Glasgow Queen Street refurbishment and remodelling

[swt_passenger]

Do some ASDO systems not work with beacons so that the train "knows" how long the platform its sitting in is?

They might not be a sophisticated as that, I've no first-hand experience of them.

Yes they can. That's how the system recently fitted on the SWT network does it, there are passive devices (known as 'balises') in the four foot at all platform entries that the train reads by wireless, so that it knows which station the train is in, which platform and the direction of travel - because operational lengths can vary by direction of travel depending on signal positions.

An earlier ASDO system used on Southern generally uses GPS to define the station location, with beacons added as an extra when there's a need to define individual platforms as being different lengths, or when the GPS is obstructed.

In the SWT trainbourne equipment, the 450/444 ASDO is combined with the Train Management System, (TMS) and the system still relies on the driver stopping at the correct mark, as only the leading cab reads the data. In the older 458/5s though, the ASDO system is separate to the TMS, and every individual carriage has a reader, so the scheme on them is that all carriages that pass the balise have their doors opened.

 

[380101]

If I was running things, I would have the drivers stay in the cab in order to learn it. By the end of May there wouldn't be any more need for the freight drivers.

It's Scotrail drivers that are driving. The DB cargo drivers are only route conducting. For the Scotrail drivers to learn the route they would need to drive it several times a day for at least a week with a driving instructor who signs the route before they could sign the route. This is not practical for a temporary diversion that the drivers will never drive again once the engineering work is complete. It's more financially practical and less resource demanding to use DB cargo drivers, who at the moment really don't have much work in Scotland so it benefits Scotrail and DB cargo equally.
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Do some ASDO systems not work with beacons so that the train "knows" how long the platform its sitting in is?

They might not be a sophisticated as that, I've no first-hand experience of them.

The 380 system is GPS based and I imagine the 385 will be the same. All stations on all routes the 380's are cleared for are in the system. The default mode when in multiple is 5 cars if it's at an unknown station so it can be used on platforms that accommodate 6x20m cars. For example Fairlie, West Kilbride, Dalry, Glengarnock, Lochwinnoch, Howwood and Miliken Park are all 5 coaches only for a 380 multiple.

 

[najaB]

It's Scotrail drivers that are driving. The DB cargo drivers are only route conducting.

That makes a big difference. Agree then that there's no point in ScotRail's drivers learning the route.

 

[Altnabreac]

Judging by the court of public opinion on Twitter it all seems to have gone fairly smoothly so far.

I'm sure there will be days when it all goes wrong but it does seem to working at the moment.

 

[NSEFAN]

On a scale of 1 to Blackpool North, how much are people being hurried on and off the low level platforms at Queen Street with the current crowd control measures? It'd be nice to get a few pictures of diverted services there.

 

[Chrism20]

Judging by the court of public opinion on Twitter it all seems to have gone fairly smoothly so far.

I'm sure there will be days when it all goes wrong but it does seem to working at the moment.

I was in the 13:15 from Edinburgh to Falkirk High earlier and was talking to the guard and the woman with the trolley and they both said it had worked well so far.

I did think though that the train was very quiet though. It was a six car 170 and I reckon you could have got everyone on a two car 156 and still have spare seats. Possibly just the slowdown for Easter or people have switched to road or via Bathgate service but it was very quiet even for that time of the day.

There were plenty of announcements that the service would be diverted via anniesland and that it would take approximately twenty five minutes longer.

 

[47271]

On a scale of 1 to Blackpool North, how much are people being hurried on and off the low level platforms at Queen Street with the current crowd control measures? It'd be nice to get a few pictures of diverted services there.

I didn't take a picture but arrived and got off at QS LL from Partick in the evening peak (1715ish) on Tuesday, it was an Edinburgh train I was on as I recall. There were a lot of people waiting to get on, but no more so than usual at that time of day I'd say. I was very quickly and firmly redirected by a member of staff - the place is swarming with them - when I turned left out of habit towards the Dundas Street exit, and so left the station via Hanover Street per the temporary system. As I walked back along George Street I could see that the queuing 'marquees' in Dundas Street were fairly busy but far from overwhelmed.

All in all, everything seemed to be calm, professional and under control. Likewise coming and going from Central was smooth, other than my train back to Perth reaching its platform only a minute or so before departure. There were plenty of seats so this wasn't a problem, and it does seem that by starting the closure and bedding it in during the Easter holiday period has been a smart move.

Just a word of warning to RTT fans joining Aberdeen and Inverness trains at Central, the platforms for the diverted services don't seem to be feeding through correctly, even after departure, so rely on the system even less than usual to get ahead of the crowd for boarding!

