S&C closed North of Kirkby Stephen

[Greybeard33]

Appleby Horse Fair is at the beginning of June (2nd to the 8th) and will cause real access problems across the whole of Appleby. I think it is a good idea to run trains further north if that can be done. However none of the stations are really suitable, unstaffed, no toilets etc, coupled with poor road access. Tough one......

Langwathby is on the A686, which connects to the A66/M6 at Penrith. The actual station facilities are minimal, but the old station building has been converted to the Brief Encounter Tea Rooms, which are well worth a visit (and have toilets). There is a large car park where coaches could turn and board, and the road journey would be considerably shorter/quicker than from Appleby.

I would have thought it would be worthwhile to put in a temporary crossover/headshunt north of the station so that Langwathby could become the interchange.

 

[PHILIPE]

So the Flying Scotsman trains from York to Carlisle in August & September are likely to terminate at Appleby?

I may be wrong, but I hardly think so due to facilities at Appleby not being able to handle it..

 

[lejog]

Poor road access is difficult to solve. The other issues much easier - hire in a Portakabin for the staff/as a waiting room and some polybogs. Something fTPE failed to do at Lockerbie, one bog between however many hundred people wanting to use it prior to a 2-hour coach journey.

Another thing you can do is to have the interchange station further South of the furthest the trains go, if that makes sense, i.e. overlap the buses and trains.

Langwathby Station has a large car park and is situated on the high standard A686 - 36mins to Carlisle via the M6 according to the AA journey planner. The amazing Keswick/Newcastle 888 bus/coach service runs via Langwathby, so no problems for coaches.

Lazonby Station has a reasonably large car parking area but requires a few miles journey on the probably adequate B6413 to reach the A6 (29 mins to Carlisle).

Armathwaite Station I don't think has that much space and is reached from the A6 by unclassified lanes on which you might not want to run coaches.

Whether these actually offer enough of an advantage over Appleby (43mins to Carlisle according to the AA) is questionable.

*Of course rail replacement coaches will take longer than the quoted journey times - the figures are provided only for comparison purposes.

 

[RichmondCommu]

I would have thought it would be worthwhile to put in a temporary crossover/headshunt north of the station so that Langwathby could become the interchange.

The cost would surely be too much for very little return.

 

[lineclear]

I would have thought it would be worthwhile to put in a temporary crossover/headshunt north of the station so that Langwathby could become the interchange.

It would be cheaper and easier to work by pilotman from Culgaith to Langwathby/the point of obstruction.

 

[D1009]

So the Flying Scotsman trains from York to Carlisle in August & September are likely to terminate at Appleby?

I may be wrong, but I hardly think so due to facilities at Appleby not being able to handle it..

No, there would be no way of turning the engine. More likely to run to Carlisle by one of the other routes as have other specials planned over the S&C.

 

[Greybeard33]

Langwathby Station has a large car park and is situated on the high standard A686 - 36mins to Carlisle via the M6 according to the AA journey planner. The amazing Keswick/Newcastle 888 bus/coach service runs via Langwathby, so no problems for coaches.

Lazonby Station has a reasonably large car parking area but requires a few miles journey on the probably adequate B6413 to reach the A6 (29 mins to Carlisle).

Armathwaite Station I don't think has that much space and is reached from the A6 by unclassified lanes on which you might not want to run coaches.

Whether these actually offer enough of an advantage over Appleby (43mins to Carlisle according to the AA) is questionable.

*Of course rail replacement coaches will take longer than the quoted journey times - the figures are provided only for comparison purposes.

Google Maps gives driving times without traffic of 40 mins from Appleby Station to Carlisle Station, 31 mins (9 less) from Langwathby and 26 mins (14 less) from Lazonby. Northern's temporary timetable allows 60 mins for the the direct Appleby - Carlisle buses. Applying this 3:2 ratio would give 13 mins saving by starting from Langwathby and 21 mins from Lazonby. The rail journey times from Appleby used to be 15 mins to Langwathby and 21 mins to Lazonby. So unlikely to be a net journey time saving when the roads are empty.

But a Langwathby interchange would avoid jams in Appleby, and Lazonby would additionally avoid the Penrith roundabouts. It might also reduce the number of buses required, without needing any more trains (at present the diagrams have a layover of an hour or more at Appleby).

 

[Lemmy99uk]

Unfortunately the legacy of British Rails land disposals rears its ugly head.

There is no railway car park at Lazonby. The car park belongs to Bells the bakery and there is a sign warning unauthorised railway vehicles not to enter.

Similarly, the car park at Langwathby is nearly all in private ownership. Northern has 6 parking spaces on rough ground at the far end, but the rest belongs to the cafe.

 

[DarloRich]

I may be wrong, but I hardly think so due to facilities at Appleby not being able to handle it..

