Network Rail's Linear Scrap Yard

[Philip Phlopp]

As I see it NR causes organized chaos and then hides behind it with excuses.

There is nothing hard about cleaning up after yourself. In fact it should be rule number 1.

Rule number 1-

CLEAN AFTER YOURSELF

Less of the organised (with an S, this ain't the USA, son). We take pride on being completely disorganised, according to a number of posters on here.

Give the permanent way boys and girls an extra hour to two hours per possession and stop mucking them around with ECS running through/past a possession, and things could change. As it is, there's enough time to do the maintenance work that needs done, but not always enough time to tidy up afterwards.

 

[carriageline]

As I see it NR causes organized chaos and then hides behind it with excuses.



There is nothing hard about cleaning up after yourself. In fact it should be rule number 1.



Rule number 1-



CLEAN AFTER YOURSELF

It's quite clear you have a problem with either reading or understanding. Either that, or you have q problem with network rail and will not listen to any rhyme or reason about the logistics.

On the theory of it, yes they should tidy up after themselves. But what if a block had overrun by X amounts of hours, and that has taken away clean up time? What do you propose, overrun the possession?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Less of the organised (with an S, this ain't the USA, son). We take pride on being completely disorganised, according to a number of posters on here.



Give the permanent way boys and girls an extra hour to two hours per possession and stop mucking them around with ECS running through/past a possession, and things could change. As it is, there's enough time to do the maintenance work that needs done, but not always enough time to tidy up afterwards.

We have 4 hours on one of my 'old' panel, and that is without ECS moved.

On my new panel, we have 3 hours, with no ECS moved affecting it.

I agree, they need more time. But you will have to hack the train service to do it.

 

[Taunton]

I can only conclude the apologists for leaving scrap, seemingly for ever, at worksites have never worked on airport runways. You may get a possession from 2300 to 0700 for resurfacing, and that is absolute. No leaving all your scrap and tools beside the runway the following morning, you have to have EVERYTHING perfectly cleared, and checked. Often such a job is over multiple consecutive nights, but absolutely everything has to be clear. And yes, if there are still delayed planes on their way in at 2300 the contractor will be expected to "be flexible" and work around it. That's reality.

As I've written before, rail engineers could do with some exposure to airport or motorway works to see how the rest of the world lives.

 

[Philip Phlopp]

As I've written before, rail engineers could do with some exposure to airport or motorway works to see how the rest of the world lives.

I don't think we're apologists, we're realists. We're telling you what we can and cannot do of a night.

Ignoring the wibble about runways, because railways don't have issues with jet blast, ingestion, vortices and other aerodynamic issues unique to aircraft (with a little overlap, admittedly) it's an unfair comparison.

And I'm damn sure if our guys got 8 hours a night, we would be miles ahead with multiple projects, including lineside tidyness. I'm pretty damn sure the people who poke around Heathrow's runways aren't interrupted by BA needing to move a 747 through their worksite at 1am and again at 4am.

And as for road engineers - I can reel off, from memory, a list of sites I've passed which have cones, cone marker lights, contraflow signs, speed limit signs and just yesterday I noticed a police slow sign, all to be found in the verge or central reservation, so you can stop that route of attack right now.

 

[furnessvale]

Most of that clearing up would be classed as spares recovery, not a lot gets binned on a Pres line, anything which is worn will be either stripped for spares or reconditioned with a welder and angle grinder.

Indeed! The joys of labour at an hourly rate of......£0.00p per hour.

 

[Bigfoot]

As I've written before, rail engineers could do with some exposure to airport or motorway works to see how the rest of the world lives.

Runway/road work and track work are two different kettles of fish. Access for equipment is one huge difference. Unless of course we build roads alongside every bit of track.

 

[richieb1971]

I am not a realist. I'm a perfectionist.

If I were in charge of NR I would make sure I had the required resources BEFORE I even attempted a job. What is the point of starting something you cannot realistically finish?

Ok, schedules can over run etcetc, but the lead times should take into consideration a couple of clinkers down the road.

This thread, and what I've seen with my own eyes is that leaving crap all over the place is not the exception, its the rule.

So in most cases NR don't have the required resources to do the job, or they are slow, incompetent or just lazy. Somewhere in the planning or the execution is a problem.

The only acceptable excuse in my humble opinion is that they had no intention to move the waste/excess in the first place. Then your moving the goal posts.

