Christmas Day Bus Services for London

[plcd1]

TfL have produced a paper on the subject which goes to next week's Surface Transport Panel.

Looks like the basic conclusion is "not value for money" given the basic analysis undertaken so far. Clearly the decision about whether to do more work is being left to the Panel members to decide.

http://content.tfl.gov.uk/stp-20151022-part-1-item13-christmas-day-bus-services.pdf

Recommendation
2.1 The Panel is asked to note the results of this preliminary examination of the case for a bus service on Christmas Day and that further work would be necessary to establish a robust business case including a more detailed analysis of likely costs.

 

[Statto]

I would have thought they'd be scope for services that at least serve the hospitals which Merseyside have, as on Merseyside buses operate a special service on Christmas Day 12-6pm serving the hospitals.

 

[Be3G]

For what it's worth, this has been on TfL's mind for over a year now; it was briefly discussed this time last year here.

I'd fully welcome – and use – a Christmas Day bus service in London, if the service were reasonable enough. Living in suburbia means I expect the ‘quarter network’ wouldn't be very useful for me; probably akin to the night bus network with only major town centres served. However, the reduced Sunday idea would be fine, as whilst the frequencies might be low, reliability should be perfect considering the complete lack of traffic. The 9am–9pm operating hours would work well for me too, so assuming that's the option TfL would be investigating more fully as it has the highest BCR, I'd be very happy indeed.

Sadly, I note that there is no mention of further Christmas Day bus investigations on the Surface Transport Panel meeting's Matters Arising and Actions List, so it does look like the outcome is very much up in the air at the moment.

 

[deltic]

Its interesting to note that while the paper shows little economic case for running services it suggests they would be used by around 1.2-1.3m passengers. This compares to Boxing Day services which are used by around 3.2 million passengers, or about 80 per cent of typical Sunday usage.

 

[Be3G]

Indeed. I wonder what the Boxing Day usage figures were perhaps 10–15 years ago back when that day used to have a special bus service rather than being based on the standard Sunday timetable?

 

[jon0844]

1.2 million isn't insignificant. As time goes on, with more and more of London not celebrating Christmas and many quite treating it almost as a normal working day (depending on what day it falls on), I am certain we'll be seeing more public transport operating.

 

[keppoch69]

To me, December 25 is just another day, so why do we not have all transport, retail and every other service operating on it? Same goes for January 1 and 2.
I realise for maintenance they are a good thing.

 

[plcd1]

For what it's worth, this has been on TfL's mind for over a year now; it was briefly discussed this time last year here.

I'd fully welcome – and use – a Christmas Day bus service in London, if the service were reasonable enough. Living in suburbia means I expect the ‘quarter network’ wouldn't be very useful for me; probably akin to the night bus network with only major town centres served. However, the reduced Sunday idea would be fine, as whilst the frequencies might be low, reliability should be perfect considering the complete lack of traffic. The 9am–9pm operating hours would work well for me too, so assuming that's the option TfL would be investigating more fully as it has the highest BCR, I'd be very happy indeed.

Sadly, I note that there is no mention of further Christmas Day bus investigations on the Surface Transport Panel meeting's Matters Arising and Actions List, so it does look like the outcome is very much up in the air at the moment.

We actually have to let the Panel meet next week and see what they decide. They may opt to request more work is done to develop the costs and likely network scope to confirm the business case position or they may ask for work to stop. Unfortunately the next Panel won't be until early 2016 (based on the typical pattern of these meetings).

I think one of the fundamental issues is if a service did run what would the customer expectation be and how would you communicate what does run and how often. A couple of years ago I was around at Christmas and went for a stroll on Christmas Day. A fair number of corner shops were open and a decent number of people were out and about. I actually had to tell two people there were no buses running as they were waiting at stops! If other cities can happily run services with little issue I find it suprising that London can't run some level of service.

I know there are very pointed views about whether you could / should mandate Christmas Day working for transport staff. The counter balance is whether you could get enough volunteers and at what cost to run a viable service for the public. I wonder what cost and staffing assumptions TfL have made in their outline numbers and whether having to pay a handsome premium for staff is what has made the business case relatively poor?

 

[jon0844]

When it comes to taxis and buses, I'd imagine there are plenty of people willing to work and can do so with minimal support staff (control).

I assume that's why trains can't and won't run, as it's not just as easy as asking drivers to volunteer for an extra lot of cash.

I don't expect services to stop on other religious days and suspect more and more people don't expect it at Christmas.

Most see it as a day off and where you spend time with family and get gifts etc, and some people need to travel to do so. I doubt many people, especially youngsters, feel much connection with Christianity.

 

[Robertj21a]

When it comes to taxis and buses, I'd imagine there are plenty of people willing to work and can do so with minimal support staff (control).

I assume that's why trains can't and won't run, as it's not just as easy as asking drivers to volunteer for an extra lot of cash.

