island]

It's also worth the OP remembering that as a foreigner, a criminal conviction may damage future prospects of remaining in the UK, particularly if a non-EU national.

 

[Stigy]

Officers of railway companies are allowed to detain passengers who have not paid their fare or do not present or deliver up their tickets. In the case of all train companies of whose procedures I am aware, they are instructed not to exercise this power under any circumstances.

Only until they supply a name and address, and the RRA is very specific about this.

Two other passengers were stopped but only I was held for over half an hour for questioning. It seems that when the Ticket Inspector referred to some of my rights he forgot to mention that I was free to leave after providing my contact details. I believed that I had no choice but to stay and answer all of those horrible scripted questions.

Are you sure? It's a requirement of PACE once details have been obtained, to caution a suspect and advise them they're not under arrest and are free to leave at any time. Or maybe you didn't hear this part?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

It easily could exceed £770 in total since there will be the fare, fine, victim surcharge and costs to consider.

The fare, fine, victim surcharge and costs is unlikely to amount to £770. I'll refer to the advice I gave the other poster in that if you can handle a conviction, it's probably the cheaper alternative to paying the settlement figure.Even a conviction under the Regulation of Railways Act 1889, for a single journey, is likely to amount to a fine of around £400, £40 victims surcharge, £10 compensation (ticket cost) and a contribution to SWT's costs, which ordinarily will be around £100, and I doubt even with the extra costs incurred, they'd get more than £200 in this case.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Yes, I am angry and upset because since the first interview I said I was willing to answer any questions to explain I really didn't meant to evade any fares. I honestly thought that by cooperating and providing any proof there would be nothing to fear.

I don't want to sound like I'm twisting things here, so apologies if that's how it comes across, but in the statement I highlighted, it very much sounds as if you WERE told you could leave, but were WILLING to stick around.

 

[AnaS.C.]

Thank you all for your comments.

It's really a pity that I didn't find out about this Forum earlier, as I would definitely have gone for the first settlement offer.

I admit that I am upset and angry, but it's because I honestly believed cooperating and answering any questions and providing whatever they needed to prove that I did not intend to avoid any fares. And this week I found out that my employment history was only attached after they sent me the second letter with the higher settlement offer. I sent it, as requested, the same day we had the second interview and also offered to provide any extra evidence or get one of my former colleagues to provide a statement to prove that we were carpooling in my previous employment.

When London Travelwatch said the Prosecutions Department would review my case I asked if I had to worry about any payments in the meantime and was told I did not need to worry. So the really high extra charges did come as a surprise. Yes, these things may cost money, but does aren't we supposed to know beforehand what the costs are for a service we will have to pay once it's been provided?

And I do apologise if I offended anyone but as someone that works in Customer Services one thing my clients expect from me is that I make myself very clear. I am sorry but I don't think a robotic, scripted speech helps in a situation where someone in front of you is confused and crying, and it is normal that with a strong accent maybe there is a higher barrier to communication? If my clients don't understand me it is up to me to make sure that as a service provider I make sure there is clear communication. So, as a passenger, I expect the same from South West Trains.

And in terms of atitude the only thing that happened on the day of the incident was when I started listening to the classic "you have the right to remain silent...court of law" I just broke down crying because I didn't understand why I was still there going through questioning and why would a first time offence be able to get you to court.

As for the offence, the letters state that there was evidence to prosecute me "for an offence or offences committed under the Railway Byelaws or Regulations Act 1889".

I am going to speak with SW Trains Prosecution Office tomorrow and probably the outcome will be to accept the settlement offer to avoid things getting any worse.

I just wish the Transport Companies would be subject to the same standards and type of regulations as are many other service providers. Or at least that all the information is easily accessible and that one wouldn't get different answers from different sources.

Thanks again to all for your thoughts and help put things in perspective. This forum should be considered public service (if it is not already)!