Diesel charters seem to terminate at Appleby with steamers running to Carlisle via a different route. I expect that will happen with FS.

Unfortunately the legacy of British Rails land disposals rears its ugly head.

There is no railway car park at Lazonby. The car park belongs to Bells the bakery and there is a sign warning unauthorised railway vehicles not to enter.

Similarly, the car park at Langwathby is nearly all in private ownership. Northern has 6 parking spaces on rough ground at the far end, but the rest belongs to the cafe.

that is all easily solved. Agree a short term lease for the duration of the difficulty. It wont be vastly expensive in the grand scheme of things.

 

[Lemmy99uk]

that is all easily solved. Agree a short term lease for the duration of the difficulty. It wont be vastly expensive in the grand scheme of things.

Not as easy as you think.

I know from experience that Lazonby will be a 'no go'

Langwathby will probably be achievable, although there is not enough room to turn a full size coach without also reaching agreement with the chicken factory.

 

[Roose]

Ah, yes, the chicken factory. Amusingly operated by Frank Bird Poultry,

Disturbingly, their vehicle fleet includes a white Transit van with 'Night Catching Team' markings...

 

[Greybeard33]

Similarly, the car park at Langwathby is nearly all in private ownership. Northern has 6 parking spaces on rough ground at the far end, but the rest belongs to the cafe.

The cafe might see a business opportunity from the busloads of passengers waiting for departure of their connecting train (the bus timetable would have to allow for worst case traffic conditions, so the buses from Carlisle would often arrive early).

Does anyone know what vehicles Northern is currently using for the all stations replacement services between Appleby and Carlisle that already call at Langwathby, Lazonby and Armathwaite? I would guess minibuses?

 

[lejog]

Similarly, the car park at Langwathby is nearly all in private ownership. Northern has 6 parking spaces on rough ground at the far end, but the rest belongs to the cafe.

There may be a solution to that problem!

http://www.rightmove.co.uk/commercial-property-for-sale/property-38101981.html

 

[DarloRich]

Not as easy as you think.

I know from experience that Lazonby will be a 'no go'

Langwathby will probably be achievable, although there is not enough room to turn a full size coach without also reaching agreement with the chicken factory.

once the cheque book is open problems tend to vanish.

 

[backontrack]

Can the coach reach Kirkoswald and Armathwaite?

 

[STEVIEBOY1]

The cafe might see a business opportunity from the busloads of passengers waiting for departure of their connecting train (the bus timetable would have to allow for worst case traffic conditions, so the buses from Carlisle would often arrive early).

Does anyone know what vehicles Northern is currently using for the all stations replacement services between Appleby and Carlisle that already call at Langwathby, Lazonby and Armathwaite? I would guess minibuses?

When I was at Appleby last week, the two coaches were there, both the non stop service to Carlisle and the other one calling at all stations were full size 50 plus seaters. Nice looking vehicles too, the non stop was Irvings a big orange one, I can't remember who was doing the other one, it was a white vehicle.

 

[Greybeard33]

When I was at Appleby last week, the two coaches were there, both the non stop service to Carlisle and the other one calling at all stations were full size 50 plus seaters. Nice looking vehicles too, the non stop was Irvings a big orange one, I can't remember who was doing the other one, it was a white vehicle.

So, despite the doubts expressed upthread, coaches can get to Armathwaite. If the trains ran to all the way to Armathwaite, there could just be a coach shuttle from there to Carlisle, rather than the separate direct and stopping routes. Although the coaches might have to park elsewhere, and just drop off/pick up at the station.

 

[30907]

So, despite the doubts expressed upthread, coaches can get to Armathwaite. If the trains ran to all the way to Armathwaite, there could just be a coach shuttle from there to Carlisle, rather than the separate direct and stopping routes. Although the coaches might have to park elsewhere, and just drop off/pick up at the station.

Bit of a difference between picking up or dropping off a handful of passengers and loading/unloading a train load, though.

 

[Crossover]

It might also reduce the number of buses required, without needing any more trains (at present the diagrams have a layover of an hour or more at Appleby).

A number of us travelled to stations on the S&C a few weeks ago

We took this train to Ribblehead:
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/Y91391/2016/04/25

We "bumped into" the same units again on this service:
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/Y90054/2016/04/25

Only a 3 hour layover in Appleby (and yes it had at least the same guard!)

 

[lejog]

So, despite the doubts expressed upthread, coaches can get to Armathwaite. If the trains ran to all the way to Armathwaite, there could just be a coach shuttle from there to Carlisle, rather than the separate direct and stopping routes. Although the coaches might have to park elsewhere, and just drop off/pick up at the station.