 

[Ploughman]

Most of that clearing up would be classed as spares recovery, not a lot gets binned on a Pres line, anything which is worn will be either stripped for spares or reconditioned with a welder and angle grinder.

Not in this case.
The rail was down to scrapping size and it all went for scrap.
The BH Conc sleepers being removed will mostly be stripped of their ironwork then sold on to local farmers. A very few will be saved for spares or siding work.

DB Autoballaster set tipping stone today.

 

[Philip Phlopp]

So in most cases NR don't have the required resources to do the job, or they are slow, incompetent or just lazy. Somewhere in the planning or the execution is a problem.

We don't have the resources to do the job to your satisfaction, which includes a scrupulously clean trackside. I've explained already, but to repeat for about the millionth time, we need more time to get in and clean up after engineering works.

Possessions are too short for the amount of work you are demanding we do, to be able to do the core engineering work is at times nothing short of miraculous, thanks to insanely hard work by the men and women of various engineering teams, be it permanent way, signalling, electrification.

Incompetence is a valid charge at times, I don't think anybody would refuse to admit that, it's something that is improving but there's always going to be something that will catch someone out when it really shouldn't. Charges of being slow and lazy are beneath contempt however.

 

[richieb1971]

We don't have the resources to do the job to your satisfaction, which includes a scrupulously clean trackside. I've explained already, but to repeat for about the millionth time, we need more time to get in and clean up after engineering works.

Possessions are too short for the amount of work you are demanding we do, to be able to do the core engineering work is at times nothing short of miraculous, thanks to insanely hard work by the men and women of various engineering teams, be it permanent way, signalling, electrification.

Incompetence is a valid charge at times, I don't think anybody would refuse to admit that, it's something that is improving but there's always going to be something that will catch someone out when it really shouldn't. Charges of being slow and lazy are beneath contempt however.

My tone maybe a bit much, but please do understand that I understand there will be individuals that take pride and do a 110% job. I see that day in day out where I work. All the excuses used in this thread are exactly what I hear at my work (unrelated job) all the time and it does my head in. If I can do the job, so can everyone else.

 

[DarloRich]

My tone maybe a bit much, but please do understand that I understand there will be individuals that take pride and do a 110% job. I see that day in day out where I work. All the excuses used in this thread are exactly what I hear at my work (unrelated job) all the time and it does my head in. If I can do the job, so can everyone else.

sadly, as you prove time and time again, you understand very little in this context. What job are you in btw?

 

[Marklund]

What job are you in btw?

Yes, I'd love to know too.


I do love being told how I should be doing my job, so thanks Richie. :roll:

 

[richieb1971]

I work in I.T doing 12 hour shifts.

I am a shift leader and quite alot of the time I don't have the minimum staffing levels to do the job comfortably. Which usually means trying to be 3 people at once. Today I performed all the duties without taking a break and it can be a bit much. When the other shifts work I often hear excuses like "I'm entitled to my break", "I'm not paid to do 3 peoples work" etc etc. As I see it, its a challenge, the company expects more of me because I am a shift leader and I stay behind if need be to get the job done. But on top of this, sometimes the other shifts leave crap all over the place and never clean their area which is shared with everyone.

Going back on topic, I don't see how NR can say a job is done if its not done.

I certainly wouldn't hire NR to say build HS2 if their track record of just replacing track and tidying up after themselves is so hard. Your past work is your CV and if you don't have a good CV then you shouldn't be hired to do more work. I understand that "Presentation" is not the end of the world. But saying that if the job description states that "Presentation" is part of the job, the end product should be "Presentable".

I watch NR's youtube channel and certainly in all of those videos the presentation is top notch, but then you would expect that from a video. If they put up a video and the end result of the video was debris left all over the place I would assume the comments section would be an ugly place for NR.

Network rail as a company seems to be heavily mismanaged. If NR were mountain climbers they would reach 80% of the way and then come back down and state "Well we did most of it". Yet they continue to disappoint time after time.

I'm not here to judge how people do what they are professionals at. But as a bystander who has interests in railways I don't always see the bottom line in £'s as the correct measure of performance. Its about attitude.

Ultimately if you told me any project NR is doing and gave me a target date and budget. I would hazard a guess that they would miss both, not just by a bit, but by a considerable margin. And its not because the workers are no good at their job, its because as tax payers we just let it go. There is no punishment, there is no consequences. If the government paid more for getting jobs done efficiently, quicker and more professionally.. Perhaps the results we seek from NR would come sooner rather than later.

