Christmas Day Bus Services for London

[NorthernSpirit]

Plenty of industries work Christmas... TV, etc.

On Christmas Day TV and Radio broadcasts that are aired on the 25th are usually pre records that were done a few days before hand as most of the output on the day is automated. A radio station that I volunteer at has a live extended breakfast show followed by a series of pre records throughout the day and into the night then at midnight into the usual overnight automation. Not only it allows volunteers some time off but also it allows any repairs to be dealt with, such as mixing desk getting cleaned.

Buses on the other hand, different kettle of Turkey (well I had to).

 

[pitdiver]

Put it this way, I'm part of the last generation (born sometime between 1984 to 1994) that actually celebrates Christmas. For some Christmas, New Year and Easter are the only times that they can get off work.

It also allows people to have time off so that they can be with their families, unless they're a millitant atheist crank then they can do without.

Nationally a standard service on the 25th December wouldn't work, who would want to drive a bus when they're looking forward to a roast with their wife and kids.

Boxing Day is almost normal service from about 0800 from both Megabus and National Express.

Still wouldn't work if I need not to.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Put it this way, I'm part of the last generation (born sometime between 1984 to 1994) that actually celebrates Christmas.

I disagree. Why would those who are younger not celebrate it, even if it is as I tend to see it (a family time rather than specifically a religious one)?

And then there are Muslims, Sikhs, Hindus...or just those who don't have much family and are alone and depressed on a day like Christmas and would rather work!

Nationally a standard service on the 25th December wouldn't work, who would want to drive a bus when they're looking forward to a roast with their wife and kids.

A full service would be unnecessary and would not have enough custom, but an outline service probably would.

TBH, though, the main thing I'd lose is the Christmas Eve early close-down. That is more of a problem to those who have to work Christmas Eve and then can't get to family. With some clever scheduling and with a suitable overtime rate paid for it, I'm sure you'd get volunteers.

 

[miami]

On Christmas Day TV and Radio broadcasts that are aired on the 25th are usually pre records that were done a few days before hand as most of the output on the day is automated.

Most output is automated anyway, even on the main channels. In news though it's a different situation - although there are more features and back half hours, and a skeleton staff, probably about half of those in on a typical weekend. And there's always a crew in Bethlehem.

Not only it allows volunteers some time off but also it allows any repairs to be dealt with, such as mixing desk getting cleaned.

Hmm, only one desk leads to badness, can't they switch in the overnight sustain feed and bypass the desk, or use an emergency desk (£30 from CPC) to run a pre-rec?

Buses on the other hand, different kettle of Turkey (well I had to).

How do the people cleaning those mixing desks get to work? How about the engineering work that's done on the trains at christmas? Christmas is one of the busiest times of the year for some areas precisely because fewer people are about.

When I did shifts there were never problems with people signing up for a £50 bonus for working a 12 hour shift on christmas day. Normally there'd be about 20 people in over the 24 hours at some point (more during the day), and this dropped to about 1/2 of that.

 

[NorthernSpirit]

I disagree. Why would those who are younger not celebrate it, even if it is as I tend to see it (a family time rather than specifically a religious one)?

In my view most of the 1995 generation onwards think religion is a joke (most kids these days are atheists), I don't think any of them have ever stepped foot into a church, cathedral or even a minster and have even gone to Midnight Mass and have no idea what Christmas is actually about, most can't speak properly as they keep saying 'and I was like' every couple of sentences - its sounds robotic.

 

[radamfi]

In my view most of the 1995 generation onwards think religion is a joke (most kids these days are atheists), I don't think any of them have ever stepped foot into a church, cathedral or even a minster and have even gone to Midnight Mass

If that's true, that's no bad thing. I say this as someone who went to Catholic schools, and so was subjected to indoctrination for over a decade.

