Halton Curve upgrade is on

[8A Rail]

I do not think many would share your opinion.

yes Childwall Blues, I agree with your sentiments too. The area of Beechwood is a considerable size in Runcorn and being close to the Halton - Frodsham line, I think a station could be built on that line to serve that community especially with trains direct to Liverpool. By doing this, it would leave Runcorn Station to serve its main core of business which are the I/C trains to London and Birmingham.

However, this possibility could only happen if trains to / from North Wales (not solely Chester) go to / from Liverpool Lime St. To me that is the real reason for reopening the line to everyday passenger trains not just a "local" service between Chester and Lime St - that to me seems pointless and a waste of time given there are reasonable alternatives.

 

[Philip C]

However, this possibility could only happen if trains to / from North Wales (not solely Chester) go to / from Liverpool Lime St. To me that is the real reason for reopening the line to everyday passenger trains not just a "local" service between Chester and Lime St - that to me seems pointless and a waste of time given there are reasonable alternatives.

Please explain the logic behind saying that 'this possibility could only happen....' I'm not following your contention.

 

[8A Rail]

Please explain the logic behind saying that 'this possibility could only happen....' I'm not following your contention.

As things stand at the moment, no one knows for certain if the reinstatement of the Halton Curve to passenger status is actually for "Local" services or the main idea is reintroduce the "North Wales" trains to / from Liverpool Lime St. Reading various threads on here as well as items in the public domain from other sources, there is no definite indication as such - it seems to be up in the air although in some quarters that is the ultimate aim.

Again personally, the key to the Halton Curve has got to be the reintroduction of the through North Wales services. Anything else wont make any major differance to Liverpool City Region and makes the Halton Curve a white elephant, like it is now! Hopefully that makes it clearer?

 

[frodshamfella]

yes Childwall Blues, I agree with your sentiments too. The area of Beechwood is a considerable size in Runcorn and being close to the Halton - Frodsham line, I think a station could be built on that line to serve that community especially with trains direct to Liverpool. By doing this, it would leave Runcorn Station to serve its main core of business which are the I/C trains to London and Birmingham.

However, this possibility could only happen if trains to / from North Wales (not solely Chester) go to / from Liverpool Lime St. To me that is the real reason for reopening the line to everyday passenger trains not just a "local" service between Chester and Lime St - that to me seems pointless and a waste of time given there are reasonable alternatives.

Yes agree with you, people in Beechwood would be more likely to use a local station there for getting into Liverpool if available, their other options are drive to Runcorn Station park ( added cost ) or bus to Runcorn Station added cost and time to journey. There was a station at Sutton Weaver once, I guess quite close to Beechwood area.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Yes agree with you, people in Beechwood would be more likely to use a local station there for getting into Liverpool if available, their other options are drive to Runcorn Station park ( added cost ) or bus to Runcorn Station added cost and time to journey. There was a station at Sutton Weaver once, I guess quite close to Beechwood area.

Sutton Weaver station closed on 30th April 1942

 

[kieron]

Yes agree with you, people in Beechwood would be more likely to use a local station there for getting into Liverpool if available, their other options are drive to Runcorn Station park ( added cost ) or bus to Runcorn Station added cost and time to journey. There was a station at Sutton Weaver once, I guess quite close to Beechwood area.

The 2015 business case document for the Halton Curve says that this was considered in a 2009 study, but that this concluded that (for both Beechwood and Ditton) the station would attract a significant number of passengers, but that there wasn't a particularly strong case for it.

It doesn't mention any station opening proposals elsewhere in the document, so I think it's safe to say that they're not part of the current plan.

 

[Silversmith]

yes Childwall Blues, I agree with your sentiments too. The area of Beechwood is a considerable size in Runcorn and being close to the Halton - Frodsham line, I think a station could be built on that line to serve that community especially with trains direct to Liverpool. By doing this, it would leave Runcorn Station to serve its main core of business which are the I/C trains to London and Birmingham.