 

[najaB]

The fare, fine, victim surcharge and costs is unlikely to amount to £770. I'll refer to the advice I gave the other poster in that if you can handle a conviction, it's probably the cheaper alternative to paying the settlement figure.Even a conviction under the Regulation of Railways Act 1889, for a single journey, is likely to amount to a fine of around £400, £40 victims surcharge, £10 compensation (ticket cost) and a contribution to SWT's costs, which ordinarily will be around £100, and I doubt even with the extra costs incurred, they'd get more than £200 in this case.

I'm not as confident as you that the total amount would be less than £770, given that a significant portion of the costs incurred were due to the OP's declining an earlier offer.

Even if we assume that your assumptions are correct, is it worth a recordable conviction to 'save' £220?

 

[miami]

The fare, fine, victim surcharge and costs is unlikely to amount to £770. I'll refer to the advice I gave the other poster in that if you can handle a conviction, it's probably the cheaper alternative to paying the settlement figure.

As a foreigner, even if he's from the EU with the Brexit vote looming, avoiding a conviction would seem sensible.

Perhaps there's a chance at humble pie negotiation to bring the settlement down from £700, assuming a major change in attitude now he's been informed of the error of his ways.

There is a separate issue of RPIs ignoring mouthy teenagers and instead choosing to "make an example of people in suits", but that's not something for the poster to mention at this stage.

 

[Stigy]

I'm not as confident as you that the total amount would be less than £770, given that a significant portion of the costs incurred were due to the OP's declining an earlier offer.

Even if we assume that your assumptions are correct, is it worth a recordable conviction to 'save' £220?

I agree that it's a risky business, and of course, even a £200 saving isn't necessarily that significant when you factor in a possible conviction.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

There is a separate issue of RPIs ignoring mouthy teenagers and instead choosing to "make an example of people in suits", but that's not something for the poster to mention at this stage.

Some do, but let's not tar all with the same brush. Although not in revenue protection, my role isn't a million miles off. I for one target the youths causing other issues on the railway. It's also worth bearing in mind that some of the most well dressed business types are the most prolific fare evaders, so one also has to be consistent in their approach, too.

The reason I target those committing other offences, is largely because more professional fare evasion committed by a lot of otherwise very law abiding citizens often takes more resources and investigation to prove (such as these second interviews), which is the revenue protection departments bread and butter after all, and my role is more rounded to take other crimes in to account, not just ticket matters.

 

[philthetube]

If you do attempt to get the settlement reduced, if you have any evidence of what travelwatch said to you, include it.

 

[Panda]

I asked if I would have to pay the fine in the meantime and the reply was that I did not need to worry about anything and just wait for SW Trains reply.

From everything you have posted, apart from your own mistake, this is probably the only other mistake that was made here . I suggest you find a solid way to prove that you were told this (hopefully this was in writing)?

I suspect that you didn't do yourself any favours by complaining about the treatment of other passengers, when you don't know anything about their circumstances.

The other issue I have here is the fact that you must have travelled from home (Sunbury) to Wimbledon to buy the travelcard. What ticket did you use for this and is there really an honest explanation for not attempting to buy it at Sunbury - I ask this, because it would have had to happen twice as you said you were doing this for two weeks.

I find it hard to think of a circumstance where you would buy a single ticket to get yourself to a place where you could buy the wrong ticket...twice.

 

[miami]

The other issue I have here is the fact that you must have travelled from home (Sunbury) to Wimbledon to buy the travelcard. What ticket did you use for this and is there really an honest explanation for not attempting to buy it at Sunbury - I ask this, because it would have had to happen twice as you said you were doing this for two weeks.

I thought this, however Wikipedia says Sunbury is poorly staffed and has long queues for the ticket machines. As such I wondered whether the first time he bought a weekly from Sunbury and it was fine, Sunbury to Zone 4.

Then later that week he bought a Zone 4-6 travelcard to start on the following Monday at Wimbledon, presumably the ticket machine wouldn't give a Sunbury-Zone4 travelcard, where as zone 4-6 is probably on the first page.

Alternatively can weekly paper travelcards still be bought at newsagents?

