Railtalk mag article: Simplification of fares

[Matt Taylor]

It's a case of the emperor's new clothes. In my area all that has changed is the names of the tickets and not the restrictions. Customers using TVMs don't know what they are doing because SDRs and CDRs are no longer available, revenue staff are confused about what is what-not helped by a big lack of briefings.

In fact some staff's training on the new tickets was simply reading the stickers on the TVMs!!




Matt

 

[yorkie]

So David Mapp's prediction of everyone "Buying in confidence" proved to be totally untrue. But this is the same person who says anyone who buys Savers should buy CDs instead :roll:

Anyway, I have uploaded Part 2 of the article, so if anyone hasn't already read it in Railtalk mag, go to page 1 and have a read of it. I've tried to keep it as easy-to-understand as possible, despite ATOCs best efforts to make it complicated

 

[OwlMan]

LM ticket restrictions LK-Super Off Peak ; SK - Off Peak

Restriction : LK
MONDAYS to FRIDAYS:

OUTWARD TRAVEL
Not valid for travel on trains timed to arrive at London Terminals before 1300
RETURN TRAVEL
Not valid for travel on trains timed to depart London Terminals before 1030
Not valid for travel on trains
timed to depart between 1630 and 1930.

SATURDAYS, SUNDAYS and BANK
HOLIDAYS:

By any train.


Restriction : SK
Outward Travel
Valid on any London Midland train scheduled to arrive London Midland terminals at or after 1000 Mondays-Fridays.
Not valid for travel from London Terminals before 0845.

Return Travel
By any London Midland train.

 

[will1337]

Thanks Collybs, although if anyone wants one book on NXEC now and reserve seats.

 

[furryfeet]

do these restrictions apply even if one is NOT travelling to / from london ?

i.e. does this prevent me buying an 'LK' restriction ticket for say Tamworth to Crewe on a train that has left euston at 1029 ?

 

[yorkie]

do these restrictions apply even if one is NOT travelling to / from london ?

i.e. does this prevent me buying an 'LK' restriction ticket for say Tamworth to Crewe on a train that has left euston at 1029 ?

Is that what the restriction is for that ticket? I'd be surprised if it is.

 

[87015]

Is that what the restriction is for that ticket? I'd be surprised if it is.

The restriction doesn't line up with what is being offered. Ticket machines say the ticket is 'valid on off peak trains' but states no time restrictions - so there are none on a Leighton-Liverpool. Where ticket restrictions exist (ie CDR to Euston) 'not valid on trains arriving before 1000' is shown on the machines. NXEc and Nat Rail also show as valid on 0524 ex Euston and 1737 ex Liverpool (via Brum both ways).

It is available from machines at 07xx so no sign of any northbound morning restriction.

 

[me123]

An adverse effect of "Simplification" has hit me for the first time. Today, I was buying a Blairhill-Airdrie return with my railcard. Usually costs £1.10, however today he charged me £1.40 and gave me an "Anytime Day Return". I enquired and was told that this was now the only fare available. Bearing in mind it was after 11am...

However a quick check on the NXEC website shows that "Off Peak Return" fares are available with the railcard at £1.10. Obviously this contradicts what I was told at the ticket office and concurs with what I had originally thought to be correct. Obviously, I was therefore mis-sold the ticket. Possibly lack of staff training with the new fares?

Whatever the cause, FSR will be getting an e-mail. Whilst I appreciate that this is only a 30p loss, the loss could have been so much greater if the same principle was applied on a more expensive ticket, eg to Edinburgh. In fact, my mother was travelling to Glasgow today and was sold an "Anytime" ticket by (presumably) the same ticket officer at about 10am and lost a bit more again (this time £1.30).

The only thing I do like about the new fares is the names; "Anytime" does seem quite a neat name (to me anyway). However, if it's going to cause confusion, well there's something wrong there.

 

[mjon3105]

Until 7th Sept, my Boundary Zone 6 - Haywards Heath RETURN ticket OFF PEAK cost me £5.80 per day. Fearing that 7th Sept may bring nasty shocks I enquired in advance at the Southern ticket office at East Croydon on 5th Sept if the fare would change. NO ... I was assured as it was an OFF PEAK train I always caught .

