Bus company refuses to accept Scottish bank note

[overthewater]

A Storm in a teacup? At least the drivers are getting retrained.


Read more: http://www.scotsman.com/news/scots-...pt-scottish-bank-note-1-4015309#ixzz3yk3RkfCp

A MUM has been left humiliated and embarrassed after a driver from a Scottish bus company refused to accept her Scottish bank note.

Lisa Bryce said she tried to get on a First bus from her home in Portsmouth with her three-month-old baby Charles and mum, Christine but the bus driver refused to accept the 31-year-old’s Scottish £10 note.

Lisa, who moved to the area from Glasgow last year, said the driver’s behaviour was unacceptable.

She said: ‘My mum tried to pay for our tickets but she only had a Scottish £10 note. The driver said he didn’t have any change.

‘I asked if it was because it was Scottish money, but he just looked away sheepishly. I could see he had change in the little box but he just kept saying he didn’t have any change.

‘He was being really aggressive about it.’

READ MORE: Contactless ticketing on every UK bus by 2020

Lisa said she only had £3 in loose change but needed £4 for the fare, so they were forced to get off the bus.

She said: ‘It was raining, but the only thing we could do was to get off and walk home.

‘I was humiliated and it made me feel really low. It was hugely embarrassing.

Considering First is a Scottish company it’s just not right that they don’t accept Scottish notes, which are legal tender. I need to know I can get on a bus and it won’t happen again.’

First Solent general manager Dervla McKay said it was an unfortunate incident which should not have happened.

Ms McKay said: ‘We are very sorry about the way in which Ms Bryce and her mother were treated.

‘We are a Scottish-based company and as such, we accept Scottish bank notes and all other legal tender.

‘It was unfortunate that in this instance, the driver did not take the bank note.

‘As a result, we will be re-briefing our staff that we do accept Scottish bank notes as a form of payment.’

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Slow news day in Hampshire? In other news, chicken crosses road, Pope's religious beliefs established, and the toilet habits of the Ursa family

 

[Bletchleyite]

The driver, it seems, said nothing about Scottish notes. More likely would be one of the following:-

1. If he had changed the note he would have cleared his change out, and had to disappoint many more people paying with a sum of money closer to their fare later on.

2. He was too lazy.

Probably (1).

OTOH, if the bus company advertises that they give change, they should ensure sufficient float to give change. Or OTOOH (!) it points out why the plans to accept contactless by all the large operators by I think 2018 need moving forward - cash is an outmoded method of payment, and were one able to pay by debit card the problem would be wiped out for the vast majority of passengers.

 

[mbonwick]

Also not a Scottish bus company....

 

[Bletchleyite]

Also not a Scottish bus company....

First is a Scottish bus company.

But Scotland has nothing to do with the actual issue at all other than in the mind of the passenger.

 

[me123]

She said: "My mum tried to pay for our tickets but she only had a Scottish £10 note. The driver said he didn’t have any change."

There's the answer to your question. No news here. Move along.

The only way you could prove that the Scottish £10 note would not have been accepted would be if they subsequently produced an English £10 and it was accepted. Or if the driver explicitly stated this. As neither of these happened, the claim that they "refuse to accept Scottish bank notes" cannot be stated.

Surely The Scotsman's got much more important things to be reporting than a minor dispute on a bus over 300 miles from its intended readership?

 

[overthewater]

This is not the first time the Scotsman has done something like this.

 

[mbonwick]

First is a Scottish bus company.

First Group is a Scottish company, however First Hampshire & Dorset Ltd is an English company.

 

[bb21]

Legal tender? Stupid people are, well, stupid. That seems to include that woman and the newspaper editor at least.

The driver did nothing wrong from what the paper described.

 

[Surreyman]

Does this mean every single Firstbus driver in the UK is now going to receive a memo stating exactly which coins/banknotes are accepted?
Northern Ireland, Isle of Man, Jersey, Guernsey etc etc.
Does Gibraltar count?

