Do you ALWAYS claim for delay? If not, why not?

[Techniquest]

Spot on. I don't think there's anything wrong with claiming... rail travel is pretty expensive and if you don't get the service you're promised, for whatever reason, then why not claim. As far as I'm concerned if I am delayed through no fault of my own, there is an opportunity cost with the time that I have lost.

I don't think there's anything wrong with claiming either, although I won't claim if it's bad weather that's screwed it all up. After all, NR/any TOC can't do much about it if a blizzard suddenly creates a ton of snow on the tracks making it inpassable (or something like that). A fatality is something they can't do much about usually.

However, one thing I do usually claim for is when they cancel or severely delay a train for one reason yet announce (several times) a completely different reason. This was the case a few years back when I was at Paddington. We were told the 2045 to Swansea (I'm sure it was that one) was being delayed with the train's inward working due to a train failure. We eventually left very late, so I complained to FGW. About 10 days later, I received a letter telling me it was due to a landslide so they weren't having to compensate for the heavy delay. However, due to the conflicting information they refunded my Saver Return from Swansea to London. Which was good of them. But at the same time it was their fault for their staff broadcasting incorrect information around the station and misleading the passengers.

Most of the time I don't get delayed enough to claim (less than an hour) and it's always when it gets near the hour does the train move! It's as if they know they're going to be paying out compensation soon enough so they magically get the thing going!
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I also notice only a few people questioning why were are GIVING £800 million in aid to India over the next two years, which...Just think what £400 million extra per year could do for our rail network.

But I've done a BIG rant about this on another forum (click to read full sordid details).
The only thing keeping me cheerful is the knowledge that Gordon Brown is in his final few weeks now! (Those chickens certainly came home to roost with a vengeance!)

£800 MILLION?! What the F**K for?!

I didn't know Brown was on his way out, I'll be celebrating the day he is removed from power, although I'd like the chance to vote in who we want this time and not let Labour choose for us.

 

[Metroland]

I don't claim and agree with death. I can't stand the compensation culture either and the grab, grab, grab mentality. In the end we all end up paying anyway, through increased taxes or prices.

 

[Techniquest]

It all goes up anyway, irrespective of what we do.

I pay a fortune for my rail fares usually, my money's valuable to me. If I have a good journey with the TOCs in question (usually ATW, FGW and AXC for me) then I don't mind shelling out. But when it goes balls-up, then it's time to let the TOCs know you're not going to keep putting up with it.

This country puts up with enough without complaining as it is, it is now time to rise up and make our voices known. If we don't complain, the TOCs will start to believe it's OK to run a bit late all the time. Spherical objects is it. I know I'm a bit fussy and will record a delay even if it's just 1 minute, but those 1 minute delays always turn into more delay elsewhere. You could leave Paddington 1 minute late and be 10 minutes into Bristol (all for examples) on the worse days. Sometimes, of course, they make up the time. Sometimes, of course, it's not the TOC's fault (acts of God and trepassing - the current copy of TR UK makes a good point about how it's time NR stopped putting up with this - not to mention fatalities being three reasons I could forgive them).

A lot of the time it would be less of a reason to moan if they could tell us why it's late. This doesn't happen most of the time, it gets on your nerves when you don't know why you will be late.

 

[digitaltoast]

£800 MILLION?! What the F**K for?!

Apologies - it's £825 million! From http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7198546.stm

Mr Brown said that of the new aid package, £500m will be dedicated to health and education.

He said the money would be used to train 300,000 new teachers and build 300,000 new classrooms, meaning 4m more children would receive an education.

Er, hello? Over here!

I didn't know Brown was on his way out, I'll be celebrating the day he is removed from power, although I'd like the chance to vote in who we want this time and not let Labour choose for us.

He's not officially on his way out, but with senior ministers quitting and people asking for nomination papers, I don't see his position as being tenable much longer.

This country puts up with enough without complaining as it is, it is now time to rise up and make our voices known. If we don't complain, the TOCs will start to believe it's OK to run a bit late all the time.

Agreed, and so I don't seem like a "money grabber" I do strongly want to re-iterate the point I made at the beginning in that the source of my irk and rampant claimage lies squarely on STD (simplified ticketing day) and its resultant near-doubling of my fares.
I refer to Simplified Ticket Day as STD because it's a bit like an STD - someone thought it was a bit of a good idea which everyone would enjoy, but a few days after having been royally f***ed we're all feeling irritated.
(I'll have to remember that one - that was almost good!).