Most people outside London are not affected by the Christmas public transport shutdown because bus use is relatively rare. Most people can travel between friends and families by alternative means. But London relies on public transport so the hardship is more severe. If public transport staff shouldn't work on Christmas Day then you should ban private car use, because that requires hospital staff and police to work on Christmas Day to deal with accidents. Breakdown services still operate and even some petrol stations are open. I normally leave the country for Christmas to avoid this farce.

 

[WestCoast]

Most people I know, regardless of religion, spend Christmas Day with family and/or friends if they are not working at a hospital etc. I'm sure some do continue as normal, but that's quite difficult when pretty much everything else is closed.

However, I would agree that a Bank Holiday bus service should be provided in all major UK cities where public transport use is relatively high. I'm sure there's plenty of bus drivers for whom it wouldn't matter if they took the 26th or 3rd January off instead. Entirely voluntary it would have to be, but I'm sure they'd get enough volunteers in London.

 

[Hophead]

Southern Vectis provides a skeleton service on Christmas Day (hourly or two-hourly on the prinicipal routes roughly 08:00 - 22:00, according to the timetable which is available via the website).

I wonder if there's anybody here who's ever observed or sampled the routes and can tell us how busy the buses are?

 

[NorthernSpirit]

Hmm, only one desk leads to badness, can't they switch in the overnight sustain feed and bypass the desk, or use an emergency desk (£30 from CPC) to run a pre-rec?

There's two studios, one is always live the other is for pre recording but it has been used as a backup studio when the main desk went down.

How do the people cleaning those mixing desks get to work? How about the engineering work that's done on the trains at christmas? Christmas is one of the busiest times of the year for some areas precisely because fewer people are about.

The person who cleans the mixing desk lives locally and so walks to the radio station.

 

[Hadders]

I appreciate that some people have to work on Christmas Day but I think it's a really poor show if, as a country, we can't have one day a year where as many people as possible don't work.

 

[TRN481V]

I am an atheist, but I value Christmas Day dearly as it is just about the only time during the year that all my family has the chance to be together. I would certainly not volunteer to work, should my employer decide to run a service and I'd be very sceptical that today's "entirely voluntary" would not become "compulsory" within a few years.

Merseytravel, my local PTE runs Christmas Day services run, over the past few years, by Stagecoach so presumably they don't have a problem finding volunteers. These volunteers are, however, welcome to it. No amount of inducements would persuade me to work on Christmas or Boxing Days.

 

[Ianigsy]

who would want to drive a bus when they're looking forward to a roast with their wife and kids.

I still prefer turkey myself!

The whole issue of Christmas Day and Boxing Day public transport is vexed but one which intrigues me; as somebody who lives in Yorkshire but has parents in Merseyside, most years I find myself taking a train on Christmas Eve afternoon and sometimes coming back on the first train out of Liverpool on the 27th (fond memories of boarding a Class 185 at Lime Street which had been in the platform since Christmas Eve- brrr!). To be honest, not having a family of my own, I can understand why somebody would want to work or volunteer over the two days- it's preferable to sitting on your own looking at four walls, and as Christian observance declines there will be fewer people inclined to go to Christmas services as an alternative.

I suspect that England and Wales must be nearly unique in having a two-day shutdown; across much of Europe you do the family stuff on Christmas Eve, the religious bit on Christmas Day and then back to work on the 27th. I don't think Scotland ever really observed Boxing Day because the Presbyterians disapproved of saints' days, while the First Amendment to the US Constitution (separation of church and state) means that Christmas is observed out of tradition but again not the 26th.

 

[GatwickDepress]

In my view most of the 1995 generation onwards think religion is a joke (most kids these days are atheists), I don't think any of them have ever stepped foot into a church, cathedral or even a minster and have even gone to Midnight Mass and have no idea what Christmas is actually about, most can't speak properly as they keep saying 'and I was like' every couple of sentences - its sounds robotic.

I swear I've seen you on http://pointless-letters.tumblr.com/ at somepoint...