 

[exile]

Does this mean every single Firstbus driver in the UK is now going to receive a memo stating exactly which coins/banknotes are accepted?
Northern Ireland, Isle of Man, Jersey, Guernsey etc etc.
Does Gibraltar count?

I'm looking forward to using Euros on my next Arriva bus trip - they're owned by DB so it'll be OK I'm sure....

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

There is a problem with Scottish notes (and Northern Irish ones) in that in many depots the automatic paying in machines don't recognise them meaning the poor driver(!) has to flaff about at the end of his shift making a manual pay in (usually with extra paperwork)... and you try giving out the note as change to get rid of it and see what happens...

IIRC for many years LT only accepted English notes and there were notices to that effect along with a clause in the conditions of carriage (then again IIRC for many years LT even refused English notes... only coins were accepted)
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I'm looking forward to using Euros on my next Arriva bus trip - they're owned by DB so it'll be OK I'm sure....

The difference being that Scottish money is legal tender in the UK whereas Euros aren't!

 

[carlberry]

There is a problem with Scottish notes (and Northern Irish ones) in that in many depots the automatic paying in machines don't recognise them meaning the poor driver(!) has to flaff about at the end of his shift making a manual pay in (usually with extra paperwork)... and you try giving out the note as change to get rid of it and see what happens...

IIRC for many years LT only accepted English notes and there were notices to that effect along with a clause in the conditions of carriage (then again IIRC for many years LT even refused English notes... only coins were accepted)
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


The difference being that Scottish money is legal tender in the UK whereas Euros aren't!

Scottish notes dont have to be accepted in England/Wales. (The term 'Legal Tender' dosent actually mean it has to be accepted) The scots make it especially difficult as there are three banks that each issue their own notes (and 4 more in Northern Ireland). Most bus drivers in the south are more likely to be able to tell if a euro note is genuine than one issued by Clydesdale Bank or Ulster Bank.

 

[me123]

The difference being that Scottish money is legal tender in the UK whereas Euros aren't!

Scottish money is not legal tender anywhere, not even in Scotland. That means absolutely nothing though - it has no relevance in standard transactions.

It has even less relevance in a news story which is "bus driver has no change".
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Most bus drivers in the south are more likely to be able to tell if a euro note is genuine than one issued by Clydesdale Bank or Ulster Bank.

Yeah, it's so different checking a Clydesdale note compared to a BoE note. With a Clydesdale note, you have to feel for the raised print, look for the watermark, the security strip, check the hologram... completely different from Bank of England notes. :roll:

The majority of people who use this rubbish excuse probably don't know how to check an English note, they just use it as a convenient excuse.

 

[johnnychips]

I've got on a First bus with a tenner before, here in Donny; the driver says he's no change, and given me a credit ticket that I can either redeem on another bus or take it to their office for cash. Was this offered; or can't First buses in that area issue it; or did the lady need the change to spend on other things that day?

About a year ago, I was given about £250 to repay a debt. It was in Scottish notes, and after, even though I introduced my attempt to pay for anything with, "Sorry, but..." it was never refused anywhere.

 

[me123]

Most First buses I've been on (the three Scottish divisions) are exact change only, so the suggestion that one could get change from a First bus driver is genuinely quite surprising to me!

 

[carlberry]

Yeah, it's so different checking a Clydesdale note compared to a BoE note. With a Clydesdale note, you have to feel for the raised print, look for the watermark, the security strip, check the hologram... completely different from Bank of England notes. :roll:

The majority of people who use this rubbish excuse probably don't know how to check an English note, they just use it as a convenient excuse.

So your argument is that a bus driver (or shop assistant) in Portsmouth should be able to identify any valid note from any of the banks that issue Stirling type currency dispite the fact that the majority of them will never see any notes from any of the other banks and most of them will reject £50 BOE notes because they see so few of them. Plus, if they get it wrong and accept a note from the Royal Scottish Bank they'll have it taken out of their wages!

 

[me123]

So your argument is that a bus driver (or shop assistant) in Portsmouth should be able to identify any valid note from any of the banks that issue Stirling type currency dispite the fact that the majority of them will never see any notes from any of the other banks and most of them will reject £50 BOE notes because they see so few of them. Plus, if they get it wrong and accept a note from the Royal Scottish Bank they'll have it taken out of their wages!