 

[HSTEd]

THe presentation has little to no impact on the actual operation of the railway.

What lines should be closed to free budget to manage this beautification?

 

[Trog]

Also what would happen to the level of IT service if the number of users doubled, and you were only allowed near your computer for half of your shift.

 

[RichmondCommu]

I really don't understand what all the fuss is about. The only reason that I could see for removing redundant line side equipment would be if it was a danger to the traveling public. And if indeed that was the case surely Network Rail would be making more of an effort to clear it all up.

 

[DarloRich]

I work in I.T doing 12 hour shifts.

I am a shift leader and quite alot of the time I don't have the minimum staffing levels to do the job comfortably. Which usually means trying to be 3 people at once. Today I performed all the duties without taking a break and it can be a bit much. When the other shifts work I often hear excuses like "I'm entitled to my break", "I'm not paid to do 3 peoples work" etc etc. As I see it, its a challenge, the company expects more of me because I am a shift leader and I stay behind if need be to get the job done. But on top of this, sometimes the other shifts leave crap all over the place and never clean their area which is shared with everyone.

Are you seriously trying to compare working inside in the warm and the dry fiddling about with computers to fixing the operational railway. Are you really? :roll:

Are you really trying to compare tidying up a work bench inside with the operational railway environment? Is that your point of comparison? That is, at best, fatuous.

Going back on topic, I don't see how NR can say a job is done if its not done.

ooooooooooooooooh I don't know, perhaps if the trains are running safely over the area that has been fixed or something.

I certainly wouldn't hire NR to say build HS2 if their track record of just replacing track and tidying up after themselves is so hard. Your past work is your CV and if you don't have a good CV then you shouldn't be hired to do more work. I understand that "Presentation" is not the end of the world. But saying that if the job description states that "Presentation" is part of the job, the end product should be "Presentable".

I watch NR's youtube channel and certainly in all of those videos the presentation is top notch, but then you would expect that from a video. If they put up a video and the end result of the video was debris left all over the place I would assume the comments section would be an ugly place for NR.

what on earth are you talking about? Are you suggesting that presentation of a work site should be the basis for awarding contracts? Really? Nothing about safety, value for money, efficiency, skills, equipment or ability to deliver? Just presentation?

You tube? eh?

Network rail as a company seems to be heavily mismanaged. If NR were mountain climbers they would reach 80% of the way and then come back down and state "Well we did most of it". Yet they continue to disappoint time after time.

on what do you base that statement? Your years of understanding the railway industry? Have you any evidence to back up any of your statements?

I'm not here to judge how people do what they are professionals at. But as a bystander who has interests in railways I don't always see the bottom line in £'s as the correct measure of performance. Its about attitude.

Judging people is EXACTLY what you have done in every single post then pointed out how you could do it better, quicker, stronger and cheaper despite naff all experience or understanding of the topic.

Ultimately if you told me any project NR is doing and gave me a target date and budget. I would hazard a guess that they would miss both, not just by a bit, but by a considerable margin. And its not because the workers are no good at their job, its because as tax payers we just let it go. There is no punishment, there is no consequences. If the government paid more for getting jobs done efficiently, quicker and more professionally.. Perhaps the results we seek from NR would come sooner rather than later.

Have you missed all of the projects delivered on time and on budget? Of course you have, that doesn't suit your silly agenda does it?

As for the rest: what on earth are you talking about? You have no idea about projects, funding, regulation or any of the challenges faced in delivering a railway project. I wouldn't mind if you were keen to learn or understand them but you are not.

argh!

 

[Bald Rick]

I work in I.T doing 12 hour shifts.

I am a shift leader and quite alot of the time I don't have the minimum staffing levels to do the job comfortably. Which usually means trying to be 3 people at once. Today I performed all the duties without taking a break and it can be a bit much. When the other shifts work I often hear excuses like "I'm entitled to my break", "I'm not paid to do 3 peoples work" etc etc. As I see it, its a challenge, the company expects more of me because I am a shift leader and I stay behind if need be to get the job done. But on top of this, sometimes the other shifts leave crap all over the place...

Change the letters "I.T." for "S&T" or "PWay" and you have exactly the situation that applies on many railway maintenance and renewal jobs, every single night.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Ultimately if you told me any project NR is doing and gave me a target date and budget. I would hazard a guess that they would miss both, not just by a bit, but by a considerable margin.

Extraordinary statement.