Come 7th, I purchased same ticket as always with Freedom Pass + Disabled Persons Railcard (after 0930) and was told price was now £6.65., but i could travel ANYTIME (But I could before 7 Sept I said, without response). Ticket office said did not understand why...so contacted Southern HQ who said "would have to enquire why" themselves.... Still waiting to hear outcome of their enquiries..... Anyone have any idea why? ... other than "simplicfication"?...Thanks.... Baffled and Bewildered of Croydon....

 

[devon_metro]

BOUNDARY ZONE 6 - HAYWARDS HEATH

FDS 14.60 (First Anytime)
FDR 29.20 (First Off Peak)
FCR 15.10 (First Off Peak Day)
SDS 9.40 (Anytime Single)
SDR 10.10 (Anytime Return)
CDR 10.10 (Off Peak Day Return)*

Adult fares

Off peak day return (same price as anytime :?) carries Restriction B1

B1

Outward Travel

Return Travel

By any train except those timed to depart Mondays-Fridays before 0930.

By any train

 

[digitaltoast]

Well, it looks like the next round of simplification has removed even MORE cheap fares!
OK, the fare I was looking at (RG - BHM) is still shown, but while there used to be a reasonable amount of advance availability, I've just spent a little while going through the National Rail cheap ticket finder, looking for offpeak times, starting 1st October, and I can only find ONE day (a Sunday...useless) out of the 5 weeks of searching with a £6.50 fare available.

Before the last round of simplification, if I ever had to do that journey I could usually find at least two tickets every day, looking only 3 days ahead.

Shafted again.

 

[digitaltoast]

I got pointed in this direction by the moderator, so excuse "double posting"!

Look at the attached: RDG>BHM

The CHEAPER ticket is the peak travel one!! Now I'm really confused - does this make sense? Reading from National Rail, this doesn't seem right.

Off-Peak fares are cheaper tickets for travelling on trains that are less busy.
Offering good value for money, these tickets may require you to travel at specific times of day, days of the week or on a specific route. Where there is more than one Off-Peak fare for a journey, the cheaper fare with more restrictions will be called Super Off-Peak.

Anytime fares are fully flexible tickets, with no time restrictions on when you can travel. Perfect for people who need complete flexibility.

I don't see exactly the same issue in this thread - sorry if I'm being thick!

 

[Edvid]

Don't know how you got that. :???: I tried the same journey in all four journey planners (NXEC, Trainline, Raileasy, and NRES) and all four say that an Anytime Single costs £34, an Off Peak Return costs £39.80 and an Anytime Return costs £68.

In the case of Raileasy, the cheapest return prices (as advertised) are actually for 2 Advance singles bought together. And of course the cheapest single prices are for Advance singles.

I have attached a .doc file with screenshots.

 

[digitaltoast]

Well there you go! Just goes to prove they don't always show the same fare - 'scuse my not knowing, but what's NRES?

The site I got that price from it http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/ - I just tried it again, and same thing - anytime is cheaper than offpeak! Weeeeeird....

 

[Edvid]

NRES happens to be National Rail (Enquiries) itself!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I've just realised that when you expand the fares list by clicking on 'More available fares', the Off-Peak 'single' at £39.80 is really the Off-Peak Return I mentioned earlier - perhaps the journey planner is 'compelled' to offer an Off-Peak ticket for a single journey despite the fact that an Off-Peak Single doesn't actually exist for the journey at all!

 

[mjon3105]

To update post 39 query here is the response from Southern received today:

""



""Thank you for contacting us about the recent increase in your rail fare. Please
accept my apologies for the delay in replying.

Traditionally, the main review of rail fares each year takes place towards the
year-end and increases are implemented early in January. However, there have always
been two other occasions each year when a small range of other adjustments would
also be made, sometimes to correct anomalies and sometimes to raise fares which
previously represented too low a charge when compared with other similar fares in
the locality. These other two occasions have generally been in May and September.


