Gatwick Express Industrial Relations

[Deepgreen]

If that's the case as presented I wish you good luck and fortune, and I shall be keeping my fingers crossed for the managers involved to meet with a few nasty accidents as karma for a particularly dirty trick. Drop dead.

This is a particularly inappropriate comment for many reasons. including;

1. You have made it to SarahJ whether you intended to or not - if it was not intentional (and I must assume your previous wish of luck was not sarcastic), you need to be very careful how you word posts. She is merely the messenger (and possible victim), and has done nothing here to warrant such an outburst.

2. The sentiment is wholly unsuitable for a discussion forum, because it is extremely aggressive and rude, not to mention threatening and offensive.

3. You have lashed out without considering the proper means to address your (very understandable) concerns about the future role of guards. The entrenched and immature attitude displayed by both elements of the growing dispute will not help anything. The point of a written forum such as this is to allow discussion in a civilised and considered way without resorting to playground tactics.

This forum should not entertain such posts and I would ask the moderators to act.

 

[Tetchytyke]

If people don't like a comment, they know where the report button is.

I wouldn't be as blunt as LowLevel, but I agree with the sentiment. If any passenger should get injured at PTI should DOO be put in place, it should be the CEO of GoVia who goes to prison, and for a very very long time. We all know, of course, that it won't be. It'll be the poor sap in the driver's seat who gets hung out to dry.

It is a very interesting post, and one that I am not surprised by. The GatEx service on Saturday morning was not a mistake, it was a deliberate attempt to undermine the drivers, and now it hasn't worked GoVia are making it clear they are going to go to war.

As I said before, if the guards are turned into Ticket Examiners that wouldn't save the TOC money unless there was a serious degradation in the T&Cs for the new role. Keeping the salary and perks the same wouldn't save any cash; the marginal amount with operational flexibility would be offset by the cost of the change.

The same situation is being seen with ticket offices: unless the staff cost changes, there is no financial benefit to the change. Therefore any assurances about keeping jobs or wages the same can safely be filed in the circular filing cabinet on the floor.

I can only presume that GoVia have had high level discussions with the DfT about this- we know what senior DfT staff think about railway staff- and that they have the backing of government.

I wish the guards and the drivers the very best of luck on this.

 

[northwichcat]

I don't know what it's like down in the Gatwick Express/Thameslink/Southern area but I know in the Northern area it's common for either revenue to go uncollected or the train to be delayed as a result of the guard staying on revenue duties for too long when the train is approaching a station. Both cost the TOC money (the latter incurs penalties for late running) which is why DCO is being looked at on some routes.

 

[Surreytraveller]

1. You have made it to SarahJ whether you intended to or not - if it was not intentional (and I must assume your previous wish of luck was not sarcastic), you need to be very careful how you word posts. She is merely the messenger (and possible victim), and has done nothing here to warrant such an outburst.

The way I understand the post is that the poster is wishing Sarah luck and fortune for the future, and wishing for the management to meet with karma.

Inevitably, management will meet with karma, as they are the grades most frequently mucked about with. Although not in the way the poster intended.

Also, the company is only doing as they are employed to do by the government. It is no good passengers writing to their MPs, as it is them who are dictating what is going on in the first instance.

And the drivers are understandably getting twitchy - as soon as the conductors are dealt with, that is a layer of protection to drivers' T&Cs gone, and the company will be working on the drivers next.

It seems that the company and the DfT are willing to see this through at all costs.

 

[Deepgreen]

I don't know what it's like down in the Gatwick Express/Thameslink/Southern area but I know in the Northern area it's common for either revenue to go uncollected or the train to be delayed as a result of the guard staying on revenue duties for too long when the train is approaching a station. Both cost the TOC money (the latter incurs penalties for late running) which is why DCO is being looked at on some routes.

To be fair, I don't think that happens much on GTR, but it does happen on GWR (North Downs line) and did this morning. It's more of an issue on routes with a large proportion of unstaffed stations, I think.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Both cost the TOC money (the latter incurs penalties for late running) which is why DCO is being looked at on some routes.

The execrable Alex Hynes might claim that, but let's be honest here, if the TOC gave a stuff about the lost income they'd have more staffed stations, more revenue blocks and more RPIs on trains.

The only motivation is to save the staff costs of guards. First you get rid of the guards with vague promises of "no forced redundancies or pay cuts", and then you change your mind and make them redundant after all, with the cost of redundancy cut due to the change in job breaking continuous service.

Alex Hynes and Charles Horton must think we're stupid.