I could list hundreds of projects that have been delivered on time and on budget. Many of them under my management. No guess work required.

 

[alxndr]

I really don't understand what all the fuss is about. The only reason that I could see for removing redundant line side equipment would be if it was a danger to the traveling public. And if indeed that was the case surely Network Rail would be making more of an effort to clear it all up.

In some cases it can have an impact. Rails in the 4 foot can have an impact on track circuit reliability, or damage other equipment situated there. Rails/sleepers left in the cess can block access to locs, which isn't initially a problem in terms of operation, but then if something goes pop and there's a whopping great bit of rail in front of the door...

Safety of staff is important too. Clutter in walking routes/the cess can pose tripping hazards, especially in darkness.

 

[richieb1971]

I cannot understand why you think a subpar ending to a project is anything but a failure.

So you think for every project NR do with budget constraints and deadlines, it should be acceptable for

a) it to go over budget with no questions asked
b) deadlines, what are they?
c) when A+B don't go to plan, get rewarded with even more tax payers money?


And thats a business in your opinion? If it were any other business it would fail miserably and die an awful death.

The debris left on track side is just one of the perfect examples of the culture we should be expecting from NR. And i'm saying that attitude is crap, especially if they don't have a "Do it better next time" approach.

And everyone here accepts the current status of NR like its totally IMPOSSIBLE to improve.

If network rail need more people, get more people.. Just don't do half jobs or break promises, deadlines and budgets. The culture NR is promoting should be stamped out. If even for the basic premise of a better railway at the end of it.

 

[carriageline]

You moan about short staffing, but yet your own company doesn't have a full compliment of staff!

 

[richieb1971]

My company is a mess.

Instead of hiring support staff they hired helpdesk staff. Which means that incidents gets logged quicker by more helpdesk staff and then get backlogged at the support level where there is inadequate staffing levels.

In my own dept we have a sickness record that is at its highest level since I started 8 years ago and some people have some serious issues. (Stroke, Car crash, someones knee gave in and then they sprained their wrist, Crohns disease etc). And thats in a pool of potentially 16 people and some of the workers haven't been in for months.

So yeah, I don't have a full compliment of staff. But if a manager gave me a project which I know I would fail at, I wouldn't take it on. Network rail would take it on, fail, then state they are over budget, get even more money, fail again.

I don't know who NR answer to, but hearing these excuses backed up people in this forum is just not the standard I live to.

I have just one question which I put to you all. Is NR fit for purpose?

 

[carriageline]

Ok then. Give us facts and figures on what projects they have failed at?

 

[DarloRich]

I cannot understand why you think a subpar ending to a project is anything but a failure.

So you think for every project NR do with budget constraints and deadlines, it should be acceptable for

a) it to go over budget with no questions asked
b) deadlines, what are they?
c) when A+B don't go to plan, get rewarded with even more tax payers money?


And thats a business in your opinion? If it were any other business it would fail miserably and die an awful death.

The debris left on track side is just one of the perfect examples of the culture we should be expecting from NR. And i'm saying that attitude is crap, especially if they don't have a "Do it better next time" approach.

And everyone here accepts the current status of NR like its totally IMPOSSIBLE to improve.

If network rail need more people, get more people.. Just don't do half jobs or break promises, deadlines and budgets. The culture NR is promoting should be stamped out. If even for the basic premise of a better railway at the end of it.

My company is a mess.

Instead of hiring support staff they hired helpdesk staff. Which means that incidents gets logged quicker by more helpdesk staff and then get backlogged at the support level where there is inadequate staffing levels.

In my own dept we have a sickness record that is at its highest level since I started 8 years ago and some people have some serious issues. (Stroke, Car crash, someones knee gave in and then they sprained their wrist, Crohns disease etc). And thats in a pool of potentially 16 people and some of the workers haven't been in for months.

So yeah, I don't have a full compliment of staff. But if a manager gave me a project which I know I would fail at, I wouldn't take it on. Network rail would take it on, fail, then state they are over budget, get even more money, fail again.

I don't know who NR answer to, but hearing these excuses backed up people in this forum is just not the standard I live to.

I have just one question which I put to you all. Is NR fit for purpose?

I can not respond to these posts within the forum rules. You are utterly clueless and seem to take a pride in that ignorance. :roll: It is a waste of time even trying to debate or educate you as you simply don't want to listen. You will simply spout the same old claptrap over and over again.

