S&C closed North of Kirkby Stephen

[SemaphoreSam]

Inasmuch as the S&C, lovely though it is, was always the '2nd best' solution, and will ALWAYS have these sorts of difficulties, would a better solution be to grab the bull by the horns, and reestablish the much superior Clapham-Ingleton-Lowgill route to mainline standards? The S&C, with the crumbling Ribblehead viaduct, and constant landslide threat, will never compare to the Ingleton route; it was a 2nd (or 3rd) best solution to the Midland-LNWR feud right from the start.
Sam

 

[yorksrob]

Inasmuch as the S&C, lovely though it is, was always the '2nd best' solution, and will ALWAYS have these sorts of difficulties, would a better solution be to grab the bull by the horns, and reestablish the much superior Clapham-Ingleton-Lowgill route to mainline standards? The S&C, with the crumbling Ribblehead viaduct, and constant landslide threat, will never compare to the Ingleton route; it was a 2nd (or 3rd) best solution to the Midland-LNWR feud right from the start.
Sam

From a strategic point of view, isn't it better to have a parallel route all the way up to carlisle, rather than have both routes blocked by anything North of Low Gill ? One suspects that the other options were 'preferred' when built primarily to avoid the cost of construction all the way to Carlisle.

 

[SemaphoreSam]

Very good points, which is probably why the Ingleton will not be re-built. The S & C was the best of bad choices the Midland had to make, to establish its Scottish route; it is now somewhat 'secure', but with more landslides, and Ribblehead viaduct slowly crumbling, it will be more and more expensive to maintain. That said, I've always loved traveling on it when I can get over there...Sam

 

[yorksrob]

Very good points, which is probably why the Ingleton will not be re-built. The S & C was the best of bad choices the Midland had to make, to establish its Scottish route; it is now somewhat 'secure', but with more landslides, and Ribblehead viaduct slowly crumbling, it will be more and more expensive to maintain. That said, I've always loved traveling on it when I can get over there...Sam

The stability of the embankments is a bit of an unknown, but there was quite a lot of work done on refurbishing Ribblehead about 25 years ago which should keep it up to scratch for a few decades.

 

[furnessvale]

Very good points, which is probably why the Ingleton will not be re-built. The S & C was the best of bad choices the Midland had to make, to establish its Scottish route; it is now somewhat 'secure', but with more landslides, and Ribblehead viaduct slowly crumbling, it will be more and more expensive to maintain. That said, I've always loved traveling on it when I can get over there...Sam

Is it?

 

[nitten_travell]

Afraid not, it was from an internal staff briefing document.

Which, incidentally, was subsequently amended to say that special offer tickets such as the MetroCard Winter S&C offer, and the Northern £10 Day ranger offer were NOT included in this relaxation and anybody with these tickets would need to use the replacement bus service.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Thanks for this. I'm under no illusion that the service will not be running north of Appleby by April! I'm just looking for something which explicitly states that anyone travelling northbound may instead travel from Leeds to Preston and on to Carlisle. Northern Rail's own site (http://www.northernrail.org/news/7861) only discusses southbound routes. I suppose I could just call their helpline.

 

[STEVIEBOY1]

Sorry if this is in wrong thread, I did look for other postings about this subject but could not find any?

Last week I was on a rail holiday in the North of England and we were due to travel on the SCR, however owing to the Landslip could only go as far as Appleby from Settle, I was told how severe the landslip was, I did not realise that it was so bad, but whereabouts is it.? Someone said that a road is having to be built to get the repair equipment to the site.

Are any freight trains still using the part of the line that is open as I know there are some quarries in that area with rail access?

It sounds like it will be a longish job to get the line back in action. I wonder what will happen with the regular summer steam charters? I know that some of the winter special went via Shap or the Coastal Route.

It's a shame as it is such a good line. When we travelled there were not a huge amount of other passengers on out 2 carriage 158 unit. They seemed to have the bus replacement services to / from Carlisle well organised.

Prior to boarding the train, we did go to Ribblehead to see the viaduct which was great, as was the pub by Ribblehead Station.

 

[Freightmaster]

...whereabouts is it.? Someone said that a road is having to be built to get the repair equipment to the site.

Eden Brows.

For pictures of the site/area, click here

Are any freight trains still using the part of the line that is open as I know there are some quarries in that area with rail access?