 

[gsnedders]

There's been pictures of platform demolition posted on Twitter; I didn't realise this was planned. What's the need to demolish the existing platforms?

Also: they are extending the platforms now, right? There seems to be contradictory statements in this thread. (If they aren't, what is the necessity to close the whole concourse and its shops?)

 

[najaB]

Also: they are extending the platforms now, right? There seems to be contradictory statements in this thread. (If they aren't, what is the necessity to close the whole concourse and its shops?)

As I understand it, they are taking advantage of the closure to do preparatory work for the platform extensions so the whole concourse is a bit of a building site.

 

[Class 170101]

There's been pictures of platform demolition posted on Twitter; I didn't realise this was planned. What's the need to demolish the existing platforms?

Also: they are extending the platforms now, right? There seems to be contradictory statements in this thread. (If they aren't, what is the necessity to close the whole concourse and its shops?)

If the station is being re-signalled does this mean that the platforms have to be shortened back (and consequently extended at the George Street end) to provide the required standback distances from signals and the between the signals and the station throat layout at the tunnel mouth?

 

[NotATrainspott]

Planning application 16/00592/DC on Glasgow City Council's planning application portal details the new platform edge and OHLE arrangement (as 'Proposed Layout Plan'). All the country ends of the platforms are being completely rebuilt to fit around a new design for the station throat. It might not be a 'sexy' project like electrification or platform lengthenings but these track layout upgrades are clearly essential as the station gets busier and busier. The biggest single change appears to be that the short platform to the west is being moved hard against the wall and extended back into the current operations depot location.

 

[sng7]

According to scotrail on twitter the other day the plan is to extend the platforms now whilst the station is closed and cover the extensions temporarily until the new concourse is ready.

 

[Philip Phlopp]

Planning application 16/00592/DC on Glasgow City Council's planning application portal details the new platform edge and OHLE arrangement (as 'Proposed Layout Plan'). All the country ends of the platforms are being completely rebuilt to fit around a new design for the station throat. It might not be a 'sexy' project like electrification or platform lengthenings but these track layout upgrades are clearly essential as the station gets busier and busier. The biggest single change appears to be that the short platform to the west is being moved hard against the wall and extended back into the current operations depot location.

There are also drawings (current and future) on the TAWS section of the project website.

 

[PaxVobiscum]

The biggest single change appears to be that the short platform to the west is being moved hard against the wall and extended back into the current operations depot location.

I was wondering what that was marked with spray paint on the ballast to the right in this picture. It's not quite against the wall (and I hope the curve would be laid a bit better than that ). Is it a cable run or drainage route perhaps?

 

[Carntyne]

It's for the new drainage route.

 

[PaxVobiscum]

Thanks for that, Carntyne.

Next question - I had an inclination for Cowlairs myself as it was sunny this morning. Is this a Thermite welding job about to take place? It looked like the new track on the up line is being welded on to the existing crossover at OB 123.

 

[najaB]

Is this a Thermite welding job about to take place?

Certainly looks like it.

 

[mcmad]

Looks like the weld as already happened and they''re just about to trim it.

The first 3 weeks are largely the (non EGIP) delivered trackworks from the portal to Cowlairs West junction including the renewal and refurbishment of most of the S&c.

 

[92002]

Looks like the weld as already happened and they''re just about to trim it.

The first 3 weeks are largely the (non EGIP) delivered trackworks from the portal to Cowlairs West junction including the renewal and refurbishment of most of the S&c.

The weld in the photograph has taken place and the machine is being used to strip the excess from the weld. When this has been completely done the weld will be ground to profile to complete the process.

If you look at the other rail you can see another weld with its moulds still attached.

 

[NSEFAN]

Just been out on a day trip to Glasgow and can echo the comments of 47271. During the middle of the day Queen Street low level was reasonably quiet, so anyone who wants to get pictures at the low level station should do so during this quieter time. The queuing system was in full operation when I later went to catch the 1652 to Alloa, although it was running smoothly and was clearing working as intended.

 

[47271]

This looks like the first time it's gone wrong, very bad news for those travelling in from Dunblane or Alloa earlier on but the regular Low Level services seem to have been largely unaffected thankfully.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-35967167

A signalling fault has caused severe delays to commuter train services across central Scotland.

ScotRail said the fault with the signalling had affected the system between Springburn and Ashfield.

The problem hit routes serving Glasgow, Edinburgh, Stirling and several other stations - with cancellations and delays of more than an hour.

It comes at a time when tunnel works at Glasgow Queen Street is already affecting services through Glasgow.

 

[gsnedders]

I presume the drivers don't have the route knowledge to run down the Airdrie–Bathgate line, to at least keep end-to-end journeys to Edinburgh at the same frequency?

 

[Markos72]

The SSI system shut down in the early hours.

