Manchester Victoria - Blackpool North

[dunks]

This is Northerns new hourly service which starts on 14th December. It will certainly be a new experience as services last ran this way in May 1989. Once again Victoria will be directly accessible to Chorley, Preston & Blackpool and certainly represents something of a turn-around in Victoria's fortunes aswell as the obvious connectional opportunities.

Maybe its also exposes the Oxford Road corridors biggest flaw -congestion and capacity constraints. Mind you, even with the Windsor Link in place both 4-track approaches from East & West still favour Victoria in terms of capacity (remember its only 2-track from Ordsall lane to Deansgate)and the proposed expansion of Salford Central from 2 to 4 platforms next year will only enhance this further.

As many of you might be aware, Class 180 Intercity DMUs have started arriving at Newton Heath Depot in readiness for use from December - some on this new service.

 

[LilLoaf]

So its 180 on the Blackpool services then. i was expected 150's or 142's that all i thought they had at Newton Heath. Why don't Northern use the 180's on longer distance runs like, York - Blackpool or Leeds - Manchester vicc.

Is the Blackpool service filling in the path of the Buxton- Blackpool service from Salford onwards or is their 2 trains an hour to Blackpool to Manchester one into picc the other in vicc.

when are they doing crew training runs ?

 

[1D53]

So its 180 on the Blackpool services then. i was expected 150's or 142's that all i thought they had at Newton Heath. Why don't Northern use the 180's on longer distance runs like, York - Blackpool or Leeds - Manchester vicc.

Is the Blackpool service filling in the path of the Buxton- Blackpool service from Salford onwards or is their 2 trains an hour to Blackpool to Manchester one into picc the other in vicc.

when are they doing crew training runs ?

This service replaces the old Buxton to Blackpool service. Service now runs Vic to Blackpool and Buxton to Picc, supplemented by a new Hazel Grove to Preston service if I recall correctly. The 180's will not be on all diagrams, mainly the peak ones, other services will be hopefully 156. Crew training on the 180's is ongoing at Newton Heath, most drivers know the route anyway, those who don't are learning it now. The 180's are on there diagrams and not Leeds to Manchester etc due to these new services being mainly Manchester Vic crews, running them Leeds to Manchester would require all Leeds crews and some York crews to learn the stock too, a process which would take months!

 

[LilLoaf]

Cheers JsT, any idea what other routes the 180's will be used on ?

Does the Hazel Grove to Preston go through Piccadilly and Oxford Road then into Salford ?

i thought it was too good to be true 2 services an hour to Blackpool from Manchester. So basically what they are doing is just putting Blackpool train into / out of Victoria and making it out to be a whole new service.

 

[The Snap]

Interesting stuff, I didn't actually think the 180s would come to Northern! Any idea if they're going to be relivered? I hope they are, I'm sick of seeing crappy Northern units with old liveries from TOCs that ended years ago!

 

[Nym]

Cheers JsT, any idea what other routes the 180's will be used on ?

Does the Hazel Grove to Preston go through Piccadilly and Oxford Road then into Salford ?

i thought it was too good to be true 2 services an hour to Blackpool from Manchester. So basically what they are doing is just putting Blackpool train into / out of Victoria and making it out to be a whole new service.

There are, One currently runs to Buxton and the other to MIA, it will soon be one to MIA and t'other to Vic. also another one per hour with a change at preston... (if the Hazel Grove - Bolton services do get extended to preston)

IMO, the should also be using the 180s on the Bolton - Picc corridor, so that would be BOL - HZL, or even the southport - MIA, since atm it is a 4 carrage 150/156, and erm, packed (thats the 0822x BOL) as is the 0832xBOL witch is a 185

 

[furryfeet]

is the 1st class coach in each set going to be declassified, to help with the overcrowding ?

 

[1D53]

Interesting stuff, I didn't actually think the 180s would come to Northern! Any idea if they're going to be relivered? I hope they are, I'm sick of seeing crappy Northern units with old liveries from TOCs that ended years ago!

Only here till 2010 so I would doubt it.

No news on whats happening with the FC carriage yet.

 

[adamp]

Only here till 2010 so I would doubt it.

Is that it......?
Whats the point then? When they go are the services to be stopped?

 

[dunks]

Cheers JsT, any idea what other routes the 180's will be used on ?

Does the Hazel Grove to Preston go through Piccadilly and Oxford Road then into Salford ?

i thought it was too good to be true 2 services an hour to Blackpool from Manchester. So basically what they are doing is just putting Blackpool train into / out of Victoria and making it out to be a whole new service.

My bet is that the unit(s) will be used on the peak hour Blackpool North - Manchester Vic 'Club' service and return.

