When smartcard tickets go wrong...

[feline1]

I already know what the official answer to this scenario is - but am intrigued to hear views on how reasonable people think it is.

Many TOC these days offer ITSO smartcards that you can put eTickets on, and swipe through the barriers.
I usually commute to work on one of Southern's "Key" smartcards with a monthly season ticket.

I've frequently had a problem where, on the first day of a new monthly season, the eTicket fails to "load onto" or "activate" on my card.
You're supposed to name a station to activate it at, and when you swipe through initially, it's mean to go live on your card.

Typically I'd do this at Brighton: I lay the card on the reader, it goes green, it beeps, the barrier opens: there's no indication it's failed to load...
...until I get to Victoria, and the Tube, and it's SEEK ASSISTANCE: it didn't load in Brighton after all.

What the NRCoC says here is that, to get home again, I have to buy a paper ticket and then claim a refund on it.
(You can only activate the eTicket at your designated station).

But my Key smartcard has a serial number on it, I have a printout of my confirmation of purchasing the season ticket, and I can log in to my Southern account on my phone and it shows I've bought the season there (for the given smartcard number).... ample proof that I've paid half a grand for a ticket and the only thing that's gone wrong is that Southern's IT infrastructure has failed again...

I don't understand why I should be forced to buy an additional paper ticket in these circumstances. I can prove my purchase, I have the smartcard in my hand and so nobody else can be using it in my stead.

I can't think of any other circumstance where the customer is legally obliged to pay extra if they've bought faulty goods or services!

I've never yet gotten so annoyed by this that I refused to buy the extra paper ticket, but one of these days I fear I will just loose it and tell them to get stuffed.
I'm wondering how many prosecutions TOC have tried to bring in these circumstances, and what a magistrate would say?

I fully get the concept that proof of purchase doesn't obviate the need to be able to show a valid *paper* ticket and/or railcard, because you could've given the physical ticket to someone else to use.
But that's not the case with an eTicket - if I have the card in my hand and can show the receipt, what loss can their be to the TOC?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Is that paper ticket not refundable?

If not, there is no way I would even consider using one of these smartcards.

 

[najaB]

I can't think of any other circumstance where the customer is legally obliged to pay extra if they've bought faulty goods or services!

A train ticket is not goods.
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Is that paper ticket not refundable?

I see no reason why it would not be refundable or, at the very least, that the value of the ticket could be credited towards the next season ticket renewal.

 

[feline1]

The paper ticket is refundable, yes, although probably taking about an hour of faffing to buy it in the first place, then fill in the forms and get the refund (which won't arrive for at least 28 days... and will usually be in rail vouchers, which can't be used to purchase your next eTicket, as you can only buy those online with a debit or credit card).
In short, it's a bit like them telling you you'll have to swim through a lake, but don't worry, they'll pay for your dry cleaning bill. (But you'll still have to take your suit to the cleaners and pick it up again yourself )
To put it thermodynamically, ΔS ≥ 0
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

A train ticket is not goods.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I see no reason why it would not be refundable or, at the very least, that the value of the ticket could be credited towards the next season ticket renewal.

A train ticket is services.

Southern no longer do eVoucher refunds, so the paper ticket refund cannot directly be used to pay for the next season ticket renwal.
To do that, I would have to refund the paper Rail Vouchers, demand cash, and then depost the cash (say, £27.90) in my bank account in person at a bank branch with a paying in slip :roll:

 

[najaB]

A train ticket is services.

No it is not. It is a ticket.

 

[feline1]

No it is not. It is a ticket.

OK, you try sitting on your ticket and getting to locomote down a railway line. I doubt you'll get very far.

 

[455driver]

I would like to remind posters of the ability to add other posters to their 'ignore' list, I have added a few lately and it has done my blood pressure the world of good!

Certain other posters are reminded of the 'search' facility available on this forum which might answer your questions without the need to start a new thread on subjects which have been answered dozens of times before!

 

[najaB]

OK, you try sitting on your ticket and getting to locomote down a railway line. I doubt you'll get very far.

A ticket is evidence of the contract that exists between the passenger and the TOC. In itself it is neither a good nor a service - as such it can't be 'faulty' in the sense that you suggested in your opening post.

 

[feline1]

A ticket is evidence of the contract that exists between the passenger and the TOC. In itself it is neither a good nor a service - as such it can't be 'faulty' in the sense that you suggested in your opening post.

"It" can be "faulty" in that it is supposed to "activate" and "load" at a designated station onto a numbered plastic smartcard, whereupon it can then be read by railstaff's smartcard readers, and by the readers on the barriers.
If it fails to do that then the eTicket system is faulty.

