Gatwick Express Industrial Relations

[cjmillsnun]

I feel for all staff at GTR right now. Govia are proving themselves to be a company that will bully their own employees to get their way.

 

[ainsworth74]

You usually find that as soon as you mention the S-Word that management will change their minds. Because if something goes wrong and you go to court and mention the S-Word and you say that I was coerced into doing it, it's them that get the proverbial book thrown at them, not you.

Worryingly not so much recently though. See the Merseyrail guard who is currently being prosecuted despite, as far as I'm aware, correctly following all the procedures laid down by his TOC and the Rule Book.

I also have to agree with flamingo this has got the fingerprints of the DfT all over it as far as I'm concerned. In which case this could be become very long winded and even more bitter.

 

[cjmillsnun]

Last year FGW/GWR (but they were a bit premature), this year Southern. DFT's sticky little fingerprints all over it again.

I see the same posters on here saying that staff are lucky to have a job and should just accept the empty promises, tug their forelocks and remember their place. Well you can all go to hell - it's you people that will eventually cause everybody to end up with the type of country (and transport network) you deserve, but it won't happen without good people putting up a fight against your short-termism, stupidity and narrow-mindedness.

Good luck everybody in Southern, it's everybody's fight. Don't let the buggers grind you down!

Couldn't agree with you more.

 

[Llanigraham]

As a driver I think I would be asking to be given a printed copy of the Risk Assessment for every station stop where I was expected to do DOO; that should slow the system down for a while.

Welcome to the wonderful world of 21st Century railway work....................NOT!!

 

[gimmea50anyday]

Last year FGW/GWR (but they were a bit premature), this year Southern. DFT's sticky little fingerprints all over it again.


Good luck everybody in Southern, it's everybody's fight. Don't let the buggers grind you down!

Next it will be VTEC alongside the introduction of the IEP, followed by TPE and Northern seeing as tho Rail North have already made it an aspiration to get rid of the guard and TPE are ordering IEP derived trains......

Yet VWC and XC are sticking by their need for a guard (train manager)......

It should be reminded that it was the guard of the FGW service with assistance from an XC traincrew travelling pass on that service who dealt with the aftermath of Ladbroke Grove following the loss of both drivers....

 

[Antman]

Let me make this easy for you.... one fully safety trained member of staff on board.... the driver. If the train has the misfortune of hitting something, first person to be incapacitated the aforementioned driver. Leaving nobody on train aware of railway safety protocols.
But hey... who cares about safety! :roll::roll:

And how likely is that to happen?

 

[sarahj]

And how likely is that to happen?

Some recent close ones:

Train hits tractor on level crossing in Norfolk
Train hits another in a station
Train hits cows, derails.

And but for the grace of god, thankfully not in UK.

Head on crash in Bravaria. Drivers dead.

 

[BRblue]

And how likely is that to happen?

Well if we only cared about safety on an adhoc basis we would be in a right old mess...
Safety is about prevention not cure.

 

[Deepgreen]

In a better world, I would like to see drivers enjoying and taking pride in their jobs, with safe practices (possibly including despatch duties for any train formation, depending on the methodology in place) and good pay/conditions for doing so.

I would also like to see the position of guards/conductors/train managers employed to take an enhanced passenger-facing role that would see them moving around the train, ticket checking/issuing, reporting/solving operating problems and having the level of training required to take charge of the train during out-of-course events. They would not be required to despatch under normal circumstances. These people too should enjoy their jobs and be well rewarded for it (in terms of pay, hours, etc.) bearing in mind the background training they would require that passengers would not necessarily be aware of.

In essence, a two person train crew who are used efficiently and well looked-after. This situation would take time to develop and would require work/commitment on the part of the crews and the management. Once engendered, it needs effort to sustain it, but only takes very little time and effort to destroy it.

A dream?...

 

[Tetchytyke]

And how likely is that to happen?