 

[northwichcat]

The execrable Alex Hynes might claim that, but let's be honest here, if the TOC gave a stuff about the lost income they'd have more staffed stations, more revenue blocks and more RPIs on trains.

Northern are staffing more stations but as they are a subsided franchise they have a salary cap imposed by DfT. Therefore, Northern employees and the unions need to be careful what they wish for when they ask for more staffed stations and RPIs being brought in house and be given higher pay - more money being spent on revenue staff will mean the likelihood of recruiting more guards or staff getting above inflation pay rises is reduced.

The only motivation is to save the staff costs of guards. First you get rid of the guards with vague promises of "no forced redundancies or pay cuts", and then you change your mind and make them redundant after all, with the cost of redundancy cut due to the change in job breaking continuous service.

Doesn't work like that and I'm surprised when people are saying Aslef can prevent DOO for happening (which there are no laws preventing) but you're saying the TOC can break employment law to sack guards - that's something the unions definitely can stop.

For what you're saying to work the TOC would have to sack the guard and re-employ them as a RPI and then sack the RPI. The sacking of the guard would mean compensation equal to 1 week's pay for every year worked (unless they've been in the role for under 24 months) so someone employed for 13 years would get 1/4 of their annual salary as compensation after they've been paid for their notice period in full.

 

[tsr]

To be fair, I don't think that happens much on GTR, but it does happen on GWR (North Downs line) and did this morning. It's more of an issue on routes with a large proportion of unstaffed stations, I think.

It definitely doesn't. If anything I would say that Southern conductors have had it made perfectly clear during training that revenue issues are a distant second compared to punctuality, and you'd only usually delay a train for ticketing issues if it is also a matter of safety (eg. abusive faredodgers). This message has got through. I can't say I've heard of any significant punctuality issues caused by routine ticket sales on any Southern service over the last 2 years or so. I could be wrong, but given the intensity of the service on much of the network, I think it would have been flagged up in some way by now!

 

[Deepgreen]

Many will not want to hear it, but this is one of the painful and predictable results of privatisation, both in terms of operational fragmentation leading to more and more different agreements being in place/needed with unions to cover all the different TOCs/sub-TOCs, and the disparate (and desperate) measures to save operating costs with no well-considered national policy as a basis.

I say sub-TOCs to include the ridiculous differentiation between TL, Southern and GatEX, especially as the latter has become so diluted in terms of its supposed premium status, to the point that it now uses rolling stock which is more or less identical to the parallel Southern stock (poorer in some ways, as the 387s' seating is even worse than the 377/1s' and 377/4s'). Simply having the trains non-stop to Gatwick is not enough justification for the confusing fare structure, the different staff contracts, the different livery and so on.

 

[74A]

Is the despatch at Victoria and Gatwick platform staff and CD/RA or does the driver self despatch ?

 

[LowLevel]

This is a particularly inappropriate comment for many reasons. including;

1. You have made it to SarahJ whether you intended to or not - if it was not intentional (and I must assume your previous wish of luck was not sarcastic), you need to be very careful how you word posts. She is merely the messenger (and possible victim), and has done nothing here to warrant such an outburst.

2. The sentiment is wholly unsuitable for a discussion forum, because it is extremely aggressive and rude, not to mention threatening and offensive.

3. You have lashed out without considering the proper means to address your (very understandable) concerns about the future role of guards. The entrenched and immature attitude displayed by both elements of the growing dispute will not help anything. The point of a written forum such as this is to allow discussion in a civilised and considered way without resorting to playground tactics.

This forum should not entertain such posts and I would ask the moderators to act.

She gets it and is perfectly happy (though obviously not with the impact on her livelihood) and you know full well you chose to interpret in that manner.

If you can't understand that railway train crews are not so much politely upset as boiling with rage at the moment then that's up to you. For the last few years I've had this rubbish boiling over my head and seeing what they're doing to my colleagues elsewhere is causing me to be extremely stressed and unhappy.

There is no proper means to address anything and therein lies the problem. Unless the answer is the one the DfT wants there can be no compromise. This is why we are at the point of a company looking at sacking staff who have done nothing but their jobs as requested and reinstating them on significantly worse terms to get around a collective bargaining issue.

It's even worse as I know they'll be coming for me eventually to take away the job I love. I work hard and do everything that's asked of me and more, I've got a folder full of praise from colleagues, passengers and managers and what will it be worth when the end comes. This doesn't matter to them. It's not just a job for most of us. It gets in your blood.

Either way, my previous post may have been moderated but you know what it said and I stand by it. It is a particularly nasty trick and I hope they and their task masters at the DfT get what they deserve. These are our lives being used as a political tool.