We are aware, of course, that the recent publicity about the policy decision to
simplify fares also states that fares would not be increased as a result of that
policy and this remains so. The increases we have implemented recently are not
related to that policy change and in your personal case arise because the fare
concerned was due to be increased in January but was overlooked at that time.

Once again, please accept my apologies for the delay in replying.

Regards

Richard Lancaster
Southern Customer Services

Until 7th Sept, my Boundary Zone 6 - Haywards Heath RETURN ticket OFF PEAK cost me £5.80 per day. Fearing that 7th Sept may bring nasty shocks I enquired in advance at the Southern ticket office at East Croydon on 5th Sept if the fare would change. NO ... I was assured as it was an OFF PEAK train I always caught .

Come 7th, I purchased same ticket as always with Freedom Pass + Disabled Persons Railcard (after 0930) and was told price was now £6.65., but i could travel ANYTIME (But I could before 7 Sept I said, without response). Ticket office said did not understand why...so contacted Southern HQ who said "would have to enquire why" themselves.... Still waiting to hear outcome of their enquiries..... Anyone have any idea why? ... other than "simplicfication"?...Thanks.... Baffled and Bewildered of Croydon....

 

[digitaltoast]

We are aware, of course, that the recent publicity about the policy decision to
simplify fares also states that fares would not be increased as a result of that
policy and this remains so. The increases we have implemented recently are not
related to that policy change and in your personal case arise because the fare
concerned was due to be increased in January but was overlooked at that time.

I am almost gagging on the over-whelming stench of bull**** from that letter and I don't believe there's anything I could write that could give that letter the level of derision it truly deserves. They really do think we're imbeciles, don't they?

 

[dan_atki]

It is true though, and I made a point of this circumstance: http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?p=239514&post=239514

 

[Mojo]

I got pointed in this direction by the moderator, so excuse "double posting"!

Look at the attached: RDG>BHM

The CHEAPER ticket is the peak travel one!! Now I'm really confused - does this make sense? Reading from National Rail, this doesn't seem right.

I don't see exactly the same issue in this thread - sorry if I'm being thick!

The RDG to BHM journey mentioned above, for some reason when you only opt to have a single journey, the interface also displays the Off-peak Return. I don't know, but I assume this is because there are some circumstances when an Off-peak Single doesn't exist and it may be cheaper to buy an Off-Peak return than an Anytime single.

You'd have thought though, that for simplicity, they wouldn't bother to show it, given that all it requires is a check on whether the Anytime is higher or lower than the Off-peak.

I've also raised an issue elsewhere on this forum, whereby a Rover will be shown in the Off-peak section for singles or returns. This looks rather odd when (in the case I seem to remember quoting) an Anytime is quoted as £3.49 and an Off-peak £60.00!

 

[djw1981]

I am almost gagging on the over-whelming stench of bull**** from that letter and I don't believe there's anything I could write that could give that letter the level of derision it truly deserves. They really do think we're imbeciles, don't they?

The problem is that of two simultaneous rocesses - regular periodic fare increases, and ticket renaming. It would of course be more sensible if ATOC members had agreed not to change fares in 2008 after the January fare increases, so that only the ticket renaming would be going on, but c'est la vie.

Of course in some areas there is an attempt at genuine simplification. In Scotland, we used to have SPT fares, which were generally lower*, set to a different rate of increase, and a different date of increase, compared to the rest of Scotland. With the change for PTE to regional transport functions, and the rail franchise responsibilities being taken on by Transport Scotland, and the coming together of SR & SPT into one rail network (see re-branding etc) several fare anomalies have come to light (i.e. Glasgow-Stirling was approx half the price of Glasgow-Dunblane, which was 10 miles further up the line. With this in mind, FSR are starting to look at a way of changing the Fare Structure to try and make it equitable across all of Scotland with the same rate of increase, and the same date of fare increase (otherwise they were getting double the amount of adverse publicity).

Thankfully the main implementation of this hs been to postponed to next year, whilst they sort out the ticket renaming fiasco.