It would have been nice to see one of the 180's on a S&C run.

 

[djw1981]

In 2010, Northern get back the 7 158 units which are currently on sublease to FSR.

This equals an extra 14 carriages. also FGW are giving up their 14x's in 2009, and the LM 150's are available but I can't remember if they are going to FGW or Northern, or elsewhere.

 

[Guinness]

Interesting stuff, I didn't actually think the 180s would come to Northern! Any idea if they're going to be relivered? I hope they are, I'm sick of seeing crappy Northern units with old liveries from TOCs that ended years ago!

Nah. All FNW liveries were hellfire.

 

[Philip]

My bet is that the unit(s) will be used on the peak hour Blackpool North - Manchester Vic 'Club' service and return.

It would have been nice to see one of the 180's on a S&C run.

I doubt they'll only just be used on that one, it's cost time and money to get these trains and it'll cost more with driver training. I suspect there'll be no drivers there who still sign 175's, as it's a good two years since they were lasst wandering up to Blackpool and Cumbria. Unlikely they'll be on all diagrams but I can't them working a morning peak and an evening peak and then doing nothing else all day. On Saturdays for example, they'd be useful all day really - throughout the day there will be the shoppers travelling into and out of Manchester, at night the clubbers will be doing the same.

 

[dunks]

I doubt they'll only just be used on that one, it's cost time and money to get these trains and it'll cost more with driver training. I suspect there'll be no drivers there who still sign 175's, as it's a good two years since they were lasst wandering up to Blackpool and Cumbria. Unlikely they'll be on all diagrams but I can't them working a morning peak and an evening peak and then doing nothing else all day. On Saturdays for example, they'd be useful all day really - throughout the day there will be the shoppers travelling into and out of Manchester, at night the clubbers will be doing the same.

One unit will do the Blackpool commuter run, not sure what the others will see use on - Manchester-Southport's been a past use for locos & stock.

We shall have to wait & see. I'll bet Transpennine Express are absolutley kicking themselves - they would have been superb for Manchester-Scotland runs.

 

[alex57601]

180s are for Manchester Victoria-Blackpool North services only, and apparently one Preston-Hazel Grove diagram.

One of the main restrictions to 180 operations is route clearance. As they are the same external design as the 175s they are only allowed on the routes that once saw 175s in the days of FNW, hence Manchester Victoria (which was usually a diversionary point if Piccadilly was no-go for what ever reason) to Blackpool North.

In theory, they are passed to go on a few other routes that Northern operate, including Barrow.

They shall be going off-lease in 2010 once Northern gets the remaining FGW 142s - five of which are due back North by December. No idea whether the 158s are coming back from ScotRail too at the same point.

 

[Mojo]

This equals an extra 14 carriages. also FGW are giving up their 14xs in 2009, and the LM 150s are available but I can't remember if they are going to FGW or Northern, or elsewhere.

I don't know how many vehicles LM have, but some of them are certaintly going to FGW.
http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/rail/pi/rollingstock/rollingstockplan?page=2#a1003

 

[1D53]

The 158's from Scotland should be back with Northern December 2009 or early 2010.

 

[Philip]

Didn't know 175's went to Hazel Grove, they must have done if 180's are cleared to there.

What would have seen a 175 at Hazel Grove? Just route clearing or did TPE run them on South transpennine in a 158 shortage? Or a Piccadilly-Hazel Grove when short of a 323?

I'm sure I read they weren't allowed on the Buxton line.

 

[Kneedown]

Just goes to show that the D(a)ft havn't got a clue by allowing these units to go to Northern on this route.
There was only one place they should've ended up, and that was at EMT for the Liverpool - Norwich's.
Are there a few marginal Labour seats on the Man Vic - Blackpool route by any chance?

 

[alex57601]

Just goes to show that the D(a)ft havn't got a clue by allowing these units to go to Northern on this route.
There was only one place they should've ended up, and that was at EMT for the Liverpool - Norwich's.
Are there a few marginal Labour seats on the Man Vic - Blackpool route by any chance?

Northern needs all the capacity it can get its hands on for the December timetable change. If it weren't for the three 180s they would be around 6 units short to fulfil the timetable, and is an excellent short-term solution until FGW frees up the 142s and LM releases the 150s. And of course, the aforementioned 158s currently in Scotland (one of which never gets used apparently).

 

[Kneedown]

Northern needs all the capacity it can get its hands on for the December timetable change. If it weren't for the three 180s they would be around 6 units short to fulfil the timetable, and is an excellent short-term solution until FGW frees up the 142s and LM releases the 150s. And of course, the aforementioned 158s currently in Scotland (one of which never gets used apparently).

