End of Yellow Front Ends?

[GB]

The yellow ends have been on the front of trains for years, I can't see it costing any more to have yellow on the front than it does to have any other colour so instead of asking what benefit the yellow brings, we should be asking what benefit there is not to have it.

I can't see any beneficial reason not to have yellow on the front therefore in my opinion its needlessly regressive.

 

[Clip]

The yellow ends have been on the front of trains for years, I can't see it costing any more to have yellow on the front than it does to have any other colour so instead of asking what benefit the yellow brings, we should be asking what benefit there is not to have it.

I can't see any beneficial reason not to have yellow on the front therefore in my opinion its needlessly regressive.

Because time and standards move on. Remember it was only brought in for the new locos which were quieter than steam and due to lamps not being sufficiently bright enough at the time.

Now they are and only if the vehicles can abide by that standard as documented.

Its not regressive, its progress and if the lookout is worth his salt then it will not pose a problem to them hence why the standard now has heights as well as direction(for you drivers) to be able to see them and reduce glare for you all .

 

[455driver]

I believe it was more that the number of track side staff being killed by trains started to rise sharply once the new diesel and electric trains were introduced in the 1950s. Steam locomotives were very loud and hard to miss the new trains were considerably quieter until they were almost right on top of you so the yellow warning panel was added to help mitigate against this and make them much more obvious.

That's my understanding at least!

That's about it, 'the silent killers' they were called!

 

[the sniper]

What happens when a train comes at you on a grey morning painted in a nice shade of ballast grey and the driver has forgotten to turn the headlights on? You might have super duper headlights but if they're not turned on they're not much help... Has no one else seen a train running without any lights?

This is change for change's sake. Here's hoping it's never considered a contributing factor in someone's death.

 

[RichmondCommu]

Can't fully agree with that. People judge the (perceived) quality of the train, TOC & journey on the initial exterior appearance of the train they are about to board, so it's important to present a good image. By your logic why not make all trains plain black and make carriage washers redundant??

I'm sorry but people pay very little attention to the train that has just arrived into the platform. All that is on their mind is; is this the right train / will the door of the carriage stop by me / will I get a seat / can I find my seat reservation / can I find my seat / I wonder where I can put my luggage. Having found the train / watched the train arrive they have too much on their mind to even look at the train. I use East Midlands Trains several times a month to travel from London to Derby and yet I honestly have no idea what colour the trains are. I know whether its a Meridian or a HST and that's pretty much that. And I'm a rail enthusiast!

As long as externally and internally the train is in a good state of repair that's all passengers care about. The trains could have been designed by a team of colour blind moles and passengers would still happily use it. I think it would be rather silly to get rid of carriage washers as you would have no way of combating corrosion and the windows would be filthy. Also, for what its worth black shows up the dirt where as brown doesn't. I'm absolutely serious in suggesting that brown would be a good colour for the outside of trains.

 

[the sniper]

I think the truth is somewhere between the extremes of your's and Ash's position...

I don't think painting all the trains s*** brown in a industry which many passengers consider to be s*** would go unnoticed or be beneficial. If you're painting the trains, which you've got to do nowadays, it makes no sense not to make them look smart. Impressions do count, but in the grand scheme of things a normal train livery isn't normally going to make any great impression on your average passenger. It is what it is.

Plus I think most people who travel frequently vaguely know the colour of the train/TOC they'd normally travel on. Just go to somewhere like Birmingham New Street where you'll see the majority of people not jumping onto incorrect trains, even if the screens suggest they should. While I'd agree many people leave their consciousness behind when they enter the railway, I believe your level of unawareness is fairly uncommon, particularly unusual given your further interest in the railway.

 

[Townsend Hook]

As someone who works red-zone on track very frequently, I have no issue with the removal of yellow ends because the headlights are so very visible. For everyone who says that drivers might forget to turn them on, they are safety critical equipment and it is totally reasonable to expect drivers to remember to switch them on every time, in exactly the same way as they are expected (for instance) to make sure the TPWS is active.

