Manchester Piccadilly Chaos 13-03

[Bletchleyite]

They are back on.

 

[Essexman]

We would normally go by train but fearing just this we drove to the match for Essex - parked at Altringham and took tram to Old Trafford which worked well.

It was an entirely predictable scenario. Thousands of fans who had travelled up on many trains on Saturday on Sunday all wanting to return on a few services after the match. The police and Virgin would have been aware of this but it seems they couldn't cope. It could have been avoided by putting on special trains. Spurs, Arsenal & Chelsea do this but West Ham care little for their travelling fans so refuse to organise them.

 

[azz7008]

I'd rather just not have these people travel 200 miles just to see a ball being kicked around. Then no transport suffers, road or rail.

There seemed to be a lot of football-related trouble yesterday in London. Where I am we had several groups on trains causing trouble (smashing bottles and being a general nuisance). In the event staff refused to move the trains until the problem people were ejected by BTP. As usual the regular passengers suffered, firstly having to put up with the rowdiness, then the delay waiting for BTP.

It's always a pain when Arsenal play in the evening. A normally half-full train becomes crush loaded from Finsbury Park. The saving grace is that because they all pile on at Finsbury Park all the regular passengers are already seated from King's Cross, so it's mostly only the football people who have to stand. As well as causing the train to be cramped and noisy, it also means everyone else suffers the train losing time when the doors have trouble closing at every stop. Yet att the football people still moan bitterly, as though the problem is the making of anyone else but *themselves*. (And yes in this instance the TOC often puts on extra trains, but they have a habit of running half empty whilst normal services are full to capacity).

It's notable how no other sport seems to be associated with quite so much trouble, either logistical or behaviour.

Oh dear, would you like a violin? :roll:
Like somebody else has pointed out above, would you like to reveal your hobbies?

 

[Minilad]

I'd rather just not have these people travel 200 miles just to see a ball being kicked around. Then no transport suffers, road or rail.

There seemed to be a lot of football-related trouble yesterday in London. Where I am we had several groups on trains causing trouble (smashing bottles and being a general nuisance). In the event staff refused to move the trains until the problem people were ejected by BTP. As usual the regular passengers suffered, firstly having to put up with the rowdiness, then the delay waiting for BTP.

It's always a pain when Arsenal play in the evening. A normally half-full train becomes crush loaded from Finsbury Park. The saving grace is that because they all pile on at Finsbury Park all the regular passengers are already seated from King's Cross, so it's mostly only the football people who have to stand. As well as causing the train to be cramped and noisy, it also means everyone else suffers the train losing time when the doors have trouble closing at every stop. Yet att the football people still moan bitterly, as though the problem is the making of anyone else but *themselves*. (And yes in this instance the TOC often puts on extra trains, but they have a habit of running half empty whilst normal services are full to capacity).

It's notable how no other sport seems to be associated with quite so much trouble, either logistical or behaviour.

Stay away from Cheltenham this week then. Or you might get a very rude awakening

 

[northwichcat]

Stay away from Cheltenham this week then. Or you might get a very rude awakening

But the races get middle class drunks wearing suits and dresses opposed to working class drunks wearing replica team shirts

 

[Minilad]

But the races get middle class drunks wearing suits and dresses opposed to working class drunks wearing replica team shirts

And that, of course, makes it OK. Same with rugby. Middle class entitled people are ok to cause trouble. It's just a better class of trouble

 

[Starmill]

There were 3 trains yesterday at 1812, 1837 and 1934 from Manchester United FC to Manchester Piccadilly. One is sometimes run as a 6 car 323.

As for the troublemaking issue, I think it's just life that groups of people become subject to judgement according to the most obnoxious and attention seeking members. It's wrong to make such judgments but it's no less tempting for it. I am annoyed when troublemakers delay my train or make me uncomfortable and it's a skill ehich requires thought and effort to reason that it's not because they're football supporters that they're hooligans, they're hooligans going and doing football things.

It's exactly the same as if you hear about a religious fundamentalist who's a terrorist, you have to rationalise to understand that they're not a terrorist because they're religious, they're just a terrorist who is doing things they claim are related to a religion. Having this kind of empathy rather than just letting yourself get angry is not easy. If people give in to judgement they should be forgiven and taught the better way.

 

[bramling]

What do you like doing so i can criticise your choices. Odd how people on this board often want to limit personal choice isn't it?



but there wasnt was there? There was some low level trouble, no different than many other locations on a Saturday the cause of which could have been any reason from chavishness to drunkenness and all points in between. Plus no matter how bad it was on Saturday in London ( and it wasnt bad) it is 1000% better than it was 20 or 30 years ago.

Yet another post by an "expert" on this subject :roll:




Gosh how awful. All those great unwashed getting on YOUR train. How dare they.:roll: Goodness, one would think it was public transport.



never been to a Rugby match then and tried to travel with Rugby fans. I am sorry but you have little idea what you are talking about.

I think you will find, in the case of Arsenal, it's *they* who moan like hell, as it's generally themselves who end up standing. Everyone else just ends up late home whilst it takes 10 minutes trying to get door interlock at Finsbury Park.