 

[Busaholic]

London bus services have changed dramatically since the last Christmas Day services were run. The so-called 'trunk' routes have mostly shrunk and/or been dramatically denuded of buses (the 16 ran every 2 or 3 minutes in the peak in the 1970s, for instance), to be partly replaced by more indirect routes and, particularly in outer London, many more local routes penetrating places either previously unserved or that hadn't been developed.

Expectations about the levels of service that might be achieved on Christmas Day might therefore be unnaturally high. IMO it would be better to experiment with an absolute maximum of 25 to 30 routes, all of them main road routes, and not necessarily with every operator taking part. Indeed, I'd encourage operators to suggest routes that might run, based on the feedback from drivers/union reps. Another fiasco like the Night Tube must be avoided at all costs!

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

do we really want to see Christmas Day services? Over the years we have seen the erosion of our Sundays as a day of rest, followed by Good Friday, Boxing Day and New Years Day. We now only have 2 days left in the year where the country, with the exception of ESSENTIAL services pauses for breath as one... Easter Sunday and Christmas Day.

One only has to see the effects of a regular day of rest in the likes of France and Spain where they still take Sunday seriously as a day for families to see how much more relaxed they are.

There is too much emphasis in this country on greed...

 

[Stonesourscotty]

In Melbourne all public transport runs for free except the 35 free tram on Christmas day a great way to get to the beach to enjoy a Cider on the beach at St Kilda

 

[Statto]

do we really want to see Christmas Day services? Over the years we have seen the erosion of our Sundays as a day of rest, followed by Good Friday, Boxing Day and New Years Day. We now only have 2 days left in the year where the country, with the exception of ESSENTIAL services pauses for breath as one... Easter Sunday and Christmas Day.

One only has to see the effects of a regular day of rest in the likes of France and Spain where they still take Sunday seriously as a day for families to see how much more relaxed they are.

There is too much emphasis in this country on greed...

Why not, taxis operate on Christmas Day so why not a skeleton bus service, they're are people who want to travel on Christmas Day, & there are people who work Christmas Day, who would like public transport operating rather than paying time & half or double time for a taxi.

 

[radamfi]

One only has to see the effects of a regular day of rest in the likes of France and Spain where they still take Sunday seriously as a day for families to see how much more relaxed they are.

Sunday is a big shopping day in the UK, second only to Saturday I believe, whereas Sunday shopping is much less common in mainland Europe. In some places, Sunday shopping is not allowed, but in other places where it is allowed, shops still stay shut. But that does not imply no Sunday bus service. Contrary to popular opinion, service is needed for other reasons than for shopping. So you can still expect a decent Sunday bus/tram/metro service in the Netherlands, Switzerland, Germany etc. and on public holidays too.

So, yes, Sunday has been kept special outside the UK. Outside the UK, Sunday and public holiday service is required to help keep these days special, as it enables people to meet other people and take part in social activities on these days.

Sunday services in the UK were more comprehensive in the 1980s than now, particularly before bus deregulation, despite Sunday shopping not being legal.

 

[SS4]

do we really want to see Christmas Day services? Over the years we have seen the erosion of our Sundays as a day of rest, followed by Good Friday, Boxing Day and New Years Day. We now only have 2 days left in the year where the country, with the exception of ESSENTIAL services pauses for breath as one... Easter Sunday and Christmas Day.

I would argue a skeleton bus service is an essential service (and buses did run to a Sunday service the last couple of Easter Sundays). I'm not saying a full Sunday service should run but at least a skeleton service for those staff who must work to get in. For my local route that would be hourly but it should be strictly voluntary - as LM can tell you it's not easy to provide a reliable service on volunteers only.

I have no problem with working Christmas Day as the day in lieu means I can have a day off when I want it.

Overall I think it's something that would be nice to have but it's not the most pressing transport issue we have (and my employer pays for taxis anyway which is much nicer than the bus )

 

[gage75]

What is the latest update on this idea, has a decision been made yet

 

[Tom B]

If that's true, that's no bad thing. I say this as someone who went to Catholic schools, and so was subjected to indoctrination for over a decade.

