Scotrail Turbostars moving to Southern

[Chrisgr31]

One of them's been moved back to the fuel road at Selhurst Depot. Couldn't quite see inside but it's still in Scotrail colours & without Dellner coupler by the look of it from my London Bridge train!

Got better eyesight than me if you can see the coupler as you pass on a train!

More importantly than the colour etc its still a 3 car unit, so it must have a friend somewhere with whom it will be paired to create a 4 and a 2 unit train

 

[physics34]

Got better eyesight than me if you can see the coupler as you pass on a train!

More importantly than the colour etc its still a 3 car unit, so it must have a friend somewhere with whom it will be paired to create a 4 and a 2 unit train

We think they are staying as 3 cars now but that's pretty much here say

 

[tsr]

170392 is what it was with SWT - Complete with Southern Green Interior (and Astroturf seats!)

Yes. The 5-digit coach numbers for that one still end with "92", which is a bit confusing, as Southern 5-digit coach numbers usually match the last 2 numbers of the unit itself... except in this case...

 

[JonathanH]

Yes. The 5-digit coach numbers for that one still end with "92", which is a bit confusing, as Southern 5-digit coach numbers usually match the last 2 numbers of the unit itself... except in this case...

...and 455s, 442s, 377/2s

 

[tsr]

...and 455s, 442s, 377/2s

I should have been plain that I meant the diesels, which I crucially missed out. Sorry!

 

[Chrisgr31]

We think they are staying as 3 cars now but that's pretty much here say

I have always puzzled as to why they were converting them to 4s and 2s in the first place. Having them as 3's seems to be to give added flexibility to the fleet and potentially reduce the impact when one goes tech.

 

[physics34]

I have always puzzled as to why they were converting them to 4s and 2s in the first place. Having them as 3's seems to be to give added flexibility to the fleet and potentially reduce the impact when one goes tech.

just to keep everything simple with the 171 2 car and 4 cars, but i think the wiring is way too complicated to do that now. I might be wrong though as i havent heard an update in a couple of months.

 

[jopsuk]

I have always puzzled as to why they were converting them to 4s and 2s in the first place. Having them as 3's seems to be to give added flexibility to the fleet and potentially reduce the impact when one goes tech.

Flexibility? It makes diagramming them much more complicated. Trying to make sure that services are of a specific length, you've now got a mix of three different lengths

 

[MrB]

This whole charade just seems to keep going on and on - it must have been almost a year and the units are still not in service. Southern keep changing their minds and decisions (now deciding to keep them as 3 car units). Surely some serious questions need to be asked, especially if more units are going to be transferred south in the future.

 

[LBSCR Times]

The platforms on the Uckfield line have not been completed anyway, so there is still plenty of time to get the units ready....

 

[Kite159]

Flexibility? It makes diagramming them much more complicated. Trying to make sure that services are of a specific length, you've now got a mix of three different lengths

The easiest way is to put all 4, 3-car units down working Ashford - Brighton services, keeping a 2-car unit as the peak-time Rye - Ashford extra.

Unless the likes of Rye, Appledore & Ham Street can't handle a 3-car unit (I know the three stations west of Rye (Three Oaks, Doleham International & Winchelsea) are local door only. When one is out of traffic replace with a regular 171/7. Then Southern (GTR) can shout about how they have increased seating on the Ashford - Brighton services by 50%

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Will these still be renumbered as 171s? Presumably in a new sequence like 171 9xx?

 

[47271]

This whole charade just seems to keep going on and on - it must have been almost a year and the units are still not in service. Southern keep changing their minds and decisions (now deciding to keep them as 3 car units). Surely some serious questions need to be asked, especially if more units are going to be transferred south in the future.

Go back on this thread and you'll find that on 4 April 2015 they started to move south. If they get any in traffic again within the year it'll be nothing short of amazing.

Mind you, even at this rate they seem to be more effective than Scotrail at dealing with internally decrepit 170s. The remaining stablemates of these four units are at least five years overdue for treatment, although at least they're only too obviously still in daily use.