I've not been so unhappy since I last lost a family member.

Either way I'm stepping away for a while. It's fairly obvious that the whole affair has gotten under my skin in a big way and I haven't really got any more to say about it.

 

[sarahj]

It definitely doesn't. If anything I would say that Southern conductors have had it made perfectly clear during training that revenue issues are a distant second compared to punctuality, and you'd only usually delay a train for ticketing issues if it is also a matter of safety (eg. abusive faredodgers). This message has got through. I can't say I've heard of any significant punctuality issues caused by routine ticket sales on any Southern service over the last 2 years or so. I could be wrong, but given the intensity of the service on much of the network, I think it would have been flagged up in some way by now!

Agreed. In the 8 years I've been here, delays* are mainly down to getting a wheelchair on, or disruptive passengers. You know your route, you know the landmarks for approaches to stations and you time your ticket sales to that. Sometimes the ticket might be printing as you come to a stop, but it's seconds only. 377's with a panel in each coach makes it easier than a 313 with either the middle or back, but like i say, you know your route, so....

As for Lowlevel, I did not take offence. He was aiming at those higher up than me.


* that are not track or motive power issues, or no driver.

 

[Deepgreen]

She gets it and is perfectly happy (though obviously not with the impact on her livelihood) and you know full well you chose to interpret in that manner.

If you can't understand that railway train crews are not so much politely upset as boiling with rage at the moment then that's up to you. For the last few years I've had this rubbish boiling over my head and seeing what they're doing to my colleagues elsewhere is causing me to be extremely stressed and unhappy.

There is no proper means to address anything and therein lies the problem. Unless the answer is the one the DfT wants there can be no compromise. This is why we are at the point of a company looking at sacking staff who have done nothing but their jobs as requested and reinstating them on significantly worse terms to get around a collective bargaining issue.

It's even worse as I know they'll be coming for me eventually to take away the job I love. I work hard and do everything that's asked of me and more, I've got a folder full of praise from colleagues, passengers and managers and what will it be worth when the end comes. This doesn't matter to them. It's not just a job for most of us. It gets in your blood.

Either way, my previous post may have been moderated but you know what it said and I stand by it. It is a particularly nasty trick and I hope they and their task masters at the DfT get what they deserve. These are our lives being used as a political tool.

I've not been so unhappy since I last lost a family member.

Either way I'm stepping away for a while. It's fairly obvious that the whole affair has gotten under my skin in a big way and I haven't really got any more to say about it.

Of course I understand the feelings - it's just a matter of channelling them effectively rather than scatter-gunning. To disrupt the jobs of people who take a pride in their work is very upsetting and can so often produce a morale slump that is counter-productive.

If there are dirty tricks afoot, then you do have a means to address the issue - strike. I'd support action with genuine causes and genuine backing from those affected. No guarantee that the strike would work but it's a tool.

 

[island]

Is the despatch at Victoria and Gatwick platform staff and CD/RA or does the driver self despatch ?

As far as I know they are both platform staff and CD/RA.

 

[BRblue]

It is ironic that the government/DFT and GTR seem intent on playing this out in public, and winning the backing of the passengers... the very same passengers whose safety could be jeopardised should DOO be introduced.
I know that DOO has been introduced in other parts of the country but there have been some incidents. It seems a very dangerous game to play by increasing the workload on drivers who are already working in a very safety critical invironment, when passenger numbers are increasing and capacity on many lines in the Southern area is at maximum.
We have been here before when profit and cost cutting have been put before safety, and we all know how that ended up.
I do feel we are taking a similar path here and that gives me an uneasy feeling about the future.
So for everybody knocking the Guards and the unions think long and hard about which direction you want our railways to head.... this is not only about redundancies, changes to roll/ terms and conditions, driver workload and broken agreements as some would have you believe.
This is about running a railway in the safest way possible, and in my humble opinion the first step towards the removal of guards from Southern services is a step in the wrong direction. If one life was to lost due to DOO operation then that would be too higher price to pay just to enable GTR to show a good retutn on their investment.

 

[sarahj]

There has been a very recent development in the 387/12 car/DOO saga, and not a good one. Stuff is be hitting the fan in bulk as we speak. As I post under my real name, I cannot give details, but I'm sure someone else may.




I tried to rejoin under a new name, but it would not let me do that with the same e-mail address.