And EMT is in exactly the same position as users will well know! And it makes more sense to have them on a long distance express route, than toddling along in place of a 142.
The situation is so bad here that they are even seriously considering loco's and stock on two diagrams for the Derby - Crewe run, and even if that goes ahead there is still a unit shortfall when you consider maintenance, failures etc.
Sorry, but seems to me to be a case of Labour luvvies terrified of losing their seats in the Northwest.

 

[Philip]

And EMT is in exactly the same position as users will well know! And it makes more sense to have them on a long distance express route, than toddling along in place of a 142.
The situation is so bad here that they are even seriously considering loco's and stock on two diagrams for the Derby - Crewe run, and even if that goes ahead there is still a unit shortfall when you consider maintenance, failures etc.
Sorry, but seems to me to be a case of Labour luvvies terrified of losing their seats in the Northwest.

Very biased point of view you have isn't it!

Firstly, 142's don't work Buxton-Blackpool's, it's mainly 156's - it's anything but 'a 142 route', if you'd actually experienced it then you'd know.

Secondly, Northern's route gets busy enough as it is, so the extra carriages wouldn't just benefit this service, it'd free up some stock for others so they will be put to good use.

Thirdly, Northern put the bid in, so why shouldn't they get them? EMT btw look like they're getting some 222's for Liverpool-Norwich diagrams.

 

[Kneedown]

Very biased point of view you have isn't it!

Firstly, 142's don't work Buxton-Blackpool's, it's mainly 156's - it's anything but 'a 142 route', if you'd actually experienced it then you'd know.

Secondly, Northern's route gets busy enough as it is, so the extra carriages wouldn't just benefit this service, it'd free up some stock for others so they will be put to good use.

Thirdly, Northern put the bid in, so why shouldn't they get them? EMT btw look like they're getting some 222's for Liverpool-Norwich diagrams.

142's, 156's, we mince units but the meaning is the same, and btw i've seen a good few 142's on the Buxton- Blackpools, as we always get held at Castlefield waiting for them.
It's just a case of extra carriages, it's suitability as well. I'm not sure how long the journey is from Manchester to Blackpool, but i'll bet it's not 6 hours as Liverpool - Norwich is, and the 180's won't be able to work anywhere near their potential top speed of 125mph, as they can on the Norwich's.
The D(a)ft do have control over which TOC's get what, so if they were doing their job properly they'd have said "no".
If there was a Pendolino off lease and Northern tried to collar it for the Hazel Grove shuttle do you think that would be an effective use of resources?

IF, and it's a big if, EMT get any more 222's, assuming they can prise HT's fingers off them, then the plan is to use them on the Corby's. There is no plan as such to diagram 222's on Liverpool - Norwich's. Only to consider using one, when available, at weekends.

 

[AlexS]

You've not seen 142s on any Buxton - Blackpools because they're barred from Buxton.

 

[bluenoxid]

Aye, one too many fights in the pubs and that was it. The ASBO lasts until 2020 I believe.

Whilst the DfT has the capaility to decide where stock goes, it is limited by who puts the best argument over and Northern are much better than many of the other operators to negotiate stock. They are willing to fight for it.

The North West timetable is also getting ripped up to shreds and one of the options that would have possibly been looked at is cutting capacity on routes such as the Sheffield - Manchester route. I'm sure EMT would have been singing Northern's praises if they pulled that stunt.

 

[devon_metro]

It would have been more sensible if TPEx got the 180s and gave Northern their 170s. But no. The North gets it all!

 

[1D53]

It would have been more sensible if TPEx got the 180s and gave Northern their 170s. But no. The North gets it all!

The North gets it all? Are you having a laugh? Northern's pacer fleet is the country in the country by a mile!

 

[alex57601]

But no. The North gets it all!

Probably because the TOCs up North are prepared to pay for the extra capacity with help from the PTEs and liaise with the DafT to come up with a solution.

 

[devon_metro]

The North gets it all? Are you having a laugh? Northern's pacer fleet is the country in the country by a mile!

FGW have made them work in Devon, although the north is taking them back and our services WILL be severely over-crowded!

 

[P156KWJ]

And EMT is in exactly the same position as users will well know! And it makes more sense to have them on a long distance express route, than toddling along in place of a 142.
The situation is so bad here that they are even seriously considering loco's and stock on two diagrams for the Derby - Crewe run, and even if that goes ahead there is still a unit shortfall when you consider maintenance, failures etc.
Sorry, but seems to me to be a case of Labour luvvies terrified of losing their seats in the Northwest.

According to news from David Horner (or whatever his name is) the original proposed class 31 + mk2 SO + mk2 DBSO might not be happening now, due to the staggering cost Serco want for their hire