I'd be interested to read what proposals people have for a hypothetical Beechwood station site. Much of the area is housing stock. A Beechwood station would be too close to Runcorn and Frodsham stations, and it's difficult to really see the genuine business case.

Sutton Weaver station closed on 30th April 1942

The station house is now a private residence.

 

[6Gman]

As things stand at the moment, no one knows for certain if the reinstatement of the Halton Curve to passenger status is actually for "Local" services or the main idea is reintroduce the "North Wales" trains to / from Liverpool Lime St. Reading various threads on here as well as items in the public domain from other sources, there is no definite indication as such - it seems to be up in the air although in some quarters that is the ultimate aim.

Again personally, the key to the Halton Curve has got to be the reintroduction of the through North Wales services. Anything else wont make any major differance to Liverpool City Region and makes the Halton Curve a white elephant, like it is now! Hopefully that makes it clearer?

I'm assuming that by North Wales you mean the coast?

If so, what would the Coast timetable look like?

 

[8A Rail]

I'm assuming that by North Wales you mean the coast?

Yes but also the line to Wrexham too.

If so, what would the Coast timetable look like?

Ask the railway timetable planners.

Personally I be looking for at least one train per hour / two hours between Lime St and Llandudno would be best bet. May be a occaional train to Bangor and / or Holyhead but best option certainly be Llandudno.

Wrexham could come into the frame too if Llandudno train is every two hours, then Wrexham train could be on same frequency in between the Llandudno service. However, I accept that Wrexham may be better served as at present with the Bidston train.

 

[edwin_m]

Assuming that splitting the North-South trains is a no-go, the place westwards from Chester that most feels like it needs an extra service is Wrexham. I'd suggest that the new service should run there hourly rather than displacing one of the existing Coast services, because it's better not to damage an existing proven passenger flow for the sake of building a new one that may or may not meet expectations.

Unfortunately, as discussed at length elsewhere, the amount of doubling on Chester-Wrexham isn't quite enough to make that easily possible...

Editing to think about Doug's point just posted on the Bidston train: Yes this route provides an alternative between Liverpool and Wrexham if people are prepared to make a change at Bidston which feels like the middle of nowhere. It might also provide an alternative between Liverpool and the Coast if both the service and the station at Shotton were drastically improved. Major development of the Bidston line seems to have gone quiet at present, but if it ever happened it might then become more sensible to run Liverpool-Llandudno and Manchester-Wrexham instead.

 

[Philip C]

Editing to think about Doug's point just posted on the Bidston train: Yes this route provides an alternative between Liverpool and Wrexham if people are prepared to make a change at Bidston which feels like the middle of nowhere. It might also provide an alternative between Liverpool and the Coast if both the service and the station at Shotton were drastically improved. Major development of the Bidston line seems to have gone quiet at present, but if it ever happened it might then become more sensible to run Liverpool-Llandudno and Manchester-Wrexham instead.

I'm having real problems following your line of argument. Are you really saying that we now need TWO routes, with regular services (one direct and one with changes at Bidston) between Shotton and Liverpool but that anyone wishing to proceed between North Wales and Warrington (for the North)/Manchester/Yorkshire would need to change at Chester and have no through service at all? And if not, just what are you proposing?

 

[edwin_m]

I'm having real problems following your line of argument. Are you really saying that we now need TWO routes, with regular services (one direct and one with changes at Bidston) between Shotton and Liverpool but that anyone wishing to proceed between North Wales and Manchester/Yorkshire would need to change at Chester and have no through service at all? And if not, just what are you proposing?

That would be one possible consequence of a Borderlands line upgrade if Wales services via Halton Curve were already in place. The alternative would be two services between Wrexham and Liverpool. I don't believe both routes are actually "needed" in either case, as they are to some extent alternative solutions to the same problem. This suggests that Halton Curve Wales services will weaken the case for any Borderlands line enhancement.

 

[childwallblues]

A lot will ride on decisions made by Merseytravel who are keen to get the service started as soon as the junctions are in place at each end of the line.

 

[8A Rail]

................ but if it ever happened it might then become more sensible to run Liverpool-Llandudno and Manchester-Wrexham instead.

