Bus company refuses to accept Scottish bank note

[Bletchleyite]

I wonder how they do it in Germany.

Most ticketing is off the bus, so if they have to change the odd EUR 20 they tend to have enough. Some buses even have fancy automatic change dispensing machines, though it's normally one of those cassettes with a button on each coin to release them.

 

[St Rollox]

Most First buses I've been on (the three Scottish divisions) are exact change only, so the suggestion that one could get change from a First bus driver is genuinely quite surprising to me!

Yep news to me too.
First bus giving out change, well i never.

 

[WelshBluebird]

Aren't there two separate things here?

1 - The driver did not have change. In which case why don't First in Portsmouth offer change vouchers as First do elsewhere? That is even before going into a rant about how crazy the payment situation is for many bus journeys in the country (those who live in London who can just tap a contactless card as you get on the bus are so lucky!)

2 - The driver did not accept a Scottish note. Scottish notes are legal currency in the UK and there is no reason why they should not be accepted where an English note would be.

 

[BestWestern]

Aren't there two separate things here?

1 - The driver did not have change. In which case why don't First in Portsmouth offer change vouchers as First do elsewhere? That is even before going into a rant about how crazy the payment situation is for many bus journeys in the country (those who live in London who can just tap a contactless card as you get on the bus are so lucky!)

2 - The driver did not accept a Scottish note. Scottish notes are legal currency in the UK and there is no reason why they should not be accepted where an English note would be.

Well it's one or the other, isn't it... The driver stated the first reason, while the intending passenger accused him of the second.

There is no evidence of any grounds for the passenger accusing him of the latter, and the driver clearly stated that he had no change. The complication is the passenger having then boarded the 'outrage bus' (terrible pun very much intended) by sending her baseless allegation to a newspaper who clearly have a political interest in making a big deal out of it (rather than perhaps pointing out that she was talking nonsense). I doubt the Portsmouth Evening News would have reacted in quite the same way. Sadly the paper having raised outrage seems then to have led the bus company into making a foolish and erroneous apology for something which we still have no reason to believe actually occurred, and in doing so have effectively turned a silly and baseless allegation into being 'officially' regarded as the truth.

 

[duncombec]

We had this discussion once when I worked for a national book retailers. I have no reason to doubt my former manager - because I would believe that she looked it up - but it is second hand information. Working in SE England, it was often said that counterfeiters used to favour Scottish notes the further south you go simply because shop assistants are not aware of what they are looking at and checking for. Indeed, during my time a number of other shops in the shopping centre (but not us as far as I know) had notes rejected by the banks for that very reason.

Apparently, legal tender only applies in certain situations. The example she gave us was that if someone wants to pay for a chocolate bar, then we can refuse any payment we choose - be that £50 notes for a £1 payment, Scottish notes, etc. If the person has given the chocolate bar to their brat to keep them busy whilst shopping, and hands us the wrapper, we are obliged to follow legal tender, because the "service" has been provided. However, we are always obliged to give change in legal tender. [Which is why I get really annoyed when self-service machines give you 16p in 2-pence pieces, or £1 in 20-pence pieces...]

*If* that is correct, then in this case, the driver is at will to refuse what he likes (within the company's Conditions of Carriage, etc.) unless the journey has been completed.

Of course, I assume his company has an unpaid fares policy which he should have followed.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Apparently, legal tender only applies in certain situations. The example she gave us was that if someone wants to pay for a chocolate bar, then we can refuse any payment we choose - be that £50 notes for a £1 payment, Scottish notes, etc. If the person has given the chocolate bar to their brat to keep them busy whilst shopping, and hands us the wrapper, we are obliged to follow legal tender, because the "service" has been provided. However, we are always obliged to give change in legal tender. [Which is why I get really annoyed when self-service machines give you 16p in 2-pence pieces, or £1 in 20-pence pieces...]

Sort of. The principle is that legal action to recover the debt would fail if payment had been offered to the Court in legal tender and refused. But to all intents and purposes (because sueing is the only proper means of recovering a civil debt beyond asking for it) this means legal tender must be accepted in payment for a debt. But before a chocolate bar has been sold no debt exists - if, as you say, it is being paid for after being consumed a debt does exist.