A train hit a tractor and the driver required hospital treatment for his injuries. When did that happen? Last Sunday.

Worryingly not so much recently though. See the Merseyrail guard who is currently being prosecuted despite, as far as I'm aware, correctly following all the procedures laid down by his TOC and the Rule Book.

I think people are overreacting to that incident. I think the prosecution there is because the passenger injured was an elderly lady out with her carer, a demographic not known for mad dashes for the doors, and so there is a certain amount of skepticism about whether the guard did despatch properly.

That said, your underlying point is correct. Drivers who have an operating incident under DOO cannot rely on the support of their employer. We know GoVia management would throw them under the bus, so to speak, to save their own skin.

As for wider concerns about safety, the management at GoVia may have forgotten about the cluster**** at Kentish Town a few years ago, but passengers and staff have not.

"DDO is unsafe" according to the feeling of railway staff vs "DDO has fewer incidents" according to TfL.

LOROL and TfL were comparing PTI incidents on the older parts of the Overground network with PTI incidents on the ELLX. Obviously there were fewer PTI incidents on the ELLX, with straight platforms, level access and narrow gaps. That's how it should be. They were comparing apples with oranges; they wanted guards gone, so I'll let you decide whether they were being disingenuous.

 

[Antman]

Well if we only cared about safety on an adhoc basis we would be in a right old mess...
Safety is about prevention not cure.

Playing devils advocate I just cannot see the justification for a guard who is simply going to do the doors at Victoria and Gatwick and have nothing else to do in between

 

[tony6499]

I feel for all staff at GTR right now. Govia are proving themselves to be a company that will bully their own employees to get their way.

Govia/Southern have been like that for a few years but it was in the past just picking on certain staff they wished to get rid of, they've now upped that and wish to get rid of all Conductors as well as pick fights with all their staff.

I'm not sure what they wish to achieve here, no company can be successful with so much industrial strife going on.

 

[sarahj]

In a better world, I would like to see drivers enjoying and taking pride in their jobs, with safe practices (possibly including despatch duties for any train formation, depending on the methodology in place) and good pay/conditions for doing so.

I would also like to see the position of guards/conductors/train managers employed to take an enhanced passenger-facing role that would see them moving around the train, ticket checking/issuing, reporting/solving operating problems and having the level of training required to take charge of the train during out-of-course events. They would not be required to despatch under normal circumstances. These people too should enjoy their jobs and be well rewarded for it (in terms of pay, hours, etc.) bearing in mind the background training they would require that passengers would not necessarily be aware of.

In essence, a two person train crew who are used efficiently and well looked-after. This situation would take time to develop and would require work/commitment on the part of the crews and the management. Once engendered, it needs effort to sustain it, but only takes very little time and effort to destroy it.

A dream?...

The problem with driver closing the doors is, even with in cab CCTV they don't have a great view, and once one the move should be looking at the road ahead. I've seen doors gain interlock with things sticking out of them, like a brolly. Driver would not have spotted this. I've saved lives by halting a train after we move when someone on the platform does something silly. Driver by then has no CCTV, and is driving the train. During dispatch I can see the whole train and all goings on, in fine 3D colour. (I'm tested for this). I've seen the internal reports on safety and the DOO trains are just one after another. But it's all, driver need more coaching. No looking at the big picture. I know you want us to be going through the train and checking first class, and I'm fine with that, we do what we can, when we can and you pay the extra, but a few weeks ago, on your line, at Coulsdon South , me being there, doing dispatch and closing and being in control of closing the doors helped a passenger out of a nasty situation.
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Playing devils advocate I just cannot see the justification for a guard who is simply going to do the doors at Victoria and Gatwick and have nothing else to do in between

I don't know, checking the train, making sure everyone is ok, fixing faults, dealing with issues, and if the train comes to a messy halt, giving you info and helping sort things out.