 

[tony6499]

Now a letter sent out to drivers telling them they will be sent home without pay of they refuse to operate the 12 coach 387 DOO, looks like all out industrial war is to commence on GTR

 

[mbreckers]

Just saw this letter from Head of Employee Relations to drivers regarding this matter

Edit: Should say I am not an employee, these were posted on Facebook

 

[Skimble19]

As you can see our HR department (or employee relations, whatever they're calling themselves this week) have a wonderful way with words.. GTR are playing a very dangerous game, they have the support of only a very tiny minority of staff as since the franchise began they've managed to somehow alienate nearly every team they can through their frankly crappy management style.

I can't imagine the drivers reacting at all positively to the above letter.

 

[Antman]

As far as I know they are both platform staff and CD/RA.

In that case I'm not sure what the problem is? Happy to be enlighten if I'm missing something

 

[Flamingo]

Last year FGW/GWR (but they were a bit premature), this year Southern. DFT's sticky little fingerprints all over it again.

I see the same posters on here saying that staff are lucky to have a job and should just accept the empty promises, tug their forelocks and remember their place. Well you can all go to hell - it's you people that will eventually cause everybody to end up with the type of country (and transport network) you deserve, but it won't happen without good people putting up a fight against your short-termism, stupidity and narrow-mindedness.

Good luck everybody in Southern, it's everybody's fight. Don't let the buggers grind you down!

 

[HarleyDavidson]

Last year FGW/GWR (but they were a bit premature), this year Southern. DFT's sticky little fingerprints all over it again.

I see the same posters on here saying that staff are lucky to have a job and should just accept the empty promises, tug their forelocks and remember their place. Well you can all go to hell - it's you people that will eventually cause everybody to end up with the type of country (and transport network) you deserve, but it won't happen without good people putting up a fight against your short-termism, stupidity and narrow-mindedness.

Good luck everybody in Southern, it's everybody's fight. Don't let the buggers grind you down!

+1

And if they threaten to send you home, don't give them the option, just say "Fine, if you're threatening me, I'm going home, because I'm going SICK"

For the record cause of sickness = "STRESS".

 

[tsr]

I know I have posted along similar lines before, so apologies if this sounds like a broken record, but if drivers consider 12 coach DOO(P) working to be unsafe, they should refuse on safety grounds. Provided these concerns are genuine and not malicious, it would mean disciplinary action cannot be taken and they do not have to work anyway until the appropriate procedures are taken to resolve the safety concerns. I have no doubt ASLEF would be interested, but such action does not even need to involve a union. Refusal to work is documented clearly at GTR and there are very specific steps to go through, with significant levels of escalation possible and indeed in some events unavoidable.

It would be pointless to state that Thameslink already run 12 coach DOO trains; whether or not somebody else is doing it does not mean that further rollout is safe, nor that somebody else's actions are safe. An individual's safety concerns, if verifiable, should be treated independently of whether or not anyone else has raised the issue. The concerns are theirs and theirs alone...

 

[Johncleesefan]

Last year FGW/GWR (but they were a bit premature), this year Southern. DFT's sticky little fingerprints all over it again.

I see the same posters on here saying that staff are lucky to have a job and should just accept the empty promises, tug their forelocks and remember their place. Well you can all go to hell - it's you people that will eventually cause everybody to end up with the type of country (and transport network) you deserve, but it won't happen without good people putting up a fight against your short-termism, stupidity and narrow-mindedness.

Good luck everybody in Southern, it's everybody's fight. Don't let the buggers grind you down!

Yes!!...... Nail.....head.....perfect

 

[sarahj]

I know I have posted along similar lines before, so apologies if this sounds like a broken record, but if drivers consider 12 coach DOO(P) working to be unsafe, they should refuse on safety grounds. Provided these concerns are genuine and not malicious, it would mean disciplinary action cannot be taken and they do not have to work anyway until the appropriate procedures are taken to resolve the safety concerns. I have no doubt ASLEF would be interested, but such action does not even need to involve a union. Refusal to work is documented clearly at GTR and there are very specific steps to go through, with significant levels of escalation possible and indeed in some events unavoidable.

It would be pointless to state that Thameslink already run 12 coach DOO trains; whether or not somebody else is doing it does not mean that further rollout is safe, nor that somebody else's actions are safe. An individual's safety concerns, if verifiable, should be treated independently of whether or not anyone else has raised the issue. The concerns are theirs and theirs alone...

Agreed. just cause someone else thinks hitting their head with a hammer is ok, does not make it safe for you to do so.

 

[The Ham]

"DDO is unsafe" according to the feeling of railway staff vs "DDO has fewer incidents" according to TfL.

The problem is that rates of incidents are (mercifully) VERY low and even when they do happen the level of injury tends to be low, and as such it is impossible to justify by using statistics (although I have never seen any from the anti DDO side of the argument) which is safer.