Most people outside London are not affected by the Christmas public transport shutdown because bus use is relatively rare. Most people can travel between friends and families by alternative means. But London relies on public transport so the hardship is more severe. If public transport staff shouldn't work on Christmas Day then you should ban private car use, because that requires hospital staff and police to work on Christmas Day to deal with accidents. Breakdown services still operate and even some petrol stations are open. I normally leave the country for Christmas to avoid this farce.

I think this is the crux of the matter, outwith London you are likely to either own a car (because public transport is so poor, expensive, unreliable or non-existent) or have a family member who does, so being able to go and see family/ Aunt Doris in hospital/ go to church is easy.

In London, because public transport is usable, many people don't have this option. I wonder what cabs are like on that day - easy to get one, or long waits? It would be interesting to see some stats from LDTA and one of the big minicab firms.

I suppose the problem of London being such a huge city is that operating even a basic service covering, say, the core night routes only, would be a huge investment at great risk, and could cause all sorts of problems (e.g. if on the day there's a huge demand for service and no extra resources to lay on duplicates - not that TfL ever bother doing that anyway!)

 

[plcd1]

What is the latest update on this idea, has a decision been made yet

We don't know. The minutes of the last meeting aren't made public until papers for the next one are published. Even if the panel said "yes" it would only be to develop the case a bit further not to sanction the running of services. Even if a case could be made after more work I suspect we'd be looking at Christmas 2017 before anything could run. TfL have not published dates for any meetings in 2016 yet.

Anyway courtesy of the Chancellor's removal of revenue grant from TfL there is absolutely NO money for an extra like a Christmas Day bus service. We will be doing well to see the bus network stand still in terms of service levels and coverage. More likely we will see expansion plans scrapped and more lightly used routes / times of day seeing service cuts. Sorry to be a grumpy pessimist but we face a funding crisis for the operation of TfL services.

 

[CatfordCat]

What is the latest update on this idea, has a decision been made yet

In terms of Christmas 2015, it is now far too late to do anything - full schedules for the Christmas period by now have got as far as being issued to bus garages, drivers allocated to duties and so on and (while I don't want to say what stage of the process I'm involved in) Christmas Day has not been.

TfL would have needed to start talking to bus operators several months ago - and they in turn needed to start talking to their staff representatives (although the experience over the night tube thing suggests that TfL don't think this stage is needed)

Yes, it could be done in future years but -

while there would probably be staff willing to volunteer to work 25 Dec, it would be more than just drivers - there would need to be TfL central control, control staff at the bus garages and the bus operators' radio rooms (the larger operators will have one radio room covering 2 or 3 garages), engineering cover to deal with breakdowns etc, and staff to clean and fuel vehicles either at the end of the day or an additional early morning shift to do this on the 26th.

When London Transport ran its own buses, not all garages opened on 25 Dec - many routes that had allocations from two or more garages (quite common then but a rarity now) only had one garage running - this saved on garage staff. (I don't know if staff at one garage that was closed had the opportunity to volunteer for a duty at the nearest garage that was running)

And even if it was 'volunteers only' then I expect the staff would expect enhanced pay for the day rather than set a precedent of it becoming 'just another working day'

Then there would be staff time both at TfL and the bus operators in agreeing service levels, preparing schedules, agreeing the price for something that was never in the original contracts, allocating drivers to duties, and feeding information in to the publicity machine / real time info system and so on - and finding a way of getting detailed info out to people who don't have internet access.

Financially, what would TfL get out of it? Travelcard holders would expect travel to be included in what they have already paid for, so only PAYG customers would actually pay anything. Getting the Oyster system to charge a premium fare on one day might be technically possible, but not sure if the cost of this would outweigh the income. And it would not be feasible to set up the ability to handle cash for one day only. Of course sponsorship could be sought in the same way as New Years night.

Some bus operators might however welcome a solution to the capacity problem that exists at Christmas - there are some garages that no longer have room for their whole allocation on the two nights when the night buses don't run!