I was passing on a DOO TL train the other day. There was no PIS and the driver said nothing. Any lost/confused punters on that train must be thinking , 'what'

 

[Deepgreen]

The problem with driver closing the doors is, even with in cab CCTV they don't have a great view, and once one the move should be looking at the road ahead. I've seen doors gain interlock with things sticking out of them, like a brolly. Driver would not have spotted this. I've saved lives by halting a train after we move when someone on the platform does something silly. Driver by then has no CCTV, and is driving the train. During dispatch I can see the whole train and all goings on, in fine 3D colour. (I'm tested for this). I've seen the internal reports on safety and the DOO trains are just one after another. But it's all, driver need more coaching. No looking at the big picture. I know you want us to be going through the train and checking first class, and I'm fine with that, we do what we can, when we can and you pay the extra, but a few weeks ago, on your line, at Coulsdon South , me being there, doing dispatch and closing and being in control of closing the doors helped a passenger out of a nasty situation.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Don't disagree with any of that, which is why I said a safe regime for the driver carry out despatch would be needed, whatever that might entail. The present CCTV system may not be adequate to meet that criterion. In the meantime, guards must stay if drivers genuinely feel that they cannot operate the train safely without them (and not just for trains with more than ten cars, either, because the argument that a guard is there for train safety applies as much to a train on the move as to despatch, and therefore as much to a one car train as a 12 car). Until then, let's keep guards.

 

[sarahj]

I think I need to step back from this. I don't want to post anything i should not, and with some internal docs showing up Southern might think it's me. I did not post them or even have anything to do with posting them, they are coming from facebook (where some have been removed from a public section now).

I will still be watching, and might say something later. but for now.

Takes one step back.

 

[Chrisgr31]

As a commuter on Southern I can't say I am delighted by how events have unfolded this week, and of course I will not be happy if there is industrial action.

However I can understand the position of the drivers and guards. It doesn't take a genius to spot that in the event of their being a collision ivolving a train the most vulnerable person is the driver as they are at the front. So therefore it follows that in the ideal world you would have someone on board fully trained in safety procedures to help protect and advise the travelling public.

Even reading Southerns press releases on their website it doesn't take a lot to realise that promises not to reduce the pay of existing staff mean that they will be marking time until they leave, when they do leave they potentially will not be replaced. In fact there is every chance that the new grade they are creating will be abolished in a few years.

I guess you can compare it in a way with their Twitter team, you had a team of 3 or more people providing the information the travellers wanted. You merged with other teams, and most of the team members left (were made redundant or whatever) your new team couldn't tweet the info the old one did so you reduce the information they give out, until the information they give is no use to anyone, however you have saved a number of salaries but upset the passengers in the meantime.

The reality is that Southern have done many good things on their routes, new rolling stock, additional services, longer services etc but in a typically British way they seem determined to foul it all up.

I believe I am right in saying that Southern is the areas which actually makes a profit. Why not look at what they are doing right and rolling that out to other providers rather than trying to upset all the staff and passengers with changes none of them want.

 

[BRblue]

Playing devils advocate I just cannot see the justification for a guard who is simply going to do the doors at Victoria and Gatwick and have nothing else to do in between

This is not only about Victoria-Gatwick services... do you honestly think it would end there?

 

[Agent_c]

So whats the end game here?

I presume that the driver in a DOO situation is the muggins who ends up being responsible for safety, if a driver rejects a diagram on safety grounds, are we potentially looking at an argument in an employment tribunal over whether the driver has reasonably used his judgement?

 

[spangles]

I guess we will know as soon as the next 12 car is scheduled to run

 

[The Ham]

Let me make this easy for you.... one fully safety trained member of staff on board.... the driver. If the train has the misfortune of hitting something, first person to be incapacitated the aforementioned driver. Leaving nobody on train aware of railway safety protocols.
But hey... who cares about safety! :roll::roll:

...and how many times has that happened (to make it slightly unfair I'll allow cases of either one of the staff being incapacitated)?