Well basically yes.

The notes are the same size as their English counterparts (plastic fivers aside, although they are the same size as the English ones will be). They are made from the same paper. They have the same security features, which are exceptionally difficult to forge (watermarks, security thread, colour shifting ink and holograms are close to impossible forge in a convincing way). Telling a forgery should be obvious. Look at the note - the printing should be crisp and clear. The watermark should be visible and clear. The security thread should be a solid line when held up to the light. Feel it - it should have raised printing over the name of the issuing bank and the denomination. Move it - the hologram should change. These are all common features on the English notes as well as the Scottish ones. I used to handle large volumes of cash, and every forgery I came across was easily detected as it failed on every single one of these features. The paper felt like toilet roll, the security thread did not exist, the watermark looked like it was drawn on by a child and the hologram was a piece of tin foil.

As bizarre as this may sound, what's actually printed on the note is not all that important. If someone's going to pass off a forgery, they're going to use the real designs. (If you accept something like this you are genuinely a moron, and no amount of training will fix that). It's the security features that are going to convince you.

And if you're not sure, here's a guide.

 

[yorkie]

Forget legal tender, forget whether the Company is Scottish or not.

The fact is that the Company have confirmed such notes are an acceptable payment method, and Driver was wrong not to accept it.

If you're paid to do a job, you need to do it correctly, and you can't make up your own rules. If you are unsure of the rules, you check, rather than make it up.

 

[me123]

The fact is that the Company have confirmed such notes are an acceptable payment method, and Driver was wrong not to accept it.

If you're paid to do a job, you need to do it correctly, and you can't make up your own rules. If you are unsure of the rules, you check, rather than make it up.

In fairness, if the company doesn't inform its employees that they do accept the notes, it could lead the bus driver to wrongly assume that they don't. After all they are in Plymouth and won't come across the notes too frequently. Some people if they hadn't been told possibly wouldn't even know that Scottish notes exist. If you're on a bus, your options for checking the company policy are very limited. (In a supermarket, for example, there will be a colleague to help).

However, as I've said before, this is not relevant. All we know is that the driver refused a tenner and stated he did not have enough change. It has been implied that this is because it was a Scottish note, but there's no actual evidence to say that that is the case. Sure, she stated that there was change, but how she could tell that there was enough from her perspective? Bus companies generally don't display their cash to the general public.

The story does not add up. One minute the driver was "aggresive", the next he was "sheepish". People who refuse to accept Scottish money are usually pretty forthright about it, and don't need to make up excuses. I think the guy genuinely has not had enough change, and the fact it was a Scottish note was purely co-incidental.

 

[bb21]

More likely the spokeswoman didn't really know what she was talking about, going by the way she said it.

Just because she is a general manager does not mean she has a clue.

Of course none of us will know what really happened.

 

[mark-h]

Scottish money is legal tender in the UK whereas Euros aren't!

Notes issued by Scottish banks are not legal tender anywhere, including in Scotland (no notes, including Bank of England are legal tender in Scotland).

Legal tender is only relevant for the payment of debts- in other cases it is upto both parties to negotiate what payment method to use.

 

[Phil.]

Scottish, Northern Irish, Gibraltar, Isle of Man, States of Jersey.
No notes issued by the above are legal in England. That's why ticket machines won't accept them.

http://www.scotbanks.org.uk/legal_position.php

 

[me123]

*sigh*

The link you've posted states quite clearly that they are legal.

Scottish Banknotes are legal currency – i.e. they are approved by the UK Parliament.

As we have stated over and over again above, they are not legal tender anywhere (not even in their issuing country), however legal tender has a very narrow definition that does not apply to standard retail transactions.

 

[AM9]

*sigh*

The link you've posted states quite clearly that they are legal.



As we have stated over and over again above, they are not legal tender anywhere (not even in their issuing country), however legal tender has a very narrow definition that does not apply to standard retail transactions.