 

[Carntyne]

I presume the drivers don't have the route knowledge to run down the Airdrie–Bathgate line, to at least keep end-to-end journeys to Edinburgh at the same frequency?

There's not enough capacity to run the E&G via Airdrie as well, 170s aren't cleared either afaik.

 

[gsnedders]

There's not enough capacity to run the E&G via Airdrie as well, 170s aren't cleared either afaik.

Ah, the 170s not being cleared would make sense. I'm surprised there isn't the capacity, given there's currently only a half-hourly service via Falkirk High.

 

[me123]

Ah, the 170s not being cleared would make sense. I'm surprised there isn't the capacity, given there's currently only a half-hourly service via Falkirk High.

THere's already 4tph stopping down that line. Combined with an additional 2tph terminating at Airdrie (from Glasgow) and 2tph from Dunblane (to Edinburgh), it would be very difficult to fit these in. If they were to run, they'd definitely be caught behind stopping trains, which would not actually deliver any real time savings.

 

[gsnedders]

THere's already 4tph stopping down that line. Combined with an additional 2tph terminating at Airdrie (from Glasgow) and 2tph from Dunblane (to Edinburgh), it would be very difficult to fit these in. If they were to run, they'd definitely be caught behind stopping trains, which would not actually deliver any real time savings.

No, they wouldn't deliver any time savings, but that wasn't the point: the point was capacity when the Falkirk High services were all cancelled.

[Edit: I realise looking above it wasn't clear from my post yesterday that I meant it in response to the signalling fault, not the general months of disruption.]

 

[adrock1976]

Ah, the 170s not being cleared would make sense. I'm surprised there isn't the capacity, given there's currently only a half-hourly service via Falkirk High.

The reason why the Edinburgh & Glasgow Railway services via Falkirk High have been reduced to the old frequency of every 30 minutes is because of the balloon loop route that is took around north Glasgow.

Journeys to Glasgow QS run as far as Bishopbriggs, then diverge onto the Maryhill Park line (Glasgow, Dumbarton, & Helensburgh Railway) at Cowlairs, continue to Anniesland, and then via Partick and Charing Cross to QS low level.

Journeys from Glasgow QS to Edinburgh travel via Glasgow City & District Railway to Bellgrove, then diverge onto the City Union Railway and continue via Springburn, and then rejoining the E&GR at Cowlairs.

The local all stations service that runs between Glasgow QS - Stirling/Alloa/Dunblane operates the opposite way around the balloon loop.

To enable the above services to run through Partick, there had to be a slight reduction in service frequency on routes via Glasgow Central low level. Normally, there is a 10 minute frequency along the common section between Rutherglen and Hyndland, however, 2 of these services (Dalmuir via Yoker I believe) have been cut back to Anderston, leaving a 10/20 minute frequency between Rutherglen and Hyndland.

Running an additional 2 trains per hour (limited stop) via Bathgate and Airdrie would be problematic, as the frequency is every 15 minutes between EDB and Bathgate, calling all stations. 2 of these services (the Milngavie services) then call Drumgelloch, Airdrie, Coatbridge Sunnyside, High Street, then all stations to Milngavie. The other 2 services continue to Helensburgh Central, calling all stations to Hyndland, then Dalmuir, Dumbarton East, then all stations. Furthermore, there is the Airdrie - Balloch service via Westerton, calling all stations. The suggested limited stop would not be any quicker, due to it catching up the all stations stopping services, plus there would be nowhere for the train to turn around to head back east.

 

[me123]

No, they wouldn't deliver any time savings, but that wasn't the point: the point was capacity when the Falkirk High services were all cancelled.

[Edit: I realise looking above it wasn't clear from my post yesterday that I meant it in response to the signalling fault, not the general months of disruption.]

The Falkirk High services are not running for the benefit of Edinburgh to Glasgow passengers, they are running purely to maintain connectivity between the intermediate stations. In terms of the overall plan, there should have been no impact on E-G passengers who should already be using the route via Airdrie (or a service from Central). There is no need to enhance capacity on the route via Airdrie when the purpose of the service is for passengers at Croy, Falkirk High, Linlithgow and Polmont.

As has been said, the 170s cannot run via Airdrie. They're not cleared for the route, and I doubt any drivers sign both 170s and the route required. 334s would be an option, but I would imagine that they are already being pushed to cover the Airdrie-Bathgate route (with longer trains in some instances), and I can't imagine there'd be anywhere near enough trains available for an additional half hourly service to Edinburgh.

 

[edwin_m]

I'm rather surprised if the effectively new Airdrie-Bathgate route isn't cleared for all possible types of stock. Or is the problem for 170s actually on the older section between Airdrie and Glasgow?