 

[birchesgreen]

Is it a good idea to rely on people never making mistakes when you can have something which is pretty fail safe i.e. a yellow front end?

As i don't work on the track I have no strong opinions either way though aesthetically i think trains look better with yellow ends as it gives a definitive beginning and end to the livery.

 

[swt_passenger]

Is it a good idea to rely on people never making mistakes when you can have something which is pretty fail safe i.e. a yellow front end?

As i don't work on the track I have no strong opinions either way though aesthetically i think trains look better with yellow ends as it gives a definitive beginning and end to the livery.

Many trains don't have full 'yellow ends' under the current rules. They have at least a defined minimum yellow area, that (as has been discussed over the last few years) only needs to be 1 sq m, with one side a minimum length of 1.6 m.

So in theory many 'yellow areas' could be reduced anyway, even without the headlights being up to spec.

I also recall there was some discussion about whether or not the yellow buffer beam area on the typical 59 actually met the dimensions required in the current railway group standard.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Is it a good idea to rely on people never making mistakes when you can have something which is pretty fail safe i.e. a yellow front end?

As i don't work on the track I have no strong opinions either way though aesthetically i think trains look better with yellow ends as it gives a definitive beginning and end to the livery.

I too think that the yellow ends look good, though it could just be familiarity. Certainly the many photoshops where the yellow panel is removed look ridiculous to me...

 

[Elecman]

Is it a good idea to rely on people never making mistakes when you can have something which is pretty fail safe i.e. a yellow front end?

Shouldn't it be therefore be made a requirement that the headlights be interlocked with the master switch so the driver can't forget to turn them on?

 

[AM9]

I think because by immediately introducing a photoshopped front end it turned into a sort of 'effect on liveries' discussion, whereas the more informed posters seem to want a discussion about the effect on how to safely see a train in the distance...

I didn't think that there was an embargo to all except for 'informed' posters to discuss issues on a post. Clearly, one can't have a conversation with your own posts (unless you are beside yourself ), but there are posts on this thread discussing things other than track safety that have as much relevance to the original post.

 

[Mojo]

With the possible exception of the organisation who actually designed the trains it seems to me that the only people who care about the aesthetics of a train are rail enthusiasts. In which case why should anyone, let alone the TOC's care as to what a rail enthusiast thinks? Let's face facts; its just a train. As long as it arrives / departs on time and they get a seat passengers couldn't give a monkeys what it looks like. In all of this, along with people working on the tracks they are the only group of people that matter here.

Someone obviously does care otherwise the RSSB wouldn't have wasted all that time and money in consulting on, investigating, and implementing the change to their standards.

 

[GB]

So what benefit is there not to have a yellow warning panel?

 

[AM9]

I too think that the yellow ends look good, though it could just be familiarity. Certainly the many photoshops where the yellow panel is removed look ridiculous to me...

Certainly, familiarity can make a change look less attractive. I do however clearly remember the intoduction of first yellow panels, (usually where the cables are hung under the driver's windscreens) and eventually the full end painting yellow. There were many attractive designs of Locomotives and Multiple Units which were spoilt by the yellow ends (which also quickly became a far less visible colour when it was encrusted with oil, salt, dust and of course squashed insects, slightly reducing its original intended purpose). It seems that about that time that some rolling stock ceased to be kept as clean as when the visual co-ordination of its original livery was broken.

 

[swt_passenger]

Someone obviously does care otherwise the RSSB wouldn't have wasted all that time and money in consulting on, investigating, and implementing the change to their standards.

Conforming with European TSIs was my supposition earlier. In the long term it would avoid having to have a chap with some yellow paint hanging about in the vicinity of the Channel Tunnel.

 

[najaB]

For everyone who says that drivers might forget to turn them on, they are safety critical equipment and it is totally reasonable to expect drivers to remember to switch them on every time, in exactly the same way as they are expected (for instance) to make sure the TPWS is active.

On newer units are the lights not automated to come on when activating the cab and also proved working with failures flagged in the TMS?