Of course equally a shop can have the policy that products are not consumed until paid for; if they do this would be a case of theft, not a debt. It's only a debt if this action is permitted, as, for instance, it almost always is in a restaurant. (You just try reaching over and grabbing a Big Mac, saying you'll pay on exit! )

Giving of change is entirely optional and as such there is legally no debt so no need for legal tender, however. (Were this not the case, vending machines would not legally be able to say "exact change only" - or indeed Lothian Buses).

*If* that is correct, then in this case, the driver is at will to refuse what he likes (within the company's Conditions of Carriage, etc.) unless the journey has been completed.

Provided he follows company policy in doing so, yes. If he wasn't following company policy, a complaint should be made to the company about the matter for it to be resolved.

Of course, I assume his company has an unpaid fares policy which he should have followed.

Indeed, if they do. That policy can quite legally be what the company wishes, it can even be driver discretion if they want, though this is not likely.

 

[WelshBluebird]

Well it's one or the other, isn't it... The driver stated the first reason, while the intending passenger accused him of the second.

There is no evidence of any grounds for the passenger accusing him of the latter, and the driver clearly stated that he had no change. The complication is the passenger having then boarded the 'outrage bus' (terrible pun very much intended) by sending her baseless allegation to a newspaper who clearly have a political interest in making a big deal out of it (rather than perhaps pointing out that she was talking nonsense). I doubt the Portsmouth Evening News would have reacted in quite the same way. Sadly the paper having raised outrage seems then to have led the bus company into making a foolish and erroneous apology for something which we still have no reason to believe actually occurred, and in doing so have effectively turned a silly and baseless allegation into being 'officially' regarded as the truth.

Sorry, that is what I meant (that it is one scenario or the other).

But what I was trying to say was that it shouldn't matter which scenario it was, in either case I don't see why the result needed to happen.

As I said if the driver did not have change then why don't they provide change vouchers like other bus companies (include First in other areas of the country) do? Of course vouchers are not ideal as you have to redeem them in some way, but the option should at least be there.

And if the driver did have change but rejected the Scottish note then that issue is also the fault of the driver / first. There is no reason at all why Scottish notes shouldn't be accepted. Sure, as explained in other posts a company can have a policy not to. But then the company can't be surprised when someone complains about it (especially as the policy really is pointless).

Working in SE England, it was often said that counterfeiters used to favour Scottish notes the further south you go simply because shop assistants are not aware of what they are looking at and checking for.

I never quite understand that argument when it is used as a defense for not accepting Scottish notes. Surely then the answer is to make shop assistants aware of what they are looking at and for (by means of training, posters next to the till etc - the same methods used for English notes).

Giving of change is entirely optional and as such there is legally no debt so no need for legal tender, however. (Were this not the case, vending machines would not legally be able to say "exact change only" - or indeed Lothian Buses).

Of course, but many shops who try such a policy would quickly find they would have quite a lot of complaints and (assuming there are other choices in the area) quite a lot less customers!

That is kind of the problem with buses where they won't accept notes / give change etc. There is little other choice someone has in terms of where to take their business. If there was, then I would imagine we would see passengers much prefer operators who do take notes / give change (or we'd see collusion where both companies would match policies).

 

[Bletchleyite]

Of course, but many shops who try such a policy would quickly find they would have quite a lot of complaints and (assuming there are other choices in the area) quite a lot less customers!

Indeed, which is why all shops I've ever come across choose to give change.

That is kind of the problem with buses where they won't accept notes / give change etc. There is little other choice someone has in terms of where to take their business. If there was, then I would imagine we would see passengers much prefer operators who do take notes / give change (or we'd see collusion where both companies would match policies).

Indeed so; most bus users have no realistic choice in whether to travel by bus or not. Or rather, the choice is travel by bus vs. not travelling at all.

Even Lothian Buses recognise this - their main routes do not give change but Airlink does.

 

[90019]

Even Lothian Buses recognise this - their main routes do not give change but Airlink does.

Though it's a flat fare system for most routes, and the fares are shown above the timetable at every stop (unless the timetable has been vandalised or stolen, obviously).

 

[Bletchleyite]

Though it's a flat fare system for most routes, and the fares are shown above the timetable at every stop (unless the timetable has been vandalised or stolen, obviously).

Indeed - this makes the policy reasonably workable. There is also, unlike other operators, the option of m-tickets for singles.

 

[me123]

Though it's a flat fare system for most routes, and the fares are shown above the timetable at every stop (unless the timetable has been vandalised or stolen, obviously).