It then CAN come across as the Unions arguing that retaining guards is safer as if there are fewer railway staff (who are those who fund the Unions) and so it COULD appear that the "safety" debate is being put forward to protect people's jobs.

Now to bring the debate into the wider employment debate which is ongoing where there is a school of thought that automation will overtime erode the number of people who are needed to work. There are even some who have written sci-fi where there are significant numbers of people who are unable to work (due to the extent of automation) or only work a very limited number of hours.

The logic on this could go further and states that because entry level jobs are replaced by automation that it gets harder to train people for higher level jobs and so it becomes more cost effective to also automate those jobs.

Some of the sci-fi writers have even had plot lines where the super rich try and wipe out those people who do not need to work as they see them as a drain on society.

As such today it is check out staff, tomorrow could be financial advisors, and 20 years time it could well be 50% of all jobs which we currently have (building being 3D printed, deliveries mostly being components ready to be 3D printed which reduces the number of lorries needed, automatic cars driving people around, fewer vehicles being produced as rather than owning a car and having it parked in your work car park all day you use the automatic cars like taxis, decisions which are based on simple analytical processes such as mortgage applications being done by computers and so on). Those jobs which are left would be mostly creative, R&D and things which would be hard to automate (i.e. hairdressing) or be self service.

As such it could not just be railway staff which are reduced in number over time, if that is the case it could well be that the public are less supportive of railway workers in such issues going forward if they see them just protecting themselves.

 

[HarleyDavidson]

You usually find that as soon as you mention the S-Word that management will change their minds. Because if something goes wrong and you go to court and mention the S-Word and you say that I was coerced into doing it, it's them that get the proverbial book thrown at them, not you.

 

[HLE]

Well that's going to go down well.

Typical of this government and 'modern' management methods GTR employ.

Refuse to do something and be threatened with disciplinary action.

Yet again those above in power believing they can do what they like.
What a 'chap' who thinks employees are to be treated like kids. Probably won't stand up to his gaffers for fear of receiving the same sort of letter.If only everyone had the backbone of the railway unions then the unemployment figure may well be a lot less than it is.

To the driver who originally refused : well done that man

All opinions are my own

 

[BRblue]

"DDO is unsafe" according to the feeling of railway staff vs "DDO has fewer incidents" according to TfL.

The problem is that rates of incidents are (mercifully) VERY low and even when they do happen the level of injury tends to be low, and as such it is impossible to justify by using statistics (although I have never seen any from the anti DDO side of the argument) which is safer.

It then CAN come across as the Unions arguing that retaining guards is safer as if there are fewer railway staff (who are those who fund the Unions) and so it COULD appear that the "safety" debate is being put forward to protect people's jobs.

Now to bring the debate into the wider employment debate which is ongoing where there is a school of thought that automation will overtime erode the number of people who are needed to work. There are even some who have written sci-fi where there are significant numbers of people who are unable to work (due to the extent of automation) or only work a very limited number of hours.

The logic on this could go further and states that because entry level jobs are replaced by automation that it gets harder to train people for higher level jobs and so it becomes more cost effective to also automate those jobs.

Some of the sci-fi writers have even had plot lines where the super rich try and wipe out those people who do not need to work as they see them as a drain on society.

As such today it is check out staff, tomorrow could be financial advisors, and 20 years time it could well be 50% of all jobs which we currently have (building being 3D printed, deliveries mostly being components ready to be 3D printed which reduces the number of lorries needed, automatic cars driving people around, fewer vehicles being produced as rather than owning a car and having it parked in your work car park all day you use the automatic cars like taxis, decisions which are based on simple analytical processes such as mortgage applications being done by computers and so on). Those jobs which are left would be mostly creative, R&D and things which would be hard to automate (i.e. hairdressing) or be self service.

As such it could not just be railway staff which are reduced in number over time, if that is the case it could well be that the public are less supportive of railway workers in such issues going forward if they see them just protecting themselves.

Let me make this easy for you.... one fully safety trained member of staff on board.... the driver. If the train has the misfortune of hitting something, first person to be incapacitated the aforementioned driver. Leaving nobody on train aware of railway safety protocols.
But hey... who cares about safety! :roll::roll:

 

[sarahj]

That letter was posted on a closed facebook forum, which someone then posted on a open facebook forum and ended up here. I wondered how long it would take to be out in public. I hummed and errred for about 20 mins before posting my post and the moment I posted, there it was.

Many folks see this is a simple way. The T&C and DRI's agreed with the company have no DOO over 10 car. and thats all I am going to say.