Stone from Arcow quarry near Horton to Manchester and Leeds is still running,
as are gypsum trains to Kirkby Thore (Newbiggin), just north of Appleby.


MARK

 

[800001]

http://www.networkrailmediacentre.c...reed-for-settle-to-carlisle-railway-land-slip

Lots of info and pictures of affected area.

 

[Carlisle]

It sounds like it will be a longish job to get the line back in action. .

Yes I Have zero knowledge of civil engineering, but can't help wondering was there absolutely no other possible option available to NR besides this extremely lengthy total closure (the rumour is up to 18!months) given that over the years many entirely new railways have been built from scratch in around 2 or 3 years and occasionally less than that

 

[yorksrob]

Still well worth a trip up to Appleby if you get the chance. Travelled it several times since the landslip and that section's running more or less normally.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Eden Brows.

For pictures of the site/area, click here

MARK

What is the geological nature of the land in the Eden Brows area and are there water-course problems in that same area?

 

[najaB]

Yes I Have zero knowledge of civil engineering, but can't help wondering was there absolutely no other possible option available to NR besides this extremely lengthy total closure...

The problem is that the land hasn't stopped moving yet - they can't start rebuilding until it has been stabilised. The only alternative would be a completely different alignment that avoids the area in question.

 

[Carlisle]

The problem is that the land hasn't stopped moving yet - they can't start rebuilding until it has been stabilised. The only alternative would be a completely different alignment that avoids the area in question.

cheers for that information, I guess they could have done with that old line from Clifton and Lowther to Kirkby Thore still being in existence

 

[Lankyline]

What is the geological nature of the land in the Eden Brows area and are there water-course problems in that same area?

Paul, according to the British geological survey its "Penrith Sandstone Formation - Sandstone. Sedimentary Bedrock formed approximately 271 to 299 million years ago in the Permian Period. Local environment previously dominated by wind blown deposits"

The link below maybe of interest, it also has an earthquake map for the UK of which shows a 2.1 quake near Silloth in 2015 !

http://mapapps.bgs.ac.uk/geologyofbritain/home.html

 

[Roose]

BBC Radio Cumbria are reporting today that Network Rail hope that services will be restored to the northern part of the line in June/July (I forget which).

Not as good as one might hope, though. A Network Rail spokesperson said that the affected track at Eden Brows is still subsiding and is now 1.5m below its intended level. They hope it will be possible to run trains further north than Appleby in June/July.

That might simplify rail replacement services if a suitable alternative station with coach access is available nearer Carlisle.

 

[yorksrob]

BBC Radio Cumbria are reporting today that Network Rail hope that services will be restored to the northern part of the line in June/July (I forget which).

Not as good as one might hope, though. A Network Rail spokesperson said that the affected track at Eden Brows is still subsiding and is now 1.5m below its intended level. They hope it will be possible to run trains further north than Appleby in June/July.

That might simplify rail replacement services if a suitable alternative station with coach access is available nearer Carlisle.

That's better than we'd feared !

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

The problem is that the land hasn't stopped moving yet - they can't start rebuilding until it has been stabilised. The only alternative would be a completely different alignment that avoids the area in question.

Is this the same type of land situation at Hatfield and Stainforth last year, where it was said there was still forward movement of the colliery waste heave for some time after the original heave event?

 

[Cumberlandkev]

Appleby Horse Fair is at the beginning of June (2nd to the 8th) and will cause real access problems across the whole of Appleby. I think it is a good idea to run trains further north if that can be done. However none of the stations are really suitable, unstaffed, no toilets etc, coupled with poor road access. Tough one......

 

[najaB]

Is this the same type of land situation at Hatfield and Stainforth last year, where it was said there was still forward movement of the colliery waste heave for some time after the original heave event?

If I remember correctly, it's a different situation, but the same outcome. In the Hatfield case it was a slip onto the railway from above, in this case it is the land moving away from the railway from below.

In both instances the not insignificant amount of material moving (many thousands of tons) means that there's not much that Network Rail can do other than try to drain away the water that's lubricating the flow and wait for it to stop moving.

 

[matacaster]

That's better than we'd feared !

Which year??

 

[Lankyline]

Not going to be back open quick enough to save "The Fellsman" for this year, the 2016 programme has been cancelled

 

[yorksrob]

Which year??

Ah, fair point !