Not to mention the fares are nice, simple numbers. £1.50 single, £4 all day. No return ticket unfortunately.

To compare First Aberdeen - you pay a fare dependent on the number of zones you travel through. The information on where zones are is not in the public domain, and it appears that drivers are unsure as well as my fare varied from £1.85 to £2.25 (IIRC - exact numbers may vary). You often simply don't have change for these seemingly random prices, which the conspiracy theorist in me sees as an intentional ploy...
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

We had this discussion once when I worked for a national book retailers. I have no reason to doubt my former manager - because I would believe that she looked it up - but it is second hand information. Working in SE England, it was often said that counterfeiters used to favour Scottish notes the further south you go simply because shop assistants are not aware of what they are looking at and checking for. Indeed, during my time a number of other shops in the shopping centre (but not us as far as I know) had notes rejected by the banks for that very reason.

A bank will not reject a legitimate Scottish or NI note. They will reject counterfeits - retailers should take the same steps checking these notes as they do English notes and any fakes will be obvious. Cash handlers should also accept them without additional charges - I'd be concerned that I wasn't getting the best deal from them if they were.

*If* that is correct, then in this case, the driver is at will to refuse what he likes (within the company's Conditions of Carriage, etc.) unless the journey has been completed.

Legally, he can refuse (or accept) any form of payment. A transaction is essentially an agreement between the vendor and the customer - the vendor provides goods or services (in this case, travel on a bus) in return for a mutually agreed payment (in this case, cash). Retailers need not accept Scottish notes. They need not accept English notes. They can sell their goods for West African Francs, or sheep, or even a jaunty dance number if they so choose (although I can't imagine any of these being a sensible business decision).

First Bus seemingly have a policy, however, whereby Scottish notes are accepted. Therefore, refusing such a payment would be perfectly legal but would also go against your employers' rules - in this case, whatever actually happened, First Bus have got some negative publicity as a result.

Again, I emphasise that the exact story here is very unclear, and talk about acceptance of commercial banknotes is not necessarily relevant to what happened.

 

[duncombec]

I wasn't implying that shops can choose whether to give change or not, just that when they do, it has to be given in legal tender - sorry! I always used to think apologising for not having any £5 notes when you gave them 5 £1 coins was politeness - then I realised it is probably a get-out clause.

As for making shop assistants aware, I'm not sure that is really appropriate given the handful of non-BoE notes we used to take - any that we used to take used to be taken out at the end of the day to be sent straight to the bank - you are not allowed to hand them out as change in England (not even Scottish bank branches are permitted to issue them in England, apparently). If you're going to use that an argument, you would need half a wall to cover BoE, BoS, RBS, Clydesdale, Northern Irish banks, etc.

As I understand it, Scottish/Irish notes are actually promissory notes anyway, and are thus no different to payment by debit card, which retailers can readily refuse as they choose.

Of course, as it has been mentioned innumerate times above the fact the note was Scottish is unlikely to be the issue, we can debate this until the cows come home!

 

[me123]

I wasn't implying that shops can choose whether to give change or not, just that when they do, it has to be given in legal tender - sorry! I always used to think apologising for not having any £5 notes when you gave them 5 £1 coins was politeness - then I realised it is probably a get-out clause.

Legal tender does not apply to giving change. The transaction is still underway, and can still be halted at this point. So if you don't have enough change, or have the change in an acceptable form to the customer, they still have the right to walk away from the transaction at this point.

As for making shop assistants aware, I'm not sure that is really appropriate given the handful of non-BoE notes we used to take - any that we used to take used to be taken out at the end of the day to be sent straight to the bank - you are not allowed to hand them out as change in England (not even Scottish bank branches are permitted to issue them in England, apparently). If you're going to use that an argument, you would need half a wall to cover BoE, BoS, RBS, Clydesdale, Northern Irish banks, etc.

You can hand out the notes as change - although the customer has the right to refuse them (as they do with any form of change - I could refuse to accept an English fiver in London as change, although it would be pretty stupid to do so). Legal tender rules do not apply to retail transactions.