 

[anme]

I thought this, however Wikipedia says Sunbury is poorly staffed and has long queues for the ticket machines. As such I wondered whether the first time he bought a weekly from Sunbury and it was fine, Sunbury to Zone 4.

Then later that week he bought a Zone 4-6 travelcard to start on the following Monday at Wimbledon, presumably the ticket machine wouldn't give a Sunbury-Zone4 travelcard, where as zone 4-6 is probably on the first page.

This was the explanation I had in mind.
The ticket office at Sunbury and the ticket office (or machine) are likely to sell you different things if you ask for a "seven day zones 4-6 travelcard, please".

 

[island]

A zone 4-6 Travelcard is valid at neither Sunbury nor Wimbledon.

 

[anme]

A zone 4-6 Travelcard is valid at neither Sunbury nor Wimbledon.

Obviously, but if you ask for a seven day zones 4-6 travelcard at Sunbury, you will likely be sold a *Sunbury to* zones 4-6 travelcard.

About Wimbledon, that's my mistake. Of course, Wimbledon is in zone 3 and the OP clearly stated that they had a zones 3-6 travelcard.

 

[bb21]

Obviously, but if you ask for a seven day zones 4-6 travelcard at Sunbury, you will likely be sold a *Sunbury to* zones 4-6 travelcard.

Has anyone tested this or is this conjecture?

 

[anme]

Has anyone tested this or is this conjecture?

Entirely conjecture as far as Sunbury, zones 3-6 and seven day tickets are concerned. However, if I went to the ticket office at Crewe and asked for return to Liverpool, I guess they would sell me a ticket starting at Crewe without asking for confirmation.

Anyway, just speculation on why confusion might occur. It's not directed at the OP (so arguably doesn't belong in this thread).

 

[bb21]

Entirely conjecture as far as Sunbury, zones 3-6 and seven day tickets are concerned. However, if I went to the ticket office at Crewe and asked for return to Liverpool, I guess they would sell me a ticket starting at Crewe without asking for confirmation.

Anyway, just speculation on why confusion might occur. It's not directed at the OP (so arguably doesn't belong in this thread).

The only reason I ask is that this fare you mentioned is rare to be sold at ticket machines, so I wonder whether a TVM would be able to sell it at all. Seeing that there is no ticket office in the afternoon, I do wonder what happens to people who want to purchase such a ticket normally.

 

[Jonfun]

Obviously, but if you ask for a seven day zones 4-6 travelcard at Sunbury, you will likely be sold a *Sunbury to* zones 4-6 travelcard.

Really? If I went to a ticket office and asked to buy a travelcard, I'd expect to be sold... a travelcard. I've bought travelcards from various stations outside London to save time when I get there and they haven't once tried to sell me a ticket there, too.

 

[TEW]

The only reason I ask is that this fare you mentioned is rare to be sold at ticket machines, so I wonder whether a TVM would be able to sell it at all. Seeing that there is no ticket office in the afternoon, I do wonder what happens to people who want to purchase such a ticket normally.

SWT TVMs can sell most combinations of Travelcard Seasons, I haven't come across one they didn't sell. I'd expect the machine at Sunbury to sell a Sunbury to Zones 3-6 Travelcard 7DS. It may not be immediately obvious how to buy it however.

 

[Paul Kelly]

Really? If I went to a ticket office and asked to buy a travelcard, I'd expect to be sold... a travelcard. I've bought travelcards from various stations outside London to save time when I get there and they haven't once tried to sell me a ticket there, too.

You'd be sold the wrong thing at Reading then, for sure - if you ask for a Travelcard at Reading ticket office you get an out-boundary Travelcard from Reading by default.

 

[cjmillsnun]

Really? If I went to a ticket office and asked to buy a travelcard, I'd expect to be sold... a travelcard. I've bought travelcards from various stations outside London to save time when I get there and they haven't once tried to sell me a ticket there, too.

If you ask for a travelcard at Petersfield, you will be sold a one day travelcard from Petersfield.