 

[Robertj21a]

We don't know. The minutes of the last meeting aren't made public until papers for the next one are published. Even if the panel said "yes" it would only be to develop the case a bit further not to sanction the running of services. Even if a case could be made after more work I suspect we'd be looking at Christmas 2017 before anything could run. TfL have not published dates for any meetings in 2016 yet.

Anyway courtesy of the Chancellor's removal of revenue grant from TfL there is absolutely NO money for an extra like a Christmas Day bus service. We will be doing well to see the bus network stand still in terms of service levels and coverage. More likely we will see expansion plans scrapped and more lightly used routes / times of day seeing service cuts. Sorry to be a grumpy pessimist but we face a funding crisis for the operation of TfL services.

Of course those of us living outside TfL-land would look at those ridiculously low London bus fares and wonder why they couldn't be increased just a little bit to help cover costs........

 

[radamfi]

Of course those of us living outside TfL-land would look at those ridiculously low London bus fares and wonder why they couldn't be increased just a little bit to help cover costs........

The £1.50 single looks cheap, but that only allows for one trip without a change of bus. A lot of trips need a change of bus and if that is done as a return then from January you are looking at £4.50, comparable to single company day tickets in other major cities. Obviously in London a lot of people use the bus to change onto Tube and train, and in that case you can be looking at much more money.

It would be interesting to know the breakdown of what London bus travellers actually use each day, and especially what proportion change onto Tube/train. I would be surprised if that many people only take 1 or 2 buses a day and no other transport.

 

[miami]

The £1.50 single looks cheap, but that only allows for one trip without a change of bus. A lot of trips need a change of bus and if that is done as a return then from January you are looking at £4.50, comparable to single company day tickets in other major cities. Obviously in London a lot of people use the bus to change onto Tube and train, and in that case you can be looking at much more money.

It would be interesting to know the breakdown of what London bus travellers actually use each day, and especially what proportion change onto Tube/train. I would be surprised if that many people only take 1 or 2 buses a day and no other transport.

Yet a 2 mile trip to the bus station here costs between £1.80 and £3.50 each way depending on the mood of the driver. No change of bus, and no integration with the train and metro.

Poor Londoners.

 

[Robertj21a]

The £1.50 single looks cheap, but that only allows for one trip without a change of bus. A lot of trips need a change of bus and if that is done as a return then from January you are looking at £4.50, comparable to single company day tickets in other major cities. Obviously in London a lot of people use the bus to change onto Tube and train, and in that case you can be looking at much more money.

It would be interesting to know the breakdown of what London bus travellers actually use each day, and especially what proportion change onto Tube/train. I would be surprised if that many people only take 1 or 2 buses a day and no other transport.

My single (outside TfL) costs £2.70 for a 30 mins urban trip, if I need another bus it will be an extra fare. £1.50 for a bus trip, of any length, seems incredibly cheap to me. Company day tickets are of little use if you need more than one operator.

 

[plcd1]

The £1.50 single looks cheap, but that only allows for one trip without a change of bus. A lot of trips need a change of bus and if that is done as a return then from January you are looking at £4.50, comparable to single company day tickets in other major cities. Obviously in London a lot of people use the bus to change onto Tube and train, and in that case you can be looking at much more money.

It would be interesting to know the breakdown of what London bus travellers actually use each day, and especially what proportion change onto Tube/train. I would be surprised if that many people only take 1 or 2 buses a day and no other transport.

London Travelwatch have just released a report about the travel costs and choices for low paid workers in Outer London. It has a mix of research methods with Outer London residents and some interesting stats and findings. It does cover what modes people use to get to work / job interviews. It also blows away some myths about which Outer boroughs have the strongest commuting flows. It won't answer all your questions but might help.

The report – ‘Living on the Edge’ – was commissioned by London Councils, London TravelWatch and Trust for London and reveals the group of Londoners most affected by the rising cost of travel and the overheated property market. This group is excluded from central London due to the high cost of housing, but still commute to low-paid cleaning jobs and manual work in hotels and offices located in Zone 1.