 

[Metroland]

This country puts up with enough without complaining as it is, it is now time to rise up and make our voices known. If we don't complain, the TOCs will start to believe it's OK to run a bit late all the time.

Well that's a leap of faith. Not many companies believe in giving bad services, they want their customers to come back. It's like this idea that private companies wanted to take short cuts with safety, it's not really in their interest. That was a press construct.

Sorry, I'm more a believer in cock-up than conspiracy. Things go wrong, companies and their employees can be slack, but do we really need compensation to keep them on their toes? I'm not convinced. It just adds cost which usually the ticket buyer/tax payer has to pay.

I know one person, whom shall remain nameless, that wrote letter after letter to a TOC after a cable theft. I just get the impression some people are out for what they can get.

And do we really have to put up with a lot in this country, generally? Not sure about that either, a lot seems to be Daily Mail readers and their culture of entitlement. A continuous middle class whine. Sure, there are things wrong, but risk aversion has a habit of ending up with the worst possible worlds. Just another point of view. We ain't known as the whinging poms for nowt.

 

[digitaltoast]

Well that's a leap of faith. Not many companies believe in giving bad services, they want their customers to come back.

Well, next time I want to take a train from Oxford to Birmingham I'll be sure to remember the choice I have. Oh, wait....

And do we really have to put up with a lot in this country, generally? Sure, there are things wrong, but risk aversion has a habit of ending up with the worst possible worlds. Just another point of view. We ain't known as the whinging poms for nowt.

I take your point - we could be in Zimbabwe or North Korea. But why set the bar low?
We have the ability to be the best - instead we **** it away on abortive PPP schemes (eg: metronet, railtrack) for which the only winners are shareholders and directors. And nonsense like this:

Administrators Ernst & Young said that 435 Railtrack staff would on Friday receive the first half of loyalty awards given in a £6.7m ($10.4m) bonus package.

That's £15,402 in bonuses for every bad manager of a failed company! So before anyone gets rattled about my £150, think about that.

In case anyone was wondering why I get so often compensated, it's that the next train in my journey only runs every 2 hours and always loses over a minute, so when the XC is late into BHAM, I'm in free journey territory by default. HOWEVER....since STD day, in order not to pay £86 million for my £21 ticket, I have to split the ticket in two, so I now only get half of that, if that makes sense...

 

[Metroland]

I don't, for the record, believe in this bonus culture in the corporate world either. Equally, I also don't like people that take up vocational careers (Doctors, Dentists especially) who want to get paid/get paid 6 figure sums. If you want to make money, go into business?

Oxford-Birmingham? Well if it really does ruin your life, drive or take the coach. That's what I do, companies that are really bad or unethical I boycott them. Things I want to see more of the opposite. Isn't democracy great? The only people that get rich out of the compensation culture is the lawyers.

There are too many people that shop in Tescos and complain about small shops closing, drink at home and moan about lack of pubs, or do everything on the internet and then go write to the local paper about post offices. Or those that blame Bush and Blair for going to Iraq for oil, and drive a 4x4s. There are those that want a monetary incentive for everything in life, including going green, putting the rubbish out or being polite or bringing up children. They see absolutely no connection at all between what they do and the wider world and then moan when it's not damn perfect. There are too many people that want to be rich and at the same time want everything free or make some sort of spurious claim. Well it doesn't work like that, sadly.

 

[Techniquest]

I'm going to have to ask, what journey do you make?

As for it being £825 million, well that winds me up even more. Why is this country willing to p**s away so much money to other countries when this country needs that money? That £825,000,000 (wow that looks so much more in numbers) could be used for sorting out our education system, getting public transport into a state that people will actually use it rather than their cars, fix up some of the roads that are in a dire state (the A438 in many places on the English side of it needs doing properly and now), help people start up their own business (it seems like years since adverts were on TV to get people to start up their own businesses from home et al. Oh wait, it is) as well as a whole ton of other useful things, a list which would be too long to list right now.

As for those senior parliament members, good on them! It's about time.

I liked that STD joke of yours, quite funny that.

As for Metroland's comments about the TOCs wanting their passengers to come back, that's not the case with AXC it appears. Not only are they pricing people off their trains with these new restrictions but they run such a shoddy service that some people are put off using them. It's one time I'm glad I don't use AXC every day and have London Midland instead. Not that I like them either now, but it's a lesser-than-two-evils case. Come to think of it, there's not many TOCs I'd choose to travel with. The ones I would travel with would be FSR, TPX, Virgin West Coast and GC. I've had bad experiences with the rest of them that would put me off them if I didn't need to use them.