As someone who regularly used to handle notes from all of the issuing banks at my work, I can assure you that the vast majority of notes have the same security features that English notes do (Ulster Bank notes aside - they were awful to deal with) - and indeed usually have more than their BoE counterparts. Anyone who can check a BoE note has the capacity to check a Scottish note - they all have watermarks, they all have security threads, they all have raised/tactile ink, they all have UV ink, most have holograms. Even without a prior knowledge of the notes, anyone who handles cash should be able to detect a counterfeit note quite easily by using the same process they (should!) use for English notes.

As for a poster - here you go.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The customer has no right to change *at all*.

 

[WatcherZero]

Not really surprising though, Scottish notes arent even legal tender in Scotland, only coins are.

 

[Deerfold]

Not really surprising though, Scottish notes arent even legal tender in Scotland, only coins are.

But for all normal transactions this is irrelevant.

 

[AnonymousUser1]

Legal tender? Stupid people are, well, stupid. That seems to include that woman and the newspaper editor at least.

The driver did nothing wrong from what the paper described.

legal tender is irrelevant to bus fares

 

[AnonymousUser1]

There is always an option, if the driver is unable to offer the correct change then the passenger foregoes the change.

As an ex bus driver you get sick and tired of people throwing large notes at you for small fares , it isn't difficult to make sure you have something close to the fare is it, but then, going by some of the previous posts its far too difficult for some people!

or issue a change/ excess payment voucher - the problem with change vouchers is finding somewhere to get them changed back unless you happen to frequent a large staffed bus station or live close to the Depot.

 

[455driver]

or issue a change/ excess payment voucher - the problem with change vouchers is finding somewhere to get them changed back unless you happen to frequent a large staffed bus station or live close to the Depot.

Which is all well and good if the bus company give their drivers change vouchers, I was never issued with one!

What then?

The onus is on the passenger not the driver but hey its always the nasty staffs fault on here isn't it! :roll:

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's the bus company's fault for having a policy which is then not correctly implemented.

Lothian's no change policy is by and large not an issue as it is well publicised and the fares are simple and widely known.

A change-given policy is by and large not an issue if adequate float is provided to drivers.

Any other scenario (where fares are paid by cash) simply doesn't work and results in staff getting flak for which the company is to blame.

 

[fowler9]

Many people on here suggesting that contactless is the way forward and cash is archaic. At the moment many contactless payments take days to show up on your online banking so you have to keep hold of a receipt or some other note to know exactly what you have spent. with cash when it is gone it is gone. Until banks can catch up with instant messaging etc. and everyone has instant access to online banking that actually works properly I think cash is pretty good. I mean think about it. At the minute you either start out with a load of notes and coins and get rid of them or you take a plastic card out and gradually collect a load of receipts or just remember everything you spent, and you will have to remember everything to make sure you don't go overdrawn. Until contactless updates everything instantly you are just saving the banks money (Or indeed making them money) by doing their job for them. Plus how much of a pain in the bum is it to lend your mate 20p at the bus stop online using your card.

 

[duncombec]

legal tender is irrelevant to bus fares

Sorry to be a bit dim, but how?

According to "Fares and Ticketing on buses - A pocket guide for staff", dated January 2000, it is.

Legal Tender

Coins are legal tender up to the following amounts

[...]

Coins of up to these limits should be accepted in payment of fares, and similarly you should not exceed these legal limits when giving change.

If you are offered payments in coins above these limits, you could legally refuse to accept them - in which case the unpaid fares procedure should be adopted.
[...]

Not saying the law hasn't changed in the 15 years since then (discounting the obvious fact that TfL no longer accept cash), but why would "London Transport Buses Ticket Technology Office" be telling porkies?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Sorry to be a bit dim, but how?

Because it is only relevant where there is a debt to be settled. As bus fares are paid in advance of travel, there is no debt, therefore acceptance can be whatever the bus company wants. Indeed, were that not the case, TfL's cashless buses would not be legal.

Not saying the law hasn't changed in the 15 years since then (discounting the obvious fact that TfL no longer accept cash), but why would "London Transport Buses Ticket Technology Office" be telling porkies?

That TfL adopts a coinage policy similar to legal tender (many businesses do) does not mean that it is legally required to do so.

 

[AnonymousUser1]

Which is all well and good if the bus company give their drivers change vouchers, I was never issued with one!

What then?