 

[Kentish Paul]

The easiest way is to put all 4, 3-car units down working Ashford - Brighton services, keeping a 2-car unit as the peak-time Rye - Ashford extra.

Unless the likes of Rye, Appledore & Ham Street can't handle a 3-car unit (I know the three stations west of Rye (Three Oaks, Doleham International & Winchelsea) are local door only. When one is out of traffic replace with a regular 171/7. Then Southern (GTR) can shout about how they have increased seating on the Ashford - Brighton services by 50%

It's been a while since i've been on that route but i'm sure there are 4 car 171 stop signs at the stations you mention. I believe a 4 car unit is used on summer saturdays for the likes of the Easrbourne airshow.

 

[170401]

Go back on this thread and you'll find that on 4 April 2015 they started to move south. If they get any in traffic again within the year it'll be nothing short of amazing.

Mind you, even at this rate they seem to be more effective than Scotrail at dealing with internally decrepit 170s. The remaining stablemates of these four units are at least five years overdue for treatment, although at least they're only too obviously still in daily use.

401-414 are now being refurbished with 401 complete and back in traffic.

 

[387star]

401-414 are now being refurbished with 401 complete and back in traffic.

Why is this only happening now?

 

[158722]

Why is this only happening now?

Because they are due their major exam, C6 (?)

401-415 were delivered 1999-2000, had their first refresh in 2007/08, so 8 years or so after that, the cycle comes around again.

416-424 followed on from the first batch by around a year, so they would logically have followed 401-415 through works, but obviously they are being diverted off to TSGN now. The extra SPT units (470/471) followed these in 2001. It is possible that the work on 421-424 has been brought forward a little, but 416-420 will just have to hang in there a bit longer until released from Scotland.

425-434, 450-461 & 472-478 date from 2003-2005 and had their first major refresh between 2012-2014 (along with 393-396) so are not due another for 2-3 years.

Given recent speculation about ScotRail keeping more 170s than originally planned (34 instead of 21), I'd suggest that 393-396 and 450-461 will be the 16 going off lease in 2018 (if all goes to plan!), destined possibly for Northern. This will tie in with their next major refresh, so it makes sense.

Given 401-415 are getting charging points, etc, this would suggest that they are staying long-term with ScotRail, with possibly 470/471 to follow them for the same work, then 425-434 and 472-478 through 2018/19 - assuming they are to stay.

 

[387star]

Because they are due their major exam, C6 (?)

401-415 were delivered 1999-2000, had their first refresh in 2007/08, so 8 years or so after that, the cycle comes around again.

416-424 followed on from the first batch by around a year, so they would logically have followed 401-415 through works, but obviously they are being diverted off to TSGN now. The extra SPT units (470/471) followed these in 2001. It is possible that the work on 421-424 has been brought forward a little, but 416-420 will just have to hang in there a bit longer until released from Scotland.

425-434, 450-461 & 472-478 date from 2003-2005 and had their first major refresh between 2012-2014 (along with 393-396) so are not due another for 2-3 years.



Given recent speculation about ScotRail keeping more 170s than originally planned (34 instead of 21), I'd suggest that 393-396 and 450-461 will be the 16 going off lease in 2018 (if all goes to plan!), destined possibly for Northern. This will tie in with their next major refresh, so it makes sense.

Given 401-415 are getting charging points, etc, this would suggest that they are staying long-term with ScotRail, with possibly 470/471 to follow them for the same work, then 425-434 and 472-478 through 2018/19 - assuming they are to stay.

Interesting thanks for this so to confirm it is 170401-415 being refurbished now not 170401-414 as stated above

Interesting 170470/471 are older units than 425-434 and 450-461 as well

 

[170401]

Interesting thanks for this so to confirm it is 170401-415 being refurbished now not 170401-414 as stated above

Interesting 170470/471 are older units than 425-434 and 450-461 as well

Yes 401-415, appologies slip of the keystroke!