Also on that point about TOCs wanting their passengers to come back, LM don't do much of a job showing that. They turn trains back before reaching their destination far too often, usually without replacement transport and in some cases without any warning (I was talking to some people recently who were on a Birmingham New Street to Great Malvern train that reached Worcester Foregate Street a bit late. Without any warning beforehand, an announcement was made ordering everyone off, that the train would be returning to Birmingham and not continuing to Great Malvern, with them having to wait for quite some time (near enough an hour I believe it was) for an onward train. Now pardon me, but that's not good enough in anyone's eyes). Their trains are often late, flilthy and too small for the services they run. Believe me, I do not exaggerate when I say LM turn back trains for Hereford or Great Malvern far too often. Why they haven't been subject to a threat of franchise removal a la FGW last year I don't know, but I dislike using them to the extent I try to time my journies to coincide with the FGW HSTs as much as possible.

 

[Metroland]

TBH I'm not the least bit bothered about £825 million to India - least they need it. I'm more concerned right now, about our government writing blank cheques worth billions to bankers. what was it, £5 billion yesterday and £25 billion today?

 

[Techniquest]

There are too many people that shop in Tescos and complain about small shops closing, drink at home and moan about lack of pubs, or do everything on the internet and then go write to the local paper about post offices. Or those that blame Bush and Blair for going to Iraq for oil, and drive a 4x4s. There are those that want a monetary incentive for everything in life, including going green, putting the rubbish out or being polite or bringing up children. They see absolutely no connection at all between what they do and the wider world and then moan when it's not damn perfect. There are too many people that want to be rich and at the same time want everything free or make some sort of spurious claim. Well it doesn't work like that, sadly.

There is too much of the above, I agree. Myself, well I think that these small shops are far too dear for the likes of the average person when there's the choice of places like Tesco around; I hardly ever drink and if I do I tend to buy stuff from the shops as it's too expensive in the pubs anyway, plus I couldn't care less if most of the pubs shut as quite frankly they're a waste of space or horrible to be in most of the time; the Post Offices are too inefficient and waste good money anyway. If they were useful for anything other than allowing people to get their pensions out, then it would be different. I'd rather see someone else run the mail system as the incumbunt is useless at it; I don't drive so the oil prices thing doesn't worry me as much as it does to other people but if I did drive I'd only have a Corsa or similar anyway; those who want to be rich but demand everything for free need a good smack across the back of their knees. It might be the only way to control the irritating prats.

Those who demand cash incentives for recycling, being nice or whatever need to be dealt with, how I'm not sure but I know far too many people who just don't bother recycling. It's hardly difficult.
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TBH I'm not the least bit bothered about £825 million to India - least they need it. I'm more concerned right now, about our government writing blank cheques worth billions to bankers. what was it, £5 billion yesterday and £25 billion today?

Fair point, they do need it over there. Until we have our country sorted out, though, we shouldn't be paying out for seemingly every country.

I'd personally prefer to shoot the idiotic politicians who keep writing these blank cheques to broken banks. This Lehmans one is American, America can sort that out. Not us.

 

[digitaltoast]

I'm going to have to ask, what journey do you make?

Usually Oxford, Reading or Basingstoke to Newtown (Powys).

 

[Techniquest]

Ah, that's where the two-hourly bit comes in. Couldn't think of anywhere which was only 2-hourly off Brum.

Is it not easier to go via Newport and up the Marches?

 

[Hyperen]

Ah, that's where the two-hourly bit comes in. Couldn't think of anywhere which was only 2-hourly off Brum.

Is it not easier to go via Newport and up the Marches?

Newtown is on the Cambrian line not the Marches so you'd still have to catch the same two-hourly train at Shrewsbury instead of New St.

 

[Techniquest]

Yes, but the service is usually fairly reliable from Reading to Newport and on to Hereford. I don't know whether the fares are much different that way, but it could be worth looking into for an AXC avoidance move.

 

[AlexS]

Comparatively with London Midland, the Birmingham - Shrewsbury line is a massive improvement - all trains are 170s now with no random 150s or 153s turning up, all peak hour trains are either 3 or 4 carriages long also. I didn't think the Central 170s were too bad inside either and the London Midland refresh has a done a decent job of renewing the threadbare bits.