So if you have a meal in an English restaurant where payment is taken after eating, you are in debt which can be discharged by paying in currency that is legal tender. That would also apply to any transport mode where you have access before paying, e.g. via an unmanned station.

 

[me123]

From The BoE:

All that legal tender means is that if debtors pay in legal tender the exact amount they owe under the terms of a contract, they have good defence in law if they are subsequently sued for non-payment of the debt.

It's a very narrow definition that doesn't even really come into play unless the retailer was to take legal proceedings against the debtor. Even then, legal tender requires the debtor to tender the exact payment and change need not be offered.

For example, if I was in a London restaurant and tendered a £50 note for a £25 meal, the vendor would be within their rights to refuse to issue change - most people would consider this to be ridiculous but in the eyes of the law it would be perfectly acceptable - the restaurant would not owe me any debt. Alternatively, in Scotland, only coinage is legal tender which means that if I took my family to The Kitchin for a £130/head tasting menu with wine, the law regarding legal tender suggests that to ensure my payment was accepted I would need to pay the £520 in coins - meaning that I have to walk in with at least 260 separate coins, as no notes are legal tender and neither is my card. I would be very surprised if anyone has paid a bill in that restaurant using entirely coinage.

It quite simply does not mean anything in your daily life. I cannot fathom why any restaurateur would instigate court proceedings because someone paid them with a Scottish £20 note.

 

[BestWestern]

How dissapointingly typical to read that senior management have opted to issue a grovelling apology for this total non-event, despite the driver having not committed the alleged 'offence' in the first place :roll: :roll:

To further add to the bullsh*t, Firstgroup in Portsmouth do not use 'a little box' to store change. Their drivers are issued with the usual 'coin machine' - a series of vertical tubes for each demonination of coin, into which they drop through a plastic slot and are deployed through a sprung release at the bottom. This is mounted on the inside of the cab door, below a 'desk' panel, above which is mounted an assault screen and associated paraphernalia... so "I could see he had change in the little box" would appear to be as factual as the rest of this rubbish. A sad example of the sort of attention seeking individual who needs to be addressed with a simple "go away".

 

[Bletchleyite]

Or addressing the issue, which is that if someone wishes to take the published option of paying with a note, to ensure change is available from it at all times.

 

[BestWestern]

Or addressing the issue, which is that if someone wishes to take the published option of paying with a note, to ensure change is available from it at all times.

I'd suggest you re-read the article. The response from management clearly addresses the 'issue' of the driver refusing a banknote because it was Scottish. There is a pledge to reiterate to all drivers that such notes are acceptable. This clearly implies that the driver was guilty of the alleged infringement, despite him having offered a valid and completely unconnected reason for declining the payment offered. There is no evidence offered whatsoever that the driver had any problem with it being a Scottish note.

The matter of having change available is a totally different issue.

 

[deltic1989]

So if you have a meal in an English restaurant where payment is taken after eating, you are in debt which can be discharged by paying in currency that is legal tender. That would also apply to any transport mode where you have access before paying, e.g. via an unmanned station.

My understanding is that in that kind of environment, the debt can be settled by any method that is agreeable to both parties. Although cash or card is the generally accepted convention, there are some restaurants that will happily settle the debt by way of the customer working (washing the dishes for example). If the owner of the restaurant agrees I could pay for my meal with a happy dance.
As long as the debt is settled in a manner agreed by both parties.

(Note: If you do plan to pay for a meal using a happy dance, ensure you get the agreement in writing before leaving)


In my experience (yours may vary), give that Sailors can be frequently posted between Faslane and Plymouth, Scottish notes are not uncommon in Plymouth. However that is not really the point here.
The point rests on the driver not having enough to change the note. Which I can well believe, it's my understanding that bus driver's floats are fairly small, and if the first passenger pays with a £20 note they are all but screwed.
I don't recall if excess fare vouchers are available in Plymouth, but if they are this could have been a solution, if they aren't then what is the driver to do. The note offered was not acceptable in settlement of the debt, because the receiving party (the driver), couldn't make change.