 

[radamfi]

London Travelwatch have just released a report about the travel costs and choices for low paid workers in Outer London. It has a mix of research methods with Outer London residents and some interesting stats and findings. It does cover what modes people use to get to work / job interviews. It also blows away some myths about which Outer boroughs have the strongest commuting flows. It won't answer all your questions but might help.

Thanks for that. Figure 6 shows the proportions of London workers using the various combinations of public transport modes:

One bus ONLY 9%
Two buses ONLY 5%
London Underground ONLY 9%
Any bus AND any London Underground 8%
National Rail ONLY 6%
Any bus AND any National Rail 4%
London Underground AND National Rail 3%
London Overground ONLY 2%
Any bus AND any London Overground 2%
London Underground AND London Overground 2%
London Overground AND National Rail 1%

These percentages add up to 51%, so the rest can be assumed to be walking, cycling, or using a private car or van or taxi.

So only 9% of London workers (compared to 51% using any public transport) use one bus only. If you exclude modes that don't involve bus, that's 9% compared to 28%, so even on that basis, less than a third of London workers who use a bus at least part of the way use one bus only. These are the only ones who benefit from the £1.50 one vehicle fare.

Of course, we are only looking at trips to work here, not other trip purposes.

 

[plcd1]

Of course those of us living outside TfL-land would look at those ridiculously low London bus fares and wonder why they couldn't be increased just a little bit to help cover costs........

Well there are always choices aren't there? Putting to one side actual or perceived injustices about bus fares elsewhere in the UK you need to consider whether the London bus network has a value or not. Listening to some politicians you'd think it didn't exist never mind have any value. There is certainly little positive recognition that it's the busiest public transport mode, based on daily journeys made, in London. Most people would say it was the Tube but even on its busiest day the bus network carries 50% more journeys.

Where we have got to after 8 years of Boris is pretty much an end to the growth in patronage, barely any network development, revenue below budget and target and people deserting buses because of chronic traffic congestion (some caused by TfL's own schemes). Oh and bus fares up 66% over those 8 years. Londoners may well be "spoilt" compared to what other bus users have to tolerate but there is little appetite for higher fares (see the report I linked to in a reply to Mr Adamfi) and the system can't cope with population growth in some parts of London. We were just about to start seeing some extra funding coming on line to grow services and provide new links and add capacity. The Chancellor's cuts put all that at very serious risk.

My view is that the bus network is at a tipping point. You could make it commercial overnight but the consequences would be appalling. Frequencies would be slashed, fares would soar, routes would go leaving people without transport in some areas, traffic congestion would soar and the tube and rail networks would not cope with the diverted traffic. TfL wouldn't have a funding problem with buses but it (and the Boroughs) would have one heck of a problem on the roads and rails. Such a fundamental change would almost certainly be politically calamitous for whoever was in charge and it would hit Central Government too because London would cease to work properly and that has consequences for the economy and how the UK is perceived by potential investors.

Now you could probably keep pushing fares up on the buses but let's be clear that it wouldn't go to fund Christmas Day bus services. It would simply go to cover the loss of revenue grant or to somehow improve the network. If people were given the option of making their services better on 364 days of the year or adding buses on 1 day a year then I think they'd go for the first option. Unless whoever the next Mayor is makes it a manifesto commitment to have Christmas Day buses then they're simply not going to happen.

I expect bus fares will keep going up regardless of who becomes Mayor. Labour's fares freeze proposals will be completely discredited by the time we get to the election. The Tories quite clearly have it in their line of fire already and it will remain there until it has been completely trashed in the minds of the voters. They did it with Ken back in 2012 when he had very similar proposals to Mr Khan and people didn't believe it then. Given the failure of Labour to win nationally because of a lack of economic credibility then continuing with unfinanceable commitments in London is a serious error (IMO of course). Why give your opponents such easy things to attack?