Class 180's to.....Northern?

[bluenoxid]

180s should be on high speed routes. XC (if 180s were cleared (which they arent)) would be ideal, or alternatively Virmin for Holyhead runs meaning Cross Country could get some much needed capacity.

AXC trains should be 8 cars
The DfT should not control the railways as much
All passengers should get a seat
All passenger should get their ticket checked
I really should have a girlfriend :roll:

In what way are "you" EMT? When you say "we", do you mean you work for EMT and have inside knowledge this is the plan, or are you simply an enthusiast who lives somewhere within the EMT network who wants something different to take photos of?

Bad day???

 

[voyagerdude220]

Sorry if this has already been covered in this thread, but Adelante's have a single FC carriage, which Northern rail doesn't offer.

Will it be declassified once the 180's are introduced on Northern Rail routes, remain as FC, with FC tickets introduced, or removed from the Adelantes, to reduce the problem of short platforms in some areas?

 

[Fuzzy Logic]

Sorry if this has already been covered in this thread, but Adelante's have a single FC carriage, which Northern rail doesn't offer.

Will it be declassified once the 180's are introduced on Northern Rail routes, remain as FC, with FC tickets introduced, or removed from the Adelantes, to reduce the problem of short platforms in some areas?

Unfortunately you can't cut cars out of 180's to short-form them. All carriages contain unique electronics requiring the trains to be run as full units. I imagine that if they do go to Northern then FC would be declassified or locked OOU. Surely there can't be *that* much demand on routes of Victoria?

 

[voyagerdude220]

But if you locked the FC carriage OOU, wouldn't it therefore cause the very rear/front SC carriage, next to the FC carriage, to be un useable, as there would be no way of walking between the SC carriages next to the FC carriage?

 

[Pumbaa]

I would imagine twuld be easiest to de-classify it. I don't think there is a huge demand particularly for FC on Man - Blackpool. And I doubt the units will be refreshed prior to entering service with Northern.

 

[me123]

They'd have to declassify them, at least before any refurbushment was considered. If FC was wanted/needed/demanded by customers, don't see why an outer coach can't have even a small FC area. Always seemed silly IMO to have a FC carriage in the middle of the train, anyway :?

 

[Pumbaa]

They'd have to declassify them, at least before any refurbushment was considered. If FC was wanted/needed/demanded by customers, don't see why an outer coach can't have even a small FC area. Always seemed silly IMO to have a FC carriage in the middle of the train, anyway :?

Which is why all the new Electric Desiros have FC bang smack in the middle. Well designed there... :neutral: Clever Siemens

 

[voyagerdude220]

But i don't like having FC in the centre, as you generally get passengers walking through FC, to get to other SC carriages.

Having said that, i've noticed that this problem rarely occurs on class 350's, for some reason....

For some weird reason, Class 185's feel more private IMO, than class 350's, despite having the toilet/small SC priority seating section at the end of the 185's.

Anyway.. back onto topic!

Will the shop/cafe bar area be used, or simply out of service?

 

[Philip]

What's the hydro-dynamic brake situation like? I know it was isolated before because of overheating problems - has this been sorted now?

 

[thefab444]

Which is why all the new Electric Desiros have FC bang smack in the middle. Well designed there... :neutral: Clever Siemens

The 360/1s have FC in the small area behind each cab (so a little bit at either end of the unit) and 444s have FC with a small section of SC in one of the driving cars. In fact only the 350s and 450/0s have the arrangement you describe, as 450/5s no longer have FC.

I think the internal designs were probably done by the TOC/ROSCOs anyway?

 

[Mintona]

Yes- it can be quite normal for passengers to be unable to board the Liv-Norwich, especially around Sheffield.

I wasn't aware the situation at Sheffield was that bad. I have travelled many times from Stockport to Sheffield, and sometimes on to Langley Mill or Nottingham. I have never not had a seat, though I do try and do this journey off peak where possible.

Passengers at Man Vic can easily get to Piccadilly without any problem. They can get 185s there. Manchester also has a London pendolino every 30minutes, a much newer fleet and generally improved services.

Yes, we all know how easy it is to get from Piccadilly to Rochdale/Hebden Bridge/Blackburn/Clitheroe (which is where many of the commuters live).
I don't think you can try and blame Northern for Manchester having a twice hourly service to London.
I also wouldn't say the Manchester fleet is all that new, not on Northern anyway. Virgin and TPX have newish trains, but nothing on Northern is as new as the 222s.
Services around here have improved vastly as a result of much higher passanger numbers - hence the reason to expand, with bigger trains.

Just because some of your services are busier, does not mean they are more important.

I never said they were, I just don't think that it is acceptable that people are left behind in the peak everyday.

A class 153 was used on a Liverpool-Noriwch service recently, now you are not telling me that is reasonable...

Totally unacceptable, but you'd have us believe the 180s are much more unreliable than the 158 which must have failed in this instance.