*for a set distance

 

[digitaltoast]

It is true though, and I made a point of this circumstance: http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?p=239514&post=239514

It's true that they're all lying!
I have the proof - for anyone that hasn't heard it, listen to the first 20 seconds of the file on this page:
http://www.digitaltoast.co.uk/simplified-train-fares-ripoff-scam-price-rises

Pretty clear response there, I think!

 

[yorkie]

Brilliant! ATOC blame the TOCs; the TOCs blame ATOC. It's like a pantomime!!

 

[furryfeet]

I am almost gagging on the over-whelming stench of bull**** from that letter and I don't believe there's anything I could write that could give that letter the level of derision it truly deserves. They really do think we're imbeciles, don't they?

agreed - they really do think we are stupid. Reminds me of when central trains put up car parking fees at Tamworth from nothing to £4.00 per day in November, "to avoid confusion with the normal fares rise in January" !
So now no-one parks there at Weekends.

What is readily apparent is the TOCs willingness to use any opportunity to put up the fares as many times a year as they can.
As long as they can get away with it, they will do !

When are ministers going to realise that transport price rises have just a big impact on peoples pockets as rises in gas or electric ?

And then ACT upon it i.e. impose regulation ?

Do any other forum members know whether this is being discussed in political circles e.g. the labour conference ?

 

[Mojo]

Do any other forum members know whether this is being discussed in political circles e.g. the labour conference ?

I wouldn't bet on it. The present Labour party and the Lib Dems are anti-rail and would probably love to see the back of it. There may be something coming up in the Transport Select Committee.

 

[digitaltoast]

I wouldn't bet on it. The present Labour party and the Lib Dems are anti-rail and would probably love to see the back of it.

Yeah, I had a quick google news search - nothing changes!

http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1-81160012.html Article date: December 22, 2001

TRAIN services in Britain are worse now than when Labour came to power in 1997, transport secretary Stephen Byers has admitted.

But he said his decision to place Railtrack in administration would produce noticeable improvements in punctuality, safety and comfort in time for the next general election.

Unfortunately for passengers, the decline in service quality in the past four years has not been reflected in the train fares charged

http://www.socialistreview.org.uk/article.php?articlenumber=10349

Thus, despite party manifesto pledges, New Labour continued with the privatisation agenda until, under intensified public pressure, then transport minister Stephen Byers was forced on 5 October 2001 to bring Railtrack into administration under a "not for profit company", Network Rail.

Nevertheless, New Labour pressed full steam ahead, not only continuing Tory policies but actually extending the privatisation agenda. It was Gordon Brown who forced through the Public Private Partnership (PPP) on London Underground. This time "separating wheel from steel" has already witnessed five derailments, two in one weekend.

PPP really put the con in contract. Most spectacularly, Metronet, representing two thirds of the contract, was forced into administration on 18 July last year when it ran up debts of £2 billion - a debt that Gordon Brown has written off with public money.

How ironic - as I type this, I am listening to Radio 4 and the sound of Gordon Brown filling his pants earlier...

 

[Mojo]

Just heard on Newsnight that Ruth Kelly might be leaving in a cabinet reshuffle. But it's always the same with any Government over the last few years (Labour & the Conservatives) that a Transport Secretary is almost always (bar one major exception) someone on either their way up, or down.

I'm not exactly sure that privitisation is the main cause of the problem, especially in the newer franchises, but the excessive regulation and tinkering with the Infracos doesn't help.

 

[digitaltoast]

Just heard on Newsnight that Ruth Kelly might be leaving in a cabinet reshuffle.

Hmmm ... what's he going to do now?

 

[djw1981]

Go back to Godbothering?

Anyway... Tom Harris, a fairly good (by recent standards) Minister of State has been yapping about Gordon, so might find himself on the way out as well! The modal agnosticism of the DfT is part of the problem, as is the removal of any remaining teeth from Passenger Focus.