 

[43106]

I've had a slightly odd history with refunds. In late August 2001, I was travelling from Watford Junction to Edinburgh via VWC. There was some sort of derailment at Wembley or Willesden which meant that nothing was getting in or out of Euston. After a 90-minute delay, our train eventually turned up. While the Guard was inspecting tickets and apologising for the delay, he was doling out refund forms and telling us what the headcode of the train was. When I got back home, I filled in the form and sent it off, thinking that I was wasting my time. I was pleasantly surprised to see a £42 refund against a future ticket drop through my letter box about 3 weeks later! I did the same thing 5 weeks later, but this time went back to Edinburgh from Kings Cross with GNER. They accepted the refund with no query whatsoever.
As I travelled between Kings Cross & Edinburgh every 4-5 weeks, I applied for a refund whenever ANY train was seriously late. Twice I got clobbered when OHLE was ripped down - once near Newark and the second time when the train I was travelling on actually ripped down about 2 miles-worth of OHLE just north of York! In all, I applied for refunds some 7 or 8 times, totalling about £230. EVERY refund was, for some reason, a multiple of £21. Is this normal, or a helluva coincidence?

 

[Mojo]

My Mum used to claim a few refunds when she travelled from Redland and the trains there a few years ago used to be frequently cancelled. It was interesting to note that they rounded up the claim to £1.00!

 

[Metroland]

Be interesting to know how much they pay out in claims and where that money comes from. For example if its a cable theft, or kids dangle tape over the OHL, so the train's pantograph brings it down (quite common) the claims could run into many thousands with TOCs/NR unable to claim it back from anyone - apart from tax payers (IE more subsidy) or higher fares.

Of course if Bloggs trucking fails to maintain it's truck and it tips over on the M1 just outside Luton, which closes the road for 6 hours, who pays then? Who gets anything? Because Bloggs trucking get away with these costs, the company can undercut the railway on a roadstone contract and clutter up more roads, delaying more car passengers.

When preparing schemes for new railways the DfT deducts lost road tax and look at the subsidy required which is caused, in part, by claims and risk aversion (just in case there is any accidents) and conclude that there is no business case.

Meanwhile perhaps those that have claimed could maybe have a stab at proving that claims ended up in a better, improved and cheaper railway? I'm not saying you shouldn't claim, I'm more interested in the wider impact and if it's actually fair overall.

 

[digitaltoast]

Meanwhile perhaps those that have claimed could maybe have a stab at proving that claims ended up in a better, improved and cheaper railway? I'm not saying you shouldn't claim, I'm more interested in the wider impact and if it's actually fair overall.

Errrr....strange question really, when that's not the point!

OK, if you bought a pint of milk and you got home and it was rotten, and then found your neighbour had also bought the same batch of milk from the same store which was also rotten, would you not return it to the massive multi-billion £ megastore because, well, you know, I got a plastic bottle of something out of it and taking it back is only going to cost them money.

And yes, that IS a good analogy. When you buy milk, the service you are buying is not just a plastic bottle, but one full of something you can drink.

When you buy a train ticket, you are participating in a contract to provide travel not just from A to B, but in a timely and reliable manner. Look at it this way - if you break YOUR part of the contract and get on the wrong train for the time of ticket you bought, you WILL be hammered. It's not a one-way thing you know.

As someone else noted earlier in this thread, we wouldn't let anyone else get away with it. Train companies are not charities - they are massive multi-billion pound for-profit corporations with extremely highly paid and bonused directors and well divideneded (is that a word?!) shareholders.

I'm interested in why you are interested in defending them like they were charities? Do you have a financial interest as a director or shareholder?

 

[Metroland]

Errrr....strange question really, when that's not the point!

It is the point because the circumstances above are one reason not to claim if you look at it from a wider perspective. Some people have said they claim because it will 'sort the TOCs out', or 'It's a protest against high fares', I think it's rather short sighted. But they are entitled to their opinion and I'm entitled to mine.

OK, if you bought a pint of milk and you got home and it was rotten, and then found your neighbour had also bought the same batch of milk from the same store which was also rotten, would you not return it to the massive multi-billion £ megastore because, well, you know, I got a plastic bottle of something out of it and taking it back is only going to cost them money.

And yes, that IS a good analogy. When you buy milk, the service you are buying is not just a plastic bottle, but one full of something you can drink.

When you buy a train ticket, you are participating in a contract to provide travel not just from A to B, but in a timely and reliable manner. Look at it this way - if you break YOUR part of the contract and get on the wrong train for the time of ticket you bought, you WILL be hammered. It's not a one-way thing you know.