Where I work the only event venue is a cricket ground, which never gives us any trouble at all. The issue yesterday seemed to be coach loads of football supporters arriving. After half an hour of trouble we ended up in the situation where drivers were refusing to take trains until the troublemakers were off the railway, fortunately BTP were able to oblige.

 

[Rail Ranger]

If it was the 1980s there could well have been one or more loco-hauled trains after the match direct from Warwick Road to London Euston via Altrincham and Middlewich.

 

[DarloRich]

I think you will find, in the case of Arsenal, it's *they* who moan like hell, as it's generally themselves who end up standing. Everyone else just ends up late home whilst it takes 10 minutes trying to get door interlock at Finsbury Park.

Where I work the only event venue is a cricket ground, which never gives us any trouble at all. The issue yesterday seemed to be coach loads of football supporters arriving. After half an hour of trouble we ended up in the situation where drivers were refusing to take trains until the troublemakers were off the railway, fortunately BTP were able to oblige.

what are you wittering on about? you were the one complaining that the oikish football fans dared to get on your train because they filled it up.

I also assume that they don't hold many 20/20 games at your cricket ground. The drinking at those games outs football to shame. It is impressive!

 

[6Gman]

If indeed there was serious agro, which I somewhat doubt, it does show the naivety of Network Rail. Arriva Trains Wales are used to planning the flow of fans after events at the Millenium Stadium. Network Rail would have known about this game well in advance and that the FA Cup allows more away fan tickets than league games. They should have had plans in place to deal with this. If railways are to be taken seriously, then they should be able to deal with this rather than suggesting that they should use other means of transport, as some posters have stated. Would you rather have 100 coaches coming into Manchester , fouling up the local road network and then fouling up the M6 and M1 afterwards? I would suggest that there is stock available and I'm sure enough staff to get volunteers from, to deal with these occasional events. There just isn't a will!

Would they? When was the draw made? And - crucially - when was a 4pm Sunday kick-off fixed?

Of course, a couple of 12car Desiro Reliefs would have made a big difference, but in the railway of 2016 that would have been a complex process.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

But the races get middle class drunks wearing suits and dresses opposed to working class drunks wearing replica team shirts

Not been to Aintree then?

 

[Mag_seven]

I suppose we can now expect chaos at Euston after the replay when thousand of Man U fans try to get back to Manchester?

 

[Starmill]

Not been to Aintree then?

I would guess Mr Collins is most familiar with crowds going to Chester Races!

 

[bramling]

what are you wittering on about? you were the one complaining that the oikish football fans dared to get on your train because they filled it up.

I also assume that they don't hold many 20/20 games at your cricket ground. The drinking at those games outs football to shame. It is impressive!

It's hardly unreasonable to turn up for a train journey and hope the train won't become crush-loaded with a load of noisy and troublesome people, losing time because they are preventing the train get door interlock. Certainly the reaction o of most regular passengers when they find themselves caught up in this situation is not positive.

Whether it's the fault of the people or the railway depends on your viewpoint, but either way there wouldn't be an issue if the football match wasn't taking place. It's not like the rail industry makes money out of it, the extra fares revanue barely covers extra staffing.

 

[yorksrob]

So did everyone get home ok in the end ?

I could imagine that I might get a bit jittery if there were thousands of people waiting to get on the last few trains. Since there have been football matches since time immemorial, does this have more to do with the FA putting on a match at a silly time ?

 

[DarloRich]

It's hardly unreasonable to turn up for a train journey and hope the train won't become crush-loaded with a load of noisy and troublesome people, losing time because they are preventing the train get door interlock. Certainly the reaction o of most regular passengers when they find themselves caught up in this situation is not positive.

Whether it's the fault of the people or the railway depends on your viewpoint, but either way there wouldn't be an issue if the football match wasn't taking place. It's not like the rail industry makes money out of it, the extra fares revanue barely covers extra staffing.

what are you on about? you are simply spouting more and more rubbish!! I wonder if you and others have ever attended a football match or traveled to an away game. BTW Are there any other forms of undesirable you might like to prohibit from using public transport.

Trains, especially those in London get full at all times and with all types of people. I am sorry if this upsets you but it is public transport for goodness sake. If you don't like sharing it with other people whom you consider tiresome or noisy drive. Life must be terribly difficult for you at times!

 

[Rail Ranger]

The problem is that some football supporters do not obey the rules of normal civilised behaviour nor do they behave with sufficient respect for those around them.

 

[DarloRich]

The problem is that some football supporters do not obey the rules of normal civilised behaviour nor do they behave with sufficient respect for those around them.

what a silly statement - nor do many other people from all walks of life :roll:

 

[DelayRepay]

The problem is that some football supporters do not obey the rules of normal civilised behaviour nor do they behave with sufficient respect for those around them.

Neither do some rail enthusiasts - causing huge delays by trespassing to take a photo. But let's not tar everyone with the same brush, eh?

 

[ivanhoe]

It's hardly unreasonable to turn up for a train journey and hope the train won't become crush-loaded with a load of noisy and troublesome people, losing time because they are preventing the train get door interlock. Certainly the reaction o of most regular passengers when they find themselves caught up in this situation is not positive.