 

[185]

To quote Los Angeles Metro:

"We have chosen an eyecatching replacement paint scheme, used in the United Kingdom which we feel better helps Drivers, Bicyclists and Pedestrians easily identify an approaching train"

De ja vous.....

 

[TRAX]

Some of you have been mentioning the lack of yellow front ends in the rest of Europe, and as the various new French liveries display a nice shade of dark grey on the front ends I can say it is not considered an issue here.

As someone here pointed out, I too feel a flashy colour is not necessary - I think it's more about contrast. In France you will easily see the big black thing approaching you during the day, and at night the headlights will be sufficient (we use three, including one at the top).

A few photographic examples:

 

[ExRes]

I think this one shows it more clearly

https://www.google.co.uk/imgres?img...d=0ahUKEwjOqIidxtbJAhWIVxoKHXWvAGMQMwg8KBgwGA

I understand that the average American has been unable to defend himself/herself properly due to the lack of sighting, the yellow fronts are being introduced in order to help cut out wasted ammunition

 

[Clip]

To quote Los Angeles Metro:

"We have chosen an eyecatching replacement paint scheme, used in the United Kingdom which we feel better helps Drivers, Bicyclists and Pedestrians easily identify an approaching train"

De ja vous.....

So that's your justification for keeping yellow ends because someone else is doing it?

'Look Look theyre doing it so it must be a good thing'

Christ that's a new low. I mean if they were so effective for cyclists and pedestrians then why are the front of buses not painted bright yellow? Remember our railway is generally all fenced off and buses have much more public interaction so why not them but trains?

See seems silly now.

This is change for change's sake. Here's hoping it's never considered a contributing factor in someone's death.

Yes lets hope people don't make outrageous statements, oh wait.

 

[185]

So that's your justification for keeping yellow ends because someone else is doing it? '
Look Look theyre doing it so it must be a good thing'
Christ that's a new low.
I mean if they were so effective for cyclists and pedestrians then why are the front of buses not painted bright yellow?
Remember our railway is generally all fenced off and buses have much more public interaction so why not them but trains?

See seems silly now.

Yes lets

hope
people don't make outrageous statements, oh wait.

Mine was a simple post which quite clearly illustrated another country following our country as industry best practice.

If you actually took a moment to research what LA Metro is, rather than go just into a rant... you would understand most, probably 95% of the LA Metro line is segregated railway track, with hundreds of at-grade level crossings with high numbers of collisions occurring through people doing left turns and jumping lights/barriers. The colour yellow was chosen to at least give people a second chance to realise they need to get out of the way.

Everyone has an opinion on this, and don't get angry if you see something you don't agree with.

 

[GB]

So that's your justification for keeping yellow ends because someone else is doing it?

'Look Look theyre doing it so it must be a good thing'

Christ that's a new low. I mean if they were so effective for cyclists and pedestrians then why are the front of buses not painted bright yellow? Remember our railway is generally all fenced off and buses have much more public interaction so why not them but trains?

See seems silly now.



Yes lets hope people don't make outrageous statements, oh wait.

You seems very angry and defensive over all of this.

 

[ian959]

Mine was a simple post which quite clearly illustrated another country following our country as industry best practice.

Not a country but a single operator within the country. How many hundreds of operators in that country don't feel the need? Most operators use the flashing front lights when approaching level crossings and from experience as a car driver I find them far more effective than a yellow front. With the increasing use of the very visible LED lights on trains, I doubt even flashing lights will be necessary in the future.

I never understood the need for the yellow warning panels on British trains and nor did the vast bulk of railway systems in the world. Even if there was a need originally a need, the ever burgeoning H & S requirements slowly rendered the yellow warning panel less of a necessity..

 

[jonty14]

With the possible exception of the organisation who actually designed the trains it seems to me that the only people who care about the aesthetics of a train are rail enthusiasts. In which case why should anyone, let alone the TOC's care as to what a rail enthusiast thinks? Let's face facts; its just a train. As long as it arrives / departs on time and they get a seat passengers couldn't give a monkeys what it looks like. In all of this, along with people working on the tracks they are the only group of people that matter here.