The combination of being in possession of the numbered plastic smartcard, a paper receipt of the eTicket purchase and/or being logged into your online account displaying the same eTicket purchase is also conclusive & irrefutable evidence of the contract that exists between the passenger and TOC. The passenger is only supposed to lay their smartcard on a reader at the designated station to activate it. If they have done so (and the reader indicates it has activated, and the barrier opens), there is nothing further that the passenger should have or could have done to adhere to their side of the the contract. The fault is entirely with the TOC.

 

[najaB]

"It" can be "faulty" in that it is supposed to "activate" and "load" at a designated station onto a numbered plastic smartcard, whereupon it can then be read by railstaff's smartcard readers, and by the readers on the barriers.

Yes. The token itself can be faulty, but that is not the same as having "bought faulty goods or services". The service that has actually been bought is transportation by train.

Edit: <Pedantry alert> Restaurant analogy ahead </end alert> That would be equivalent to saying that a restaurant failed to provide the goods/service because the fork broke while you were using it.

 

[feline1]

Yes. The token itself can be faulty, but that is not the same as having "bought faulty goods or services". The service that has actually been bought is transportation by train.

Edit: <Pedantry alert> Restaurant analogy ahead </end alert> That would be equivalent to saying that a restaurant failed to provide the goods/service because the fork broke while you were using it.

Well I take your point ,
but in that case my question to you is: if your fork broke in a restaurant, and you called the waiter over and asked him for another one,
would you consider it reasonable if he threw your dinner in the bin, made you order another main course, and insisted you paid the bill for both meals otherwise he would call the police? And told you could you go on the restaurant's website and claim a refund for the first meal.

You can answer "yes, I think that would be completely reasonable" if you like I would not be inclined to agree with you though.

 

[najaB]

Well I take your point...

This is why restaurant analogies are so dangerous. To continue to use this (weak) analogy, it's more like the waiter said "Sorry, but we have a problem with people stealing our cutlery so we have a policy that if you need a replacement fork you need to pay a £1 deposit. You can get it back when you're finished."

 

[feline1]

This is why restaurant analogies are so dangerous. To continue to use this (weak) analogy, it's more like the waiter said "Sorry, but we have a problem with people stealing our cutlery so we have a policy that if you need a replacement fork you need to pay a £1 deposit. You can get it back when you're finished."

Hmmm not really, because you're assuming he will just take £1 out of your pocket and give you the new fork.
Whereas instead what he's actually doing is making you get up from the table and go queue out the back for a new fork, meantime your dinner's gone cold. And someone else has sat in your place. And he won't give you the £1 back afterwards, instead he gives you £1 in luncheon vouchers.

 

[najaB]

Hmmm not really, because you're assuming he will just take £1 out of your pocket and give you the new fork.

In the situation with the smart card, they would do it then and there if you were at your home station. It's the fact that you aren't that results in the need to buy a ticket and faff about.

To those in the know, is there any way to verify that the new season ticket has loaded before travelling?

 

[feline1]

In the situation with the smart card, they would do it then and there if you were at your home station.

I'm afraid that's not correct. More than once I've been at Brighton station with staff in tow and we've merrily tried to get my season to activate on different barriers (including the "magic" Barrier No.73, which staff believe to have special power ). It was all to no avail.
On one occasion I was even told "oh yes, we've had a fault on the system all day, lol"

To those in the know, is there any way to verify that the new season ticket has loaded before travelling?

Well, you'd have to go through the barriers when they open for you (as you can't swipe in twice) and then find a member of staff with a smartcard reader, and get them to check what's showing on your card. This could take ages if you can't see any on the platform. The likelihood is that you'd miss your train. And even if the eTicket has failed to activate, there's nothing they can do to fix it for you, as I explain above.
So you would STILL have to buy a paper ticket, AND you'd miss your train and be late for work, and so would get a bollocking from your boss.
So, really, hoping for the best and not finding out it didn't validate until you try to go home in the evening is the lesser of two evils, as you'll only be later for your dinner, and your wife won't sack you.
(Note: some wives may vary)

 

[bb21]

Stick to paper tickets. There is your answer.

I would not touch ITSO smartcards with a bargepole, until many issues are resolved, and nor will I recommend it to anyone until then.

You can try complaining to Southern about that. I am not sure how effective your complaint will be, mind.

 

[feline1]

Stick to paper tickets. There is your answer.

I would not touch ITSO smartcards with a bargepole, until many issues are resolved, and nor will I recommend it to anyone until then.

You can try complaining to Southern about that. I am not sure how effective your complaint will be, mind.

I complained to them numerous times. You wait 28 days then get a bland email reply of cut-and-paste platitudes tangentially related to the actual points you made.