Fares is a complex issue, which does not lend itself to MP soundbites, so apart from the dilligent few - the late Gwynneth Dunwoody, Louise Ellman, Eric Martlew and Philip Holobourne, few have the time, inclination or opportunity to understand it and holds ministers, civil servants and company bosses to account. Sadly, they cannot force DfT to change its ways, merely hold up its actions for all to see.

 

[dan_atki]

Brilliant! ATOC blame the TOCs; the TOCs blame ATOC. It's like a pantomime!!

Yes, thing is ATOC (whilst not able to price fares themselves) let the TOCs have complete reign over anything they wanted to do be it rises (and blame it under the September increase - totally unethical in my opinion), restricting ticket types in a way that nobody can understand them, or simply saying 'look, we need an Advance, an Anytime, and an Off-peak fare - please get back to us' with offering no guidance at all. So they're both at fault: ATOC for not being strict enough and the TOCs for attempting whatever they like.

They want people to have confidence in the new system - and if it wasn't for all the stupid range of restrictions we could start moving towards that! Is it really that hard to set a common set of restrictions on the use of tickets:

Advance: bought upto 1800 day before travel on longer journeys, offering cheaper fares the further in advance booked
Anytime Day: travel out and return by any train before 0230 the following day (M-F only - never to be sold for journeys wholly on Saturday/Sunday/PH when Off-Peak is sufficient)
Anytime: travel out and return by any service within a calendar month upto 0230 on the day after the expiry date on the ticket
Off-Peak Day: travel out and return after 0930 (M-F - anytime Saturday/Sunday/PH) and before 0230 the following day
Off-Peak: travel out and return on services after 0930 within a calendar month and before 0230 on the day after the expiry date on the ticket
(maybe Super Off-Peak Day: travel out after 0930 and return at a time other than 1630-1900, but before 0230 the following day)*

*or something else which could equally take into consideration evening peak restrictions (hence my same outward validity as an off-peak).

Maybe 3 tiers of advance fares, a decision on whether Days or Months (in this case no super off peaks should exist) should be used for a flow and then at most there will be 6 ticket types for such journeys - 3 of which are walk up (an Anytime, an Off-Peak, and a Super Off-Peak) and each has their own set of distinct restrictions which are the same nationally. Anytimes trully are any times and off peaks really are off peaks.

Price wise:

(Advance (1) (< Advance 2 (< Advance 3))) (< Super Off-Peak Day) < Off-Peak (Day) < Anytime (Day)

In places were there is not advance and super off peak is not necessary then there will be 2 fares for a journey - much simpler for everyone. BoJ valid on all portions of all tickets except Advance.

Appropriate railcards need to be valid on all tickets for a flow and YP minimum fares need to be such that they are appropriate for the ticket type - £16 return (anytime/off peak/super off peak) and £8 single (anytime/off peak/super off peak) before 1000 seems reasonable enough as was a rule of thumb before.

Restriction codes (seem to be private and for TOCs' eyes only) need to be scrapped altogether as they do nobody any favours IMO, and make matters a whole lot worse. 8A on SVRs may be our friends because of the 'any train' 'restriction' but if the fares structure really would be much simpler I'm sure we could live without it.

HOW HARD CAN THIS BE TO IMPLEMENT!? With a few guidelines set by ATOC it should be child's play rather than the farce we have experienced. It'll make their own (and their members' + employees' for that matter) jobs a whole lot easier, and passengers really will have the confidence they are buying the cheapest ticket for their journey.

They need lobbied into doing something and a heavy price to pay if they don't. How this is achieved is a slightly different matter and one I welcome you to give feasible suggestions to. Even if it means bugging all our MPs...

 

[Donny Dave]

Before "simplification" ....

Scunthorpe - Doncaster £8.20 CDR, valid on the 0817 Northern service as it arrived in Doncaster after 9am.

Scunthorpe - Manchester Stations £26.40 SVR valid on the 0810 TPE

After ....

Scunthorpe - Doncaster Off-Peak Day for £8.50 Not valid until the 1010 TPE service as there is now a 1030 arrival restriction at Doncaster. Not much of a change ....

Scunthorpe - Manchester Off-Peak £26.40, valid on the 0810 TPE. No change there