Here we go again. Anti enthusiasts!! Nobody cares what you think!! I know I don't!

 

[455driver]

Shouldn't it be therefore be made a requirement that the headlights be interlocked with the master switch so the driver can't forget to turn them on?

Which headlight, night or day?
What if the headlight fails?
What if we need to make a wrong direction move and to comply with the rules and regs we have to leave the whites/headlight on at the rear?

I could go on!

 

[rf_ioliver]

Some of you have been mentioning the lack of yellow front ends in the rest of Europe, and as the various new French liveries display a nice shade of dark grey on the front ends I can say it is not considered an issue here.

As someone here pointed out, I too feel a flashy colour is not necessary - I think it's more about contrast. ... <snipped>

Finnish railways tried to introduce a DMU back in the 90's with both yellow and black front-ends...

First the black version - which would have been interesting considering the number of unprotected level crossings here, with a subtle combinations of long dark nights (and days!), poor weather etc:

http://vaunut.org/kuva/11612

and the enhanced version: http://vaunut.org/kuva/11525


Now there's been a trend for enhancing trains with fluorescent paint:

eg: http://vaunut.org/kuva/10705 and http://vaunut.org/kuva/107002

t.

Ian

 

[Clip]

Mine was a simple post which quite clearly illustrated another country following our country as industry best practice.

If you actually took a moment to research what LA Metro is, rather than go just into a rant... you would understand most, probably 95% of the LA Metro line is segregated railway track, with hundreds of at-grade level crossings with high numbers of collisions occurring through people doing left turns and jumping lights/barriers. The colour yellow was chosen to at least give people a second chance to realise they need to get out of the way.

Everyone has an opinion on this, and don't get angry if you see something you don't agree with.

I'm not angry at all I'm merely pointing out that one operator(not a country Id also like to point out again) is using it on their new trains. You cant help people encroaching on to a railway line I mean we have trams all over the country that run on segregated lines as well as on street where it is more dangerous but they don't have yellow fronts. So why do they not have them either?

Our new industry standard is that new trains will not need them due to the advances made in the equipment on the front of the trains - this is the point some of you are missing by a country mile because you don't want any change.

You cant state it is less safe without having them can you as you have never worked without them have you?

You seems very angry and defensive over all of this.

Well you would be wrong as well, it seems to be catching round here.

And none of you have addressed the issue that Arctic Troll pointed out in as much that we already have trains rattling around parts of our network without yellow ends and how unsafe has this been over the years for track workers. I'm sure you cant point these stats out to me to prove that this practice is unsafe.

Which headlight, night or day?The new standard from what I can make out from the document states all three will be on all the time from memory the LO units currently have them all on all day long
What if the headlight fails?What happens now if a headlight fails?
What if we need to make a wrong direction move and to comply with the rules and regs we have to leave the whites/headlight on at the rear?That's an easy override which I don't doubt is already in practice on the new units with the top middle headlight

I could go on!

 

[Phil.]

Accidents which immediately come to mind.
Trackman, many years of experience. A yellow fronted train still hit him at Merstham some time ago.
Trackman, many years of experience. A yellow fronted train still hit him at Vauxhall about twenty years ago.
Guard, ex fireman. A yellow fronted train hit him at Hornsey many moons ago.
Now, if these accidents had happened after yellow fronts had been abolished what would have been said? Yellow fronts are of no use in the dark.
Headlamps/marker lights are the way forwards. The days of 80 mph CIGs batting down a fast line on a winters night with just an illuminated number 2 on the front are thankfully long gone.

 

[GB]

You cant state it is less safe without having them can you as you have never worked without them have you?

That logic works against your argument then surely?

What about in those early mornings when the sun is low and effectively bleaching out whats behind? I'd suggest a big yellow blob is easier to spot than a dark one.

What about in yards when you won't have these high intensity lights switched on. I'd suggest a big yellow blob is easier to spot than a dark one.