The onus is on the passenger not the driver but hey its always the nasty staffs fault on here isn't it! :roll:

change vouchers are produced by the ticket machines if the operator can be bothered to set it up ... ther;es nothing to issue to staff except a briefing note if it;s enabled on the ticket machine

 

[Via Bank]

Which is all well and good if the bus company give their drivers change vouchers, I was never issued with one!

What then?

The onus is on the passenger not the driver but hey its always the nasty staffs fault on here isn't it! :roll:

Has it occurred to you that people might need to travel at short notice, with no open shops in the vicinity and cash machines that only spit out £10 or £20 notes? Or might (particularly poorer or vulnerable passengers) be on a very tight budget and not in a position to make purchases solely to get change?

So yes, it can be hard to get change. Especially if you have no easy way of telling what the fare will be before you get on the bus.

If I present a £10 or £20 note and ask for a £5.60 day pass at 06:15 on a Saturday morning, and say "sorry, guv, I haven't got anything smaller," I would rather not be at looked by the driver as if I have just vomited in their face. This happened, regularly, when I lived in an area served by Stagecoach South (and woe betide me if I needed to exchange the inevitable change voucher for, you know, the actual money.)

 

[me123]

Not saying the law hasn't changed in the 15 years since then (discounting the obvious fact that TfL no longer accept cash), but why would "London Transport Buses Ticket Technology Office" be telling porkies?

Because, like many people, they have clearly failed to understand the concept of legal tender. I can't believe I'm stating this again, but the simplest definition of legal tender is:

"Coins or banknotes that must be accepted if offered in payment of a debt."

This does not apply to standard retail transactions. A transaction is a simple trade between the vendor and customer - the vendor offers goods or services and the customer pays for it, usually with money. There is no point at which a debt is created. Offering your customer change is a convention, but is not creation of a debt - if there is no change offered, the customer reserves the right to walk away from the transaction. They cannot demand change, but similarly they cannot be forced to continue with the transaction at this point. If the customer is not in agreement, then the transaction has not been completed. This is the same as a bus - the customer requests a ticket, is advised how much the ticket costs, and tenders their payment. If the payment is not acceptable to either party (for example the driver refuses to accept a £50 note, or the customer is unhappy that they will not receive change), either party can discontinue the transaction.

As there is no debt, the bus driver can legally accept or refuse any form of payment they see fit. The rules regarding legal tender DO NOT APPLY. Therefore bus drivers can accept payment entirely in 1p coins, and issue change entirely in 1p coins, regardless of the 20p limit. The 20p limit does not apply. Because there's no debt, and legal tender is completely irrelevant.

There have now been countless posts on this thread explaining the concept of legal tender, yet every time I look back on this thread someone brings up the concept of legal tender yet again. I'm at a loss as to how to explain this any clearer, because no matter how many people repeat this, the message still doesn't seem to be getting across.

 

[philthetube]

You cannot blame the driver for not accepting the £10 unless,

A) The driver is trained in what Scottish notes look like and how to check they are genuine. and

B) First would not penalise the driver should the note have proved to be a forgery or not valid.

I have never worked as a bus driver anywhere where drivers were not held liable for accepting forgeries, or where they have been provided with an adequate float.

On a slightly different topic, in the 70's working in Lancashire we had a passenger who turned at up 0530 every morning with a £5 note for a 9p fare, he got a free ride for a couple of weeks until the rota went round and different drivers noticed, we then set up a charity bottle into which we all placed all the half pence's we collected, when there were enough he was presented with £4.91 in half p's. He correctly pointed out that he did not have to accept so much change in copper, to which the driver pointed out that he did not have to accept the £5 note. At the time we got a £2 float.

 

[yorkie]

You cannot blame the driver for not accepting the £10 unless,....

...it wasn't an accepted method of payment.

A spokesperson confirms it was an accepted form of payment, so it it must be accepted. End of.

 

[Bletchleyite]

...it wasn't an accepted method of payment.

A spokesperson confirms it was an accepted form of payment, so it it must be accepted. End of.

Indeed, if Company policy is that it is accepted, accepted it must be.

Company policy could be that all fares are paid at driver's discretion, in which case the driver's discretion was applied, in this case favouring a negative decision. But it appears that that was not company policy in this case. Drivers must follow Company policy or, presumably, are subject to disciplinary action.

 

[221129]

...it wasn't an accepted method of payment.

A spokesperson confirms it was an accepted form of payment, so it it must be accepted. End of.

But the issue was he didn't have change...