Have you actually been to Armathwaite? A station with four car parking spaces situated on a narrow unclassified road, with coaches picking 100-200 passengers on a summer Settle-Carlisle service????????

Armathwaite Station
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Bit of a difference between picking up or dropping off a handful of passengers and loading/unloading a train load, though.

Precisely.

 

[Lemmy99uk]

The Armarhwaite/Lazonby/Langwathby coach is booked a midi-bus, although full sized coaches can be used.

The road to Armathwaite is easily passable for a full size bus but generally not wide enough to pass other vehicles without pulling over.

The real problem is access to the station platforms. There is a small car park on the down side, but it is not big enough for coaches, which would have to board and alight from the highway causing all sorts of problems. Even then, they wouldn't be able to turn around and would have to use an alternative route for the return.There is also a lack of waiting facilities and mobile phone signal if there are any delays to rail services.

If the trains were to use the up platform, the situation is even worse as it is reached from a partially surfaced steep track directly from the roadside. There would be no chance of coaches picking up/setting down there.

 

[Greybeard33]

From Google Maps satellite and Street View images, Armathwaite station car park looks big enough for a couple of full size coaches to reverse in and park alongside each other. Car parking could be restricted temporarily. See https://goo.gl/maps/uEWz7vvEae32 and https://goo.gl/maps/12jakYHB6gM2. Coaches are no more than three times the length of the cars in the images. Alternatively, the cost of widening Station Road a bit outside the car park would be a tiny fraction of what Network Rail is spending to repair the railway at Eden Brows.

With pilotman single line working, the Down platform, adjacent to the car park, could be used for both arrivals and departures. When the train arrived, the passengers would go straight from the platform on to the waiting coach. The train would then remain at the platform to form the next Leeds service; when the coach(es) arrived from Carlisle the passengers could board immediately. In case of a long delay to a northbound train, the southbound coach(es) could be held at Carlisle to ensure they did not get to Armathwaite before the train. So waiting facilities would not be needed, although there is seating and a shelter on the platform (and a waiting room on the other platform).

In any case I expect passenger numbers will be well down this summer. Most of the tourists on a scenic excursion from Settle will prefer to pass the time in the honeypots of Appleby, rather than taking the bus ride to Carlisle and back.

The impact of a few more coaches on the local traffic would be small beer compared with all the heavy trucks to/from the Eden Brows worksite.

 

[geoffk]

There is a problem with passengers not being allowed on the coaches with drinks, e.g. coffee and tea. They are told it's at the driver's discretion. These are passengers with rail tickets who expect rail conditions of carriage to apply.

There needs to be a consistent approach. Replacement coaches working for Virgin last weekend during the WCML closure were able to take bikes, dogs and wheelchairs, space permitting, and no problem with drinks, but Northern RRBs specifically exclude the first three items.

I can accept a ban on alcohol or cooked food on a coach but common sense needs to apply to everything else. As so often, lack of training for coach drivers and often difficult passengers combine to make things unpleasant for everyone else.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I was bad mouthed by a driver for taking coffee on a coach once, he waited until I had sat down before commenting loudly to the dispatcher about me with a tirade of abuse. Unfortunately I was in too much of a hurry to make something of it, I fail to see why he could not have said "Excuse me, sir, could you please finish your coffee before getting on the coach?"


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[edwin_m]

I would think cups of hot drink would be more hazardous, and cups of any drink more likely to cause damage, in a coach going over minor country roads than in one making a motorway journey.

I didn't see any reports on how many people are using these bus links (apologies if I missed something). Can anybody comment?

 

[Bletchleyite]

FWIW National Express as of the last time I used them permitted coffee provided it had a lid.


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[trainmananthon]

I have just been speaking to one of the guards on the train to Appleby and asked about the situation with regards running to Armathwaite next month:

Trains will continue to terminate at Appleby with buses connecting there, but will then run ECS to Armathwaite and back to retain route knowledge on that section of the line. A pilotman will be used as it will be Single Line between Culgaith and Armathwaite

As for the Horse Fair, services will again terminate at Appleby, but instead the buses will connect at Kirkby Stephen to avoid the disruption during that period.

 

[endecotp]

How many passengers would be better served by an Appleby-Penrith bus?
I.e. those travelling to/from Scotland - though fewer trains stop at Penrith than Carlisle.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If running to Armathwaite and back, why not run in service for those actually wanting to go there?

 

[Lemmy99uk]

As for the Horse Fair, services will again terminate at Appleby, but instead the buses will connect at Kirkby Stephen to avoid the disruption during that period.

I don't think that is very likely

200 people being sent from Carlisle to Kirkby Stephen to catch a f&s train back to Appleby will not work.

It will be even worse in reverse. All the Carlisle passengers and Leeds passengers trying to get on the same train!