 

[Dave1987]

...and how many times has that happened (to make it slightly unfair I'll allow cases of either one of the staff being incapacitated)?

Wow, are you really are seriously basing safety on the laws of probability?
What was the probability of a 170 smashing into a tractor at speed before it happened, considering how many of those crossings happen perfectly safely day in day out?

 

[cjmillsnun]

...and how many times has that happened (to make it slightly unfair I'll allow cases of either one of the staff being incapacitated)?

It has happened more than once. It is far more unlikely than it used to be thanks to TPWS but there is still the opportunity for it to happen at something like a level crossing incident.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Wow, are you really are seriously basing safety on the laws of probability?
What was the probability of a 170 smashing into a tractor at speed before it happened, considering how many of those crossings happen perfectly safely day in day out?

To be fair safety decisions are almost always made on the balance of probability. That said tree strikes and level crossing incidents are not that uncommon

 

[Dave1987]

To be fair safety decisions are almost always made on the balance of money. That said tree strikes and level crossing incidents are not that uncommon

Corrected that for you

 

[ainsworth74]

Corrected that for you

Surely it's both?

 

[IKB]

...and how many times has that happened (to make it slightly unfair I'll allow cases of either one of the staff being incapacitated)?

It is nonsense to say that because drivers are not incapacitated very often, ergo it means trains do not require other members of safety critical staff onboard.

Safety contingencies should be built in for emergencies/times of need, whether they happen once a month, once a year or once a decade etc.

The need for such contingencies should be risk assessed on the potential consequences of an incident, not on the frequency with which they occur.

Look at cost Vs frequency of use in other walks of life:

- Aeroplanes have inflatable safety slides, oxygen masks and other safety kit. Seldom (if ever) used.
- The Fire Brigade at Heathrow airport don't respond to that many plane fires.
- Cars come with kitted with a spare wheel, used once in a blue moon.
- The Queen has a personal police protection team, but hasn't been shot at since the early 1980s.
- The Met discharged firearms on only a couple of occasions last year, yet employ 2K firearms officers.

I'm sure others can come up with a much better list than me.

Would anyone seriously suggest those things should be dispensed with because the need for their use happens only infrequently?

There's a lot short sightedness on this thread that harks back to people's recollection of their own incident free commute, rather than what COULD go wrong.

Emergency evacuation of a 12 car DOO train anyone...?

 

[cjmillsnun]

Cars rarely come with a spare wheel nowadays. Manufacturers decided it was cheaper not to bother.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Surely it's both?

Yes it is. The balance of probability against cost.

 

[IKB]

Cars rarely come with a spare wheel nowadays. Manufacturers decided it was cheaper not to bother.

As if that is really relevant to the overall context of the debate. But I take your point.

 

[Harbon 1]

Having seen the sizes of the screens first hand, sat in the drivers seat, I am completely with driver and guards on this.

For 12 (or any number of) images to be simultaneously monitored on those screens and the train be driven safely is ludicrous.

I've been keeping tabs on this thread for obvious reasons, and will even more so now.

Good luck to all the drivers and guards threatened with this.

 

[The Ham]

Wow, are you really are seriously basing safety on the laws of probability?
What was the probability of a 170 smashing into a tractor at speed before it happened, considering how many of those crossings happen perfectly safely day in day out?

No, I am quite happy with a guard being on the train, it was more a curiosity. In fact, I would argue that more train companies should follow the lead of SWT and have guards "patrolling" through the trains.

The main point of my long post was more to with the fact that there is more and more automation and self service. As such there could come a point where the general public, having lost many previously available jobs to them, could be less supportive of what could (not that I am saying that it is) be perceived as job protection by railway staff.

 

[Minilad]

Cars rarely come with a spare wheel nowadays. Manufacturers decided it was cheaper not to bother.

But i bet most drivers would prefer there was one