Fair enough, nevertheless I think there is something a bit unethical about claiming for things caused by 3rd parties - say cable theft. Moreover, I also consider it unfair that the rules of the contract you quote are applied to some forms of transport and not others.

As someone else noted earlier in this thread, we wouldn't let anyone else get away with it. Train companies are not charities - they are massive multi-billion pound for-profit corporations with extremely highly paid and bonused directors and well divideneded (is that a word?!) shareholders.

Train companies are supported to the tune of £5.4 billion by tax payers a figure that has increased year-on-year since privatisation. Profit margins by the TOCs are usually less than 5%. As I've demonstrated all that happens is when people jump up and down about safety and reliability it's not the TOCs that take the risk, it's the taxpayer or the ticket buyer. Like the banks and utilities, the TOCs are in a no lose game. Which is one reason we're paying ever higher fares and virtually zero expansion plans. Not good in the age of the most crowded country in Europe, congestion and environmental problems.

I'm not saying we shouldn't have a safe and reliable railway, but common sense and equal rules must be applied. An analogy is like the recent safety campaigns after train crashes which were of course well meaning, but in a narrow sense. All that happened is the railway now costs so much to run, the DfT are now telling the TOCs that ticket prices must price and subsidy must fall. Which in turn means higher ticket prices and drives people onto the far less safe roads. It's entirely counter-productive. All these things should be seen in the wider perspective.

I'm interested in why you are interested in defending them like they were charities? Do you have a financial interest as a director or shareholder?

Neither. This goes back to my point that some people always see a conspiracy or want some sort of financial incentive. I'm not defending the TOCs at all, I'm pointing out the other side of the story. I have no problem if people want to claim, that's their right, but don't expect a bigger or cheaper railway soon.

 

[AlexS]

With the extent of fare rises in recent years I'd have thought the compensation claims would be a mere dint.

I reckon I should also be able to claim to for having to do things like stand in the toilet when there's no disruption going on and it's just the case of a 4 car Voyager unit turning up on a peak hour service out of Birmingham.

As I said before, my fares are increasing and yet bar locally I'm not noticing any increase in service quality (I'm probably alone in not having an issue with London Midland).

Cross Country in particular annoy me so I take whatever opportunities I can get to get whatever I can out of them.

 

[1D53]

I don't think I've ever claimed a refund, I don't know why. Probably because most of the time I'm on free travel anyway.

 

[Metroland]

I reckon I should also be able to claim to for having to do things like stand in the toilet when there's no disruption going on and it's just the case of a 4 car Voyager unit turning up on a peak hour service out of Birmingham.

Fair enough, but I'd wager we'd end up like SNCF where you have to pre-book on all long distance services. Of course 4 car voyagers are ridiculous, but that's a whole other story. Should have been at least 8 cars.

 

[P156KWJ]

Fair enough, but I'd wager we'd end up like SNCF where you have to pre-book on all long distance services. Of course 4 car voyagers are ridiculous, but that's a whole other story. Should have been at least 8 cars.

Isn't the SNCF policy only applicable to certain TGV trains? Not all SNCF expresses surely? Cos I can remember you used to pay a rather dear suppliment to use the TGV, but it was still a 'turn up on the day' jobby.

 

[djw1981]

My Mum used to claim a few refunds when she travelled from Redland and the trains there a few years ago used to be frequently cancelled. It was interesting to note that they rounded up the claim to £1.00!

AIUI the vouchers are only issued in £1 intervals, and because to give you the rounded down pound would mean that you had not received the full 50% (or whatever) of the ticket cost, they round up. Also giving more compensation than required tends to make customers a little happier.

 

[Techniquest]

Comparatively with London Midland, the Birmingham - Shrewsbury line is a massive improvement - all trains are 170s now with no random 150s or 153s turning up, all peak hour trains are either 3 or 4 carriages long also. I didn't think the Central 170s were too bad inside either and the London Midland refresh has a done a decent job of renewing the threadbare bits.

Good and fair point there, Brum - Shrewsbury is a lot better these days.

The LM refresh has done a good job of tidying up the 170s, but there's so many improvements that still need to be made. That PIS system is terribly unreliable and the PA is so loud it's deafening. Changing just those two bits would make some difference to me.

Metroland: I do believe it's fair for us to claim because, quite honestly, I spend a considerable fortune on rail travel (I don't like to think about how much I spend on it). Said money could be better used perhaps, indeed I often go without eating much at all just to go out for a bash. So if I get delayed severely, I'm going to go and claim for that money back!