The advantage of having an ITSO smartcard with Pay as You Go on it is that you can just walk up to the station for single/return journeys and swipe on without having to faff online booking a ticket, or queue at the machines. At certain times of day and on certain routes, you're still getting the cheapest fare, with the least of your time taken up. (eg if I go Brighton to Preston Park on the train, if I had to queue at the station to buy a ticket, that would invariably take longer that the actual train journey

However I had to get them to deactivate my Pay as You Go because the system simply doesn't work: you're supposed to be able to have Pay As You Go AND season and single tickets on your card simultaneously, and the process of swiping in AND out will let the system work out which ticket to use. But whoever designed the system go their algorithms wrong. Shambles!

 

[AngusH]

At best this is bad for public confidence in smart cards.

Maybe the answer is to require all managerial railway staff to use exclusively smart card travel passes and tickets wherever the technology is available. There's nothing like having the chief executive find the product doesn't work correctly for getting bugs fixed.

As a serious point it might be worth reporting this to the ORR or your MP.

 

[talldave]

Stick to paper tickets. There is your answer.

I would not touch ITSO smartcards with a bargepole, until many issues are resolved, and nor will I recommend it to anyone until then.

You can try complaining to Southern about that. I am not sure how effective your complaint will be, mind.

I'll second that.

If Southern were not such a bunch of incompetent muppets, it might just be worth persevering. But, as you're finding out, their customer services department is manned by cut & paste idiots with a combined IQ of zero.

If you insist on continuing the Key torment, my advice is to ensure that every strongly worded email complaint is copied to the CEO of Southern. In my experience that does work - your email gets passed to a "vip" email alias which is dealt with by someone who can both read and speak English sentences.

And maybe just totally losing it with barrier staff one time might get the message across.... At the end of the day, you've paid. It's their crappy IT infrastructure that's at fault. Tell them to honour the service you've paid for without making you pay again. But still nothing will happen - Southern don't give a toss about you or any other passenger really - you know that already though!

 

[Olympian]

Well, you'd have to go through the barriers when they open for you (as you can't swipe in twice) and then find a member of staff with a smartcard reader, and get them to check what's showing on your card.

Yes that's the only way to check what's actually on your card, but why would the barriers open and show green light if there's no active/valid ticket on them? Surely if your new ticket has failed to load for whatever reason, so you've no active ticket, then they should remain closed and show red light and appropriate error code so you can then find staff to assist you and hopefully resolve it.

 

[feline1]

As a serious point it might be worth reporting this to the ORR or your MP.

My MP is Caroline Lucas (Green Party), who has raised this ****e in parliament numerous times.
I have corresponded with her on my commuting woes several times, as have thousands of other residents.
The dear lady has even carried placards at protests outside Brighton station, bless her.
Not that Govia TL give a ****, of course

 

[AngusH]

My MP is Caroline Lucas (Green Party), who has raised this ****e in parliament numerous times.
I have corresponded with her on my commuting woes several times, as have thousands of other residents.
The dear lady has even carried placards at protests outside Brighton station, bless her.
Not that Govia TL give a ****, of course

Oh, sorry to hear that. Nothing more that can be done I guess

 

[feline1]

If you insist on continuing the Key torment, my advice is to ensure that every strongly worded email complaint is copied to the CEO of Southern. In my experience that does work - your email gets passed to a "vip" email alias which is dealt with by someone who can both read and speak English sentences.

I haven't tried that yet, although I complain so much on twitter they *their* Twitter account follows *me* and they even reported me once to British Transport Police for making "disparaging tweets" (BTP did not take them on on their complaint )

And maybe just totally losing it with barrier staff one time might get the message across.... At the end of the day, you've paid. It's their crappy IT infrastructure that's at fault. Tell them to honour the service you've paid for without making you pay again.

The thing is, if I "totally lose it", I really will literally be totally losing it, not just putting on an act - one of these days they'll push me too far and I won't be able to help myself. But all that'll happen would be I'd probably get arrested :roll:
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but why would the barriers open and show green light if there's no active/valid ticket on them? Surely if your new ticket has failed to load for whatever reason, so you've no active ticket, then they should remain closed and show red light and appropriate error code so you can then find staff to assist you and hopefully resolve it.

I know!! You don't have to tell me these things!

I *think* what happened (and what happened to numerous other passengers who've had the same thing happen) is that the barriers possibly opened to let me in with a Pay As You Go, without activating my season... Victoria is outside the Pay As You Go Zone, so when you get there it's just COMPUTER SAYS NO.
The logic programmed into the gate should obviously be:
1. Is there a season to activate today for this card? Yes? - then load it
ELSE - proceed to Pay as You Go -

but some muppet got the logic wrong.

Either that or the barriers/readers at Brighton just have a mind of their own. Which is also quite plausible. I got SEEK ASSISTENCE twice tonight before I found a barrier which let me through. Random.

 

[dviner]

Going back to the original scenario - you tap in successfully at Brighton, but when you get to Victoria and try to tap out, you get SEEK ASSISTANCE.

What happens then? You seek assistance and what assistance is provided? Are you let out? Does the person at the gateline sell you a ticket?