Whether it's the fault of the people or the railway depends on your viewpoint, but either way there wouldn't be an issue if the football match wasn't taking place. It's not like the rail industry makes money out of it, the extra fares revanue barely covers extra staffing.

If extra fare revenues of the magnitude we are talking about, cannot cover the costs of extra staff, then there is no hope. Indeed you give a good case for concreting over the railway lines. I'm sure you wouldn't advocate that!

 

[randyrippley]

Simple answer is to only allow football supporters onto "specials" - prevent them riding on timetabled trains. And make sure the specials are formed using Pacers.
London to Manchester and back in a Pacer is about what they deserve

 

[Busaholic]

Though if it was the 1980s, the game would have kicked off at 3pm on Saturday, as it should!

With Brian Moore in the commentary box.

 

[DelayRepay]

Simple answer is to only allow football supporters onto "specials" - prevent them riding on timetabled trains. And make sure the specials are formed using Pacers.
London to Manchester and back in a Pacer is about what they deserve

I agree but can we do the same with:

School children
Christmas Shoppers
Hen and Stag Parties
Families with huge suitcases going to Luton airport

Then I would be much happier on my journey

 

[bramling]

If extra fare revenues of the magnitude we are talking about, cannot cover the costs of extra staff, then there is no hope. Indeed you give a good case for concreting over the railway lines. I'm sure you wouldn't advocate that!

The difference is that most passenger flows aren't so heavily concentrated, as well as not being so irregular.

 

[ivanhoe]

The difference is that most passenger flows aren't so heavily concentrated, as well as not being so irregular.

But they know it's going to be busy two weeks in advance. You can plan for that. If you can't, then we don't deserve tax payer support to the extent that we have.

 

[EM2]

London to Manchester and back in a Pacer is about what they deserve

What they deserve? Thousands of people who are perfectly well-behaved every week deserve to be crammed into two-coach trains for five hours?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

And if the clubs choose awkward times, causing TOCs to incur costs, then the clubs should be required to contribute.

The clubs do not choose the kick-off times, the TV companies do. And they certainly don't contribute to any costs.

 

[edwin_m]

The worst behaviour I've witnessed recently (fortunately briefly) was a small gang of Sheffield supporters sitting over the edge of platform 0 at Stockport last week. Had they been slightly more drunk, or the platform staff unaware of the situation, the result would have been extremely nasty with the train almost due and a unit standing in platform 1 blocking the driver's view until close up. However I've also been on trains with fans before and particularly after rugby and racing events and it has to be said that a significant minority of all these groups can be offsensive and sometimes dangerous.

 

[randyrippley]

What they deserve? Thousands of people who are perfectly well-behaved every week deserve to be crammed into two-coach trains for five hours?

yes, they're football supporters - they deserve it. And hopefully the journey would be seven hours, not five. Each way

 

[Late Trains uk]

I'd rather just not have these people travel 200 miles just to see a ball being kicked around. Then no transport suffers, road or rail.

There seemed to be a lot of football-related trouble yesterday in London. Where I am we had several groups on trains causing trouble (smashing bottles and being a general nuisance). In the event staff refused to move the trains until the problem people were ejected by BTP. As usual the regular passengers suffered, firstly having to put up with the rowdiness, then the delay waiting for BTP.

It's always a pain when Arsenal play in the evening. A normally half-full train becomes crush loaded from Finsbury Park. The saving grace is that because they all pile on at Finsbury Park all the regular passengers are already seated from King's Cross, so it's mostly only the football people who have to stand. As well as causing the train to be cramped and noisy, it also means everyone else suffers the train losing time when the doors have trouble closing at every stop. Yet att the football people still moan bitterly, as though the problem is the making of anyone else but *themselves*. (And yes in this instance the TOC often puts on extra trains, but they have a habit of running half empty whilst normal services are full to capacity).

It's notable how no other sport seems to be associated with quite so much trouble, either logistical or behaviour.

What a load of nonsense!! Did you travel during the RWC or around Racing/Music Festival times.
If all Football Fans were too much bother then the Railways would be keen to ban them from travelling, rather than sponsor clubs and offer discounted travel to it's Season Ticket holders encouraging more fans to use them Virgin Trains Preston North End & Carlisle United for eg. And seeing the Train loads of Preston fans heading home from Wolves on trains that are usually empty the TOC's certainly see the value in conveying Football Fans.
I would gather most TOC's would like more of a cut of the extra revenue that the million + fans watching each weekend generates. I wonder how much Sheffield-Scunthorpe-Cleethorpe trains benefit from Football revenue during the Winter ?
Why don't you look at what happens when a Club moves out of town or folds for good and the impact that has on the area? Pubs close, Rail Station Bars see less footfall, Cafes close earlier.
Football is one of the few industries that has grown continually in the last 15 years and provides a hell of a lot to the UK.

 

[Carntyne]

But they know it's going to be busy two weeks in advance. You can plan for that. If you can't, then we don't deserve tax payer support to the extent that we have.

Sounds like Mark Carne and TOC MD's are out of a job. ivanhoe has it sorted folks.