That would be idea with the Wrexham - Bidston (Liverpool) service remaining as it is. However, I don't think Manchester would want to lose their service to North Wales (Llandudno etc) with it being replaced by a service to Wrexham. It would not surprise me if eventually Liverpool and Manchester share alternative trains to the coast assuming that this could be the thinking by some organisations somewhere?

 

[edwin_m]

A lot will ride on decisions made by Merseytravel who are keen to get the service started as soon as the junctions are in place at each end of the line.

Have they identified a source for an extra DMU or two? It would be a shame if this becomes another Todmorden Curve situation, or units recently allocated to strengthen busy services elsewhere have to be taken away again.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

That would be idea with the Wrexham - Bidston (Liverpool) service remaining as it is. However, I don't think Manchester would want to lose their service to North Wales (Llandudno etc) with it being replaced by a service to Wrexham. It would not surprise me if eventually Liverpool and Manchester share alternative trains to the coast assuming that this could be the thinking by some organisations somewhere?

Yes, various service permutations are possible and all of them have advantages and disadvantages. My personal view is that it should be houly Liverpool-Wrexham to keep things relatively simple, and the Bidston line should be considered as a way to get people to the employment sites at Dee Marsh rather than for through journeys.

 

[frodshamfella]

It must make more sense that the services over the Halton Curve be for direct North Wales services as it used to be. Had the lifting of one of tracks never had been done ,with the increases in population movement of people and traffic issues this route would likely already be busy.

 

[childwallblues]

Have they identified a source for an extra DMU or two? It would be a shame if this becomes another Todmorden Curve situation, or units recently allocated to strengthen busy services elsewhere have to be taken away again.

I assume that Arriva Trains Wales will be running the service. They would require probably an additional 2 x Class 150 for the service.

 

[edwin_m]

I assume that Arriva Trains Wales will be running the service. They would require probably an additional 2 x Class 150 for the service.

It could be Northern in the short term, at least until either the ATW franchise renewal or the service extends west of Chester. Whichever, does anyone know where they would get the units from?

 

[Railman]

Historically was it only a Liverpool - Chester DMU with the occaisional holiday extra to North wales?
The amount of regular commuters from either Wrexham or Llandudno to Liverpool must be small by any standards, but its the opportunities for travel between the intermediate stations which it would open up that's equally important. How many through tickets are sold on the hourly Manchester - Llandudno service that has run for years? yet it is a very popular service for all the stations in between. If it did not exist already would anyone doing a report identify it as a service we should put on?
The next franchise will extend the service beyond Manchester to Halifax/Bradford, That cannot be based on the needs of Bradford to Llandudno commuters.

 

[childwallblues]

It could be Northern in the short term, at least until either the ATW franchise renewal or the service extends west of Chester. Whichever, does anyone know where they would get the units from?

They could well come from Great Western as they will release 150 when 165/166 migrate west from London.

 

[WatcherZero]

The Outline Business Case is heavily redacted but it examined ten service options over 60 years. An hourly Chester-Liverpool via Runcorn operated by two 150's achieved the second highest economic benefit at BCR 1.8 just behind an hourly Wrexham service operated by three 150's at 1.9. It doesn't suggest who would operate the service but notes both ATW and Northern operate 150's. However neither service breaks even within the first 10 years requiring ongoing subsidy to operate and for the Welsh portion is highly abstractive requiring large amounts of compensation for loss of passengers from other services. Merseytravel agrees to subsidise a Chester-Liverpool service for an initial three years. Finally it notes the class 150 would be expected to be retired in 2027/28 and it will require capital expenditure on new rolling stock to replace them at that point.

 

[daikilo]

Can't find any evidence of a service over the curve in the new Northern franchise so presumable it will be either Merseyrail or in the next "ATW" franchise.

 

[krus_aragon]

The next franchise will extend the service beyond Manchester to Halifax/Bradford, That cannot be based on the needs of Bradford to Llandudno commuters.