You might want to speak to people in Chester who have far less frequent trains to Manchester via Stockport, who have a 142 each day, and by the 2/3rd stops, there is no room for a good hour.

Once again, you surprise me. I have travelled both ways on this journey a good few times, and again have never failed to find a seat. Surely, though, if there is reason for more capacity, then having 180s will free up other units to strengthen these services?

The 180s are a temporary measure until Northern put 2-car 158s, but probably 156s on that line, so your problem is only solved for a year...

That sentence doesn't make sense to me. I think you are saying that we will only have the units for a year, so what difference will it make? A lot of difference. Once the 180s go, the 172s will have arrived. That means a whole lot more 150/1s making their way north from LM.

180s also have an extremely poor reliability rate, so although you may think they can improve a Northern service, I guarantee instead of some passengers being left behind, 5 carriages of passengers will be stuck in the middle of the track waiting for a rescue train from god knows where to come and shunt you out the way.

I used to live in FGW land. Never had a 180 fail on me. I don't deny that they aren't the most reliable of units, but I am sure the fitters will soon understand how they work, and what they need to make them work.

Manchester should not keep getting all the new trains and routes, there are actually places outside the city that need much more improvement.

I can't honestly remember the last time a new route was opened in and around Manchester. We have benefitted from 185s/390s/220/1s, but other parts of the country have also seen new trains. Look at all the 222s, 350s, and soon the 172s. Not to mention the 395s. And now there are new EMUs being built for Glasgow too. I don't think Manchester is getting "all the new trains"

But i don't like having FC in the centre, as you generally get passengers walking through FC, to get to other SC carriages.

You really are a proper snob aren't you?

Bad day???

Not bad, just exhausting.

 

[thelem]

Always seemed silly IMO to have a FC carriage in the middle of the train, anyway :?

From the point of view of a passenger boarding the train it makes sense, because it means it was always be in the same place regardless of which way the train is facing. You could of course also avoid that by having a smaller first class section at both ends of the train, but I'm comparing to having coaches of FC-SC-..-SC

 

[voyagerdude220]

You really are a proper snob aren't you?

Yes :razz:

But what's wrong with me wanting to travel in comfort, with peace and quiet?

Having said that, that's going rather off topic now..

 

[First class]

Why does everyone assume the 172s are coming?? Anything could come, probably new build stuff from China like the replacements for the EMUs in Manchester.

I will reserve judgement on the 180s until I actually see them in service. As for 1st class, it would probably be a good idea if it was at the front/rear, because you've probably got some demand, but unless Northern offered some sort of catering, I would not be happy with a FOR and simply getting a better seat. As for 1st class in the middle, in my experience, people seem scared to walk though it, especially on the 350s.

 

[voyagerdude220]

but unless Northern offered some sort of catering, I would not be happy with a FOR and simply getting a better seat.

I ditto that, which is why, on a similar basis, i never travel FC with FSR, paying over £80 for a biscuit, and "free/complimentary" tea/coffee etc.

As for 1st class in the middle, in my experience, people seem scared to walk though it, especially on the 350s.

So not only does Mintona think i'm a snob, you think I'm scary, and eat people whenever they try to walk through a FC section on a 350?!

 

[Pumbaa]

Why does everyone assume the 172s are coming?? Anything could come, probably new build stuff from China like the replacements for the EMUs in Manchester.

I will reserve judgement on the 180s until I actually see them in service. As for 1st class, it would probably be a good idea if it was at the front/rear, because you've probably got some demand, but unless Northern offered some sort of catering, I would not be happy with a FOR and simply getting a better seat. As for 1st class in the middle, in my experience, people seem scared to walk though it, especially on the 350s.

No, Mintona means (I think) the imminent arrival of 172s into London Midland territory, which were ordered last year, will free up the 150s that LM currently operate.

 

[Mintona]

No, Mintona means (I think) the imminent arrival of 172s into London Midland territory, which were ordered last year, will free up the 150s that LM currently operate.

Yep, that was what I meant, cheers.

 

[Fuzzy Logic]

But if you locked the FC carriage OOU, wouldn't it therefore cause the very rear/front SC carriage, next to the FC carriage, to be un useable, as there would be no way of walking between the SC carriages next to the FC carriage?

True, I'd forgotten that FC in the 180's wasn't at one end. In which case declassifying would be the only sensible option.
I think it isn't a problem in the 350's because of the lack of a buffet service. The problem in the 180's was that some passengers in SC had to wander through FC to get to the buffet.
And it wouldn't be worth refreshing the few 180's northern might get, as the lease is only planned to be temporary anyway.

 

[P156KWJ]

But i don't like having FC in the centre, as you generally get passengers walking through FC, to get to other SC carriages.

Having said that, i've noticed that this problem rarely occurs on class 350's, for some reason....

For some weird reason, Class 185's feel more private IMO, than class 350's, despite having the toilet/small SC priority seating section at the end of the 185's.