 

[Philip Phlopp]

Is NR fit for purpose?

Broadly, yes.

There but for the grace of God go we, but it's 9 years this month since a passenger last died in a train crash.

Germany can't match that, Spain can't match that, France can't match that, Belgium can't match that, USA can't match that, Switzerland can't match that, I think only Japan can boast a comparable record to the UK in recent years.

That safety has been achieved despite increasing numbers of train services and increasing passenger numbers. There are, of course, more things to do to increase safety, as every RAIB report picks up on, but there's a safety culture now engrained in Network Rail in a way I don't think there ever was under British Rail, where people were more prepared to take the odd (broadly acceptable) risk to keep the job going.

 

[90019]

I am not a realist.

Quite.

This thread, and what I've seen with my own eyes is that leaving crap all over the place is not the exception, its the rule.

Presumably you have a list of all possessions taking place and go an inspect them afterwards?
If you don't, how exactly do you know that it's not the exception?
How do you know that there's been work happening if things have been cleaned up, or are you just assuming that if it's how it was before there can't have been any work?

 

[Deepgreen]

If you don't, how exactly do you know that it's not the exception?

That's an easy one - it's virtually impossible to travel more than a hundred yards or so on a train anywhere in the London area (and many other areas besides) without seeing abandoned materials (not strategically-placed spares, which don't count) in the four, six and/or ten foot areas. From my own experience of 36 years' travelling, these materials range from a few months to decades old. Even very recently-completed works that I have seen have abandoned materials - e.g. short, 'off-cut' rail sections, bags of ballast, rail clips and so on.

My experience tells me that clearing up is the exception.

Incidentally, it doesn't matter to the travelling public what the underlying reasons are for failure to clear up, as passengers simply see a linear scrap yard when they look out of the window, and some residents adjacent to the line see an already-fouled environment into which to dump their rubbish. As well as that, track-side staff have to contend with an obstacle course in all weathers and lighting conditions.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I really don't understand what all the fuss is about. The only reason that I could see for removing redundant line side equipment would be if it was a danger to the traveling public. And if indeed that was the case surely Network Rail would be making more of an effort to clear it all up.

Do you apply the same philosophy to, for example, littering and fly-tipping in the wider environment - as long as it isn't a direct danger to the public (never mind any staff), it's perfectly fine?

 

[richieb1971]

Darlorich, the only thing we have in common is our christian names.

You discourage improvement, accept all clap trap that is officially given to you and will never understand that when someone outside of the industry can see something wrong with the inside of the industry, there must be a problem with the industry. I have not seen one post on this forum where you have agreed with a complaint.


I agree with the previous post about the safety record. And whilst that is the most important aspect of providing a service, cost, delivery and presentation is important too.

 

[DarloRich]

That's an easy one - it's virtually impossible to travel more than a hundred yards or so on a train anywhere in the London area (and many other areas besides) without seeing abandoned materials (not strategically-placed spares, which don't count) in the four, six and/or ten foot areas. From my own experience of 36 years' travelling, these materials range from a few months to decades old. Even very recently-completed works that I have seen have abandoned materials - e.g. short, 'off-cut' rail sections, bags of ballast, rail clips and so on.

My experience tells me that clearing up is the exception.

Incidentally, it doesn't matter to the travelling public what the underlying reasons are for failure to clear up, as passengers simply see a linear scrap yard when they look out of the window, and some residents adjacent to the line see an already-fouled environment into which to dump their rubbish. As well as that, track-side staff have to contend with an obstacle course in all weathers and lighting conditions.

It does matter when those problems mean it is impossible to service passenger desires. How angry would those same passengers be if their trains were cancelled because a possession overran to "pick up rubbish"?

How do you propose to persuade the TOCs to allow more access, more often meaning more cancelled trains? That is the key issue, particularly in areas like Waterloo. Solve that (and the moneygoround) and more can be done.

 

[Deepgreen]

It does matter when those problems mean it is impossible to service passenger desires. How angry would those same passengers be if their trains were cancelled because a possession overran to "pick up rubbish"?

How do you propose to persuade the TOCs to allow more access, more often meaning more cancelled trains? That is the key issue, particularly in areas like Waterloo. Solve that (and the moneygoround) and more can be done.

My point was that the average passenger can be expected to want a working railway that is also reasonably tidy, environmentally-responsible, etc. The logistics of achieving this do not really concern them; however, those same logistics represent a serious problem that the industry faces.