For those who are interested units being retained by Scotrail will be

393-396
401-415
425-434
450-452
470-471

 

[158722]

Yes 401-415, appologies slip of the keystroke!

For those who are interested units being retained by Scotrail will be

393-396
401-415
425-434
450-452
470-471

Interesting mix of units from various batches...! Just what we should have expected...

 

[scotraildriver]

All these units will be refurbished with power points etc. In addition 393 -396 will have their buffet counters removed as well as the toilet from the centre car. This will be done after 401 - 415 are complete.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

All these units will be refurbished with power points etc. In addition 393 -396 will have their buffet counters removed as well as the toilet from the centre car. This will be done after 401 - 415 are complete.

Off topic 156509 is now stripped to a bare shell as the first 156 for refurbishment.

 

[Brian Aylott]

Yes 401-415, appologies slip of the keystroke!

For those who are interested units being retained by Scotrail will be

393-396
401-415
425-434
450-452
470-471

Can you confirm that all these will be retained to 1/4/2022 or into the possible 3 year extension when further electrification is expected?
Brian

 

[trainmania100]

Can someone confirm that 5Z99 Stewarts Lane to St Leonards will be the scotrail dmu move for painting? A little birdie told me its going to the paint shop.

 

[physics34]

Can someone confirm that 5Z99 Stewarts Lane to St Leonards will be the scotrail dmu move for painting? A little birdie told me its going to the paint shop.

1 or maybe 2 units are currently at Wolverton for painting so not sure about this .

 

[fgwrich]

1 or maybe 2 units are currently at Wolverton for painting so not sure about this .

Indeed there's certainly 1 unit there as pictured on this move on Jan 23rd. Note despite being still in First ScotRail livery, 170423 has had it's coupling replaced with a Dellnor and riding on refurbished bogies.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/79134428@N03/24497091675/in/photolist-DjHZTz

 

[trainmania100]

OK great thanks I'll be seeing this 5Z99 on Friday will be nice to see the scotrail livery on the southern route!

 

[170401]

Can you confirm that all these will be retained to 1/4/2022 or into the possible 3 year extension when further electrification is expected?
Brian

Yes, they will. Can't say about the extension but the number of franchise length 170s being retained has increased and all those quoted will stay until franchise end.

 

[grid56126]

OK great thanks I'll be seeing this 5Z99 on Friday will be nice to see the scotrail livery on the southern route!

I suspect the 73 is moving, potentially with the wrong train reporting number. 5Z99 was used last time it went down for a bit of TLC, until it was noticed it had no coaches attached.

 

[Altnabreac]

Yes, they will. Can't say about the extension but the number of franchise length 170s being retained has increased and all those quoted will stay until franchise end.

Makes sense. Electrification in period 2019 -2022 is likely to be East Kilbride, Barrhead, Maryhill and maybe Kilmarnock. So it would be 156s likely to become surplus to requirements rather than 170s.

Even if Fife Circle work gets underway towards the end of the franchise that will still mainly be 158s and 156s displaced with wires needing to get to Perth and Dundee before the 170s can be sent off lease.

 

[Philip Phlopp]

Makes sense. Electrification in period 2019 -2022 is likely to be East Kilbride, Barrhead, Maryhill and maybe Kilmarnock. So it would be 156s likely to become surplus to requirements rather than 170s.

Even if Fife Circle work gets underway towards the end of the franchise that will still mainly be 158s and 156s displaced with wires needing to get to Perth and Dundee before the 170s can be sent off lease.

It's now Dunblane to Dundee electrification which looks set to be given priority during CP6, with Fife Circle moving to effectively the end of the line, behind even Dundee to Aberdeen.

That approach makes some sense if releasing Class 170 units and replacing them with electric Class 385 (or similar) units cuts down the total operational cost (leasing + maintenance) for fleet or otherwise allows an increase in capacity at lower cost than trying to juggle HST sets, Class 170s and Class 385 units on the Glasgow to Perth/Dundee corridor.