Anyway.. back onto topic!

Will the shop/cafe bar area be used, or simply out of service?

my guess is the shop will be locked out of use and maybe used as a store room? That's what they did on Midland Mainline 170s when they were handed to Central Trains (and now XC), and it was a shame when it went after refurbisment this year because there was a table which was fairly hidden round by the buffet, and as it was closed, it was very quiet as you are in the vestibule effectively. incidentally, these units were very starnge for first class. They were built as 2 car units with FC at each end. Whereas when they put new centre cars in, the middle was FC too, in a completely different style! And now it is decomissioned, the units look a right mess...

 

[First class]

I ditto that, which is why, on a similar basis, i never travel FC with FSR, paying over £80 for a biscuit, and "free/complimentary" tea/coffee etc.




So not only does Mintona think i'm a snob, you think I'm scary, and eat people whenever they try to walk through a FC section on a 350?!

Haha, you know what I mean

I find it shocking that on my FOR, I can get a Pendo Primo breakfast on Liverpool-Euston, and on the way back I can get a Pendo Primo Dinner... as well as unlimited tea/coffee, head phones and use of showers/telephone/broadband at Euston, but a FOR from Liverpool to say Birmingham, I get nothing except a cup of tea

 

[P156KWJ]

try London Midland first class on 321s - bet first class means you actually get a seat and some decent traction motor sounds bit like FCC 319s, although they have decent looking seats

 

[Ben]

Can I just ask where the 180s would go on arrival at Huddersfield? platform 4a/b would be too short unless there was incredibly short turn around times. Sounds like typical ned froth to me.

 

[Philip]

Can I just ask where the 180s would go on arrival at Huddersfield? platform 4a/b would be too short unless there was incredibly short turn around times. Sounds like typical ned froth to me.

There seems to be a contradiction of reports about this. On another forum a few from Northern who work at Victoria have said nothing about 180's going east of Manchester. The vast majority have said they're to be used on Manchester-Blackpool, nothing else - I'd take the rumours about them working to Huddersfield as a bigger pinch of salt.

If Northern are only getting three 180's then that won't be enough to cover even half of the Blackpool diagrams, if they're going to work to Huddersfield as well.

 

[AlexS]

try London Midland first class on 321s - bet first class means you actually get a seat and some decent traction motor sounds bit like FCC 319s, although they have decent looking seats

Motor coach on 321s is all standard class anyway!!!

 

[class 313]

try London Midland first class on 321s - bet first class means you actually get a seat and some decent traction motor sounds bit like FCC 319s, although they have decent looking seats

Oh no you didn't just say that!

You couldn't get it more wrong The motor coach is next to the toilet coach. FC on 321s and 319s are in one of the driving coaches (for LM 321s that's usually Country end).

P.S. 321 FC have 442 seats.

 

[1D53]

Can I just ask where the 180s would go on arrival at Huddersfield? platform 4a/b would be too short unless there was incredibly short turn around times. Sounds like typical ned froth to me.

They would probably use all of 4 with the Leeds local fitting into 5/6. I hear they are only going to Huddersfield peak time so short turnarounds wouldn't suprise me.

 

[bluenoxid]

Which is why all the new Electric Desiros have FC bang smack in the middle. Well designed there... :neutral: Clever Siemens

Erm yes it is in fact. It is so it can be policed. The Guard on SWT has an office in the centre of the train. They cannot use a cab which the driver is in. If it is a the end of a train, the guard will be at either the correct end or the wrong end.

So when a train is busy they have a small base in the centre of train and keep an eye on FC. One of the biggest bugbears of FC passengers is plonkers invading it.

If the guards office was moved to an end of the train, they would have difficulty at curved stations and they would have to go through 4 carriages to get to the other end of train (or even 8 or 12).

 

[Pumbaa]

Ah - thanks for that Blue Noxid, I had often wondered what that little box was on the 350s on my morning commute (I usually travel just inside the London end of the car containing FC). Seems quite practical actually.

If the guards office was moved to an end of the train, they would have difficulty at curved stations and they would have to go through 4 carriages to get to the other end of train

Eh? I thought Desiros in common with most other stock had panels at vestibules all through the train? I'd hope so, unless LM guards open the doors by magic whilst stood in vestibules... :grin:

 

[bluenoxid]

They do but to move through a packed train is difficult at the best of times.

 

[Bayum]

Erm yes it is in fact. It is so it can be policed. The Guard on SWT has an office in the centre of the train. They cannot use a cab which the driver is in. If it is a the end of a train, the guard will be at either the correct end or the wrong end.

So when a train is busy they have a small base in the centre of train and keep an eye on FC. One of the biggest bugbears of FC passengers is plonkers invading it.

If the guards office was moved to an end of the train, they would have difficulty at curved stations and they would have to go through 4 carriages to get to the other end of train (or even 8 or 12).

Is that like the Pendolino's dya mean?? Like where the guard van is on there??