What happens on the return journey - do the gates at Victoria let you tap in?

 

[hassaanhc]

The advantage of having an ITSO smartcard with Pay as You Go on it is that you can just walk up to the station for single/return journeys and swipe on without having to faff online booking a ticket, or queue at the machines. At certain times of day and on certain routes, you're still getting the cheapest fare, with the least of your time taken up. (eg if I go Brighton to Preston Park on the train, if I had to queue at the station to buy a ticket, that would invariably take longer that the actual train journey

However I had to get them to deactivate my Pay as You Go because the system simply doesn't work: you're supposed to be able to have Pay As You Go AND season and single tickets on your card simultaneously, and the process of swiping in AND out will let the system work out which ticket to use. But whoever designed the system go their algorithms wrong. Shambles!

Your Brighton to London season ticket would most definitely be valid for a journey to Preston Park.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Oh, sorry to hear that. Nothing more that can be done I guess

Other than next time use a paper ticket and stuff their non-functional IT system.

 

[feline1]

Going back to the original scenario - you tap in successfully at Brighton, but when you get to Victoria and try to tap out, you get SEEK ASSISTANCE.

What happens then? You seek assistance and what assistance is provided? Are you let out? Does the person at the gateline sell you a ticket?

What happens on the return journey - do the gates at Victoria let you tap in?

Well if you want the full hellish story...

At 8am in the morning at Victoria, the barriers are held open, because I guess otherwise there'd probably be such a crush on the platform that passengers for the next service wouldn't be able to board, nor would passengers be able to disembark...
So, I would swipe on the reader but not pay too much attention to what it said as I was swept through onto the concourse myself on the tide of commuters.

I then tried to enter Victoria underground station (my season is Brighton - London Zone 1-6, accepted accross TfL).
I don't know if you've ever tried to get into Victoria underground at 8:30 am but it's hell. They keep closing the entrance gates to stop us literally being crushed to death.
I get to the barriers and it's SEEK ASSISTENCE. I have to fight my way backwards out of a scrum of about 500 people to seek assistence.
Dimwit TfL staff say "That's a Southern card, it doesn't work on the Underground"
I explain "yes it does, it's got a Zone 1-6 season on it, I've been using it for months"
"No it doesn't mate. We only take Oyster. Duh" (etc etc etc):roll:
Anyways so I have to buy a Tube ticket to get to work (actually I used pay as you go contactless on my Visa debit card)

At work, I spend something like 37 minutes of my lunchbreak on the phone to Southern Customer Services, firstly on hold to get through to their 1st line people, who even then keep putting me on hold whilst they talk to "the Key team" (whom I'm not allowed to talk to myself).
I get assured that "it's sorted out now" and "my season is on the card" and "yes, you'll be able to travel home without this happening again, don't worry! And even if there is a problem, just show the barrier staff you Order Confirmation email" etc.

So I try to go home.
Customer Services were talking utter crap - my season isn't loaded. It doesn't work. I can't get through the barriers. Not on the tube, not at Victoria. And staff don't want to know about my Confirmation email. Don't want to know about what Customer Services told me. (They are sticking to the letter of the NRCoC) 37 minutes on the phone for this! :cry::-x

So I have a choice either to get arrested or to miss my train, queue up to buy a paper ticket despite it being clearly obvious I've spent £498.90 (or whatever it was) on a season, with promise of a refund on that.

When I get to Brighton, I go to the ticket desk and plead for help to sort this shambles out. They lead me to the barriers and we try and fail to activate the season. So they take pity on my and take out a special book and do me a replacement paper ticket for eTicket (even though they're not supposed to).

BEST STORY EVER!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Your Brighton to London season ticket would most definitely be valid for a journey to Preston Park.

Surely that's only *strictly* true if I am breaking my journey there, then re-embark and go all the way to London?

 

[Agent_c]

No it is not. It is a ticket.

If we're going to be pedantic it is property that remains property of the TOC but is in the possession of the service user as evidence of the contract for services with the TOC.

Now shall we keep splitting hairs, or can we move on with the clear message that was being communicated - laws about "goods" don't apply to train travel unless they also relate to services?

 

[feline1]

I remain deeply skeptical that I could be successfully prosecuted for travelling on a train when I'd paid £500 for an eTicket and could and did prove this to the train staff, and it's clear that no-one else could be using said ticket in my stead, and it was their IT system that didn't work properly.

 

[najaB]

I remain deeply skeptical that I could be successfully prosecuted for travelling on a train when I'd paid £500 for an eTicket and could and did prove this to the train staff, and it's clear that no-one else could be using said ticket in my stead, and it was their IT system that didn't work properly.

While I agree that it is unlikely in the extreme that a prosecution would be brought in these circumstances, a Byelaw 18 prosecution would be successful.