Assuming you're referring to the next Northern franchise (as opposed to Wales & Borders), it specifies an additional service from Chester to Bradford/Leeds, not extending the Llandudno service.

 

[Chester1]

The Outline Business Case is heavily redacted but it examined ten service options over 60 years. An hourly Chester-Liverpool via Runcorn operated by two 150's achieved the second highest economic benefit at BCR 1.8 just behind an hourly Wrexham service operated by three 150's at 1.9. It doesn't suggest who would operate the service but notes both ATW and Northern operate 150's. However neither service breaks even within the first 10 years requiring ongoing subsidy to operate and for the Welsh portion is highly abstractive requiring large amounts of compensation for loss of passengers from other services. Merseytravel agrees to subsidise a Chester-Liverpool service for an initial three years. Finally it notes the class 150 would be expected to be retired in 2027/28 and it will require capital expenditure on new rolling stock to replace them at that point.

Thanks to the moronic decision to scale back the redoubling of Chester-Wrexham there is not the capacity for a hourly Liverpool-Wrexham service via the Halton Curve in addition to current services. Politics dictates increasing Holyhead-Cardiff to an hourly frequency. Theoretically, the Holyhead-Birmingham service could but cut back to Holyhead-Chester with Birmingham International-Shrewsbury added to London-Midland services but I highly doubt it. Even then, 2tph hour each direction between Chester and Wrexham would push the limit of the lines capacity.

Can't find any evidence of a service over the curve in the new Northern franchise so presumable it will be either Merseyrail or in the next "ATW" franchise.

There is absolutely no chance of Merseyrail running diesel Halton Curve services. All Merseyrail trains are 3rd rail and the system works well because its basically self contained. There is the possibility that overhead electric services could be transferred to Merseyrail in the future (e.g. Liverpool-Wigan/Warrington) and the extentsion of the network with overhead power and the use of dual stock e.g. Bidston-Wrexham and Ormskirk-Preston/Southport but the business cases currently don't add up.

It is probably not in the Northern Rail franchise because the necessary work has not been completed and things can change in the next year or two, the DfT is keeping its options open. My bet is definitely on a hourly Liverpool-Chester DMU service operated by Arriva Rail North.

 

[childwallblues]

It is probably not in the Northern Rail franchise because the necessary work has not been completed and things can change in the next year or two, the DfT is keeping its options open. My bet is definitely on a hourly Liverpool-Chester DMU service operated by Arriva Rail North.[/QUOTE]

We will see. The ATW manager that I spoke to thought that they would run it.

 

[WatcherZero]

Relevant to our recent discussion is Merseytravels submission to a Welsh Rail consultation.

http://moderngov.merseytravel.uk.ne...r the future of Welsh Rail Infrastructure.pdf

 

[Chester1]

Relevant to our recent discussion is Merseytravels submission to a Welsh Rail consultation.

http://moderngov.merseytravel.uk.ne...r the future of Welsh Rail Infrastructure.pdf

It confims what myself and others have being saying for ages, that the current Wrexham-Chester upgrade is insufficent to allow ATW to run a service between Wrexham and Liverpool. Unless the upgrade is increased back to its original level or ATW want to run a second England only service from Chester then the new service will be run by Arriva Rail North. The fact that Arriva will definately be running Northern Franchise but may lose Wales and Borders in a couple of years gives Arriva even less incentive to push for ATW to run the service.

 

[frodshamfella]

Relevant to our recent discussion is Merseytravels submission to a Welsh Rail consultation.

http://moderngov.merseytravel.uk.ne...r the future of Welsh Rail Infrastructure.pdf

Interesting reading, thanks

 

[Railman]

Having taken a look at the Merseytravel document, it seems like the best case I've seen for a while for bringing back BR.

 

[kieron]

Unless the upgrade is increased back to its original level or ATW want to run a second England only service from Chester then the new service will be run by Arriva Rail North.

I don't think ATW would want to seem too keen on the idea anyway, just in case it gave politicians the idea that they wouldn't need to be paid handsomely to run on the line.

And you never know, the WG could decide to pay them to run it down the coast.