 

[pnepaul]

According to the Settle and Carlisle trust the line at Armathwaite will be closed for the rest of 2016. This is a quote from their Facebook page quoting someone from Network Rail.

"The red sandstone bedrock is some 20m below the surface – the whole of this 20m x 150m x 250m section of embankment fill is on the move, sliding over the bedrock. The proposed solution will be to construct a 150m long piled retaining wall and slab to support the railway – in essence a buried viaduct. The detailed design will take until June and then heavy piling and construction will take place over the summer and early autumn, with a view to having the line open for traffic in 2017."

 

[Essexman]

So the Flying Scotsman trains from York to Carlisle in August & September are likely to terminate at Appleby?

 

[Glenmutchkin]

The link below maybe of interest, it also has an earthquake map for the UK of which shows a 2.1 quake near Silloth in 2015 !

Reading this reminded me of something that I had almost forgotten. In the school summer holiday of 1970 I walked the Pennine Way with two school friends. One of our overnight stops was in Alston, Cumbria where we were rather surprised at breakfast to be told that we had slept through an earthquake.

Prompted by Lankyline's post I did a google search of Cumbrian Earthquakes which led to this list.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_earthquakes_in_the_British_Isles#20th_century which states that there was an earthquake centred on Kirkby Stephen on 9th August 1970 which fits my dates. It was 4.1 on the scale.

Further searching led me to a booklet entitled 'Geology of Settle-Carlisle Railway' published by The University of Leeds. On page 14 this mentions an earthquake in the Vale of Eden on 1st August 1970.

So getting back to the point of the thread the Leeds booklet may answer some of the questions about Geology in the area of the slip. I could not spot a publication date but at the back there are references listed with dates as recent as 2006. Here is the link.

http://www.see.leeds.ac.uk/misc/sci...py leaflets/9388-Settle-Carlisle Booklet3.pdf

 

[Bletchleyite]

Appleby Horse Fair is at the beginning of June (2nd to the 8th) and will cause real access problems across the whole of Appleby. I think it is a good idea to run trains further north if that can be done. However none of the stations are really suitable, unstaffed, no toilets etc, coupled with poor road access. Tough one......

Poor road access is difficult to solve. The other issues much easier - hire in a Portakabin for the staff/as a waiting room and some polybogs. Something fTPE failed to do at Lockerbie, one bog between however many hundred people wanting to use it prior to a 2-hour coach journey.

Another thing you can do is to have the interchange station further South of the furthest the trains go, if that makes sense, i.e. overlap the buses and trains.

 

[STEVIEBOY1]

Eden Brows.

For pictures of the site/area, click here


Stone from Arcow quarry near Horton to Manchester and Leeds is still running,
as are gypsum trains to Kirkby Thore (Newbiggin), just north of Appleby.


MARK

Good to hear that some of the freight, stone, quarry trains are able to run still.

 

[Lankyline]

Reading this reminded me of something that I had almost forgotten. In the school summer holiday of 1970 I walked the Pennine Way with two school friends. One of our overnight stops was in Alston, Cumbria where we were rather surprised at breakfast to be told that we had slept through an earthquake.

Prompted by Lankyline's post I did a google search of Cumbrian Earthquakes which led to this list.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_earthquakes_in_the_British_Isles#20th_century which states that there was an earthquake centred on Kirkby Stephen on 9th August 1970 which fits my dates. It was 4.1 on the scale.

Further searching led me to a booklet entitled 'Geology of Settle-Carlisle Railway' published by The University of Leeds. On page 14 this mentions an earthquake in the Vale of Eden on 1st August 1970.

So getting back to the point of the thread the Leeds booklet may answer some of the questions about Geology in the area of the slip. I could not spot a publication date but at the back there are references listed with dates as recent as 2006. Here is the link.

http://www.see.leeds.ac.uk/misc/sci...py leaflets/9388-Settle-Carlisle Booklet3.pdf

Must admit I found the above Leeds booklet really interesting, from how I understood it, the railway was essentially built across a series of geological faults, some very ancient but also in the area of the current slip, heavy rainfall having a major effect on the banking may also have been compounded by ancient watercourses below coupled mixed sedimentary layers that may have become unstable.

Paul I hope this manages to answer your question about watercourses

 

[adrock1976]

In a nutshell, it goes to show the huge challenges that the Midland Railway faced while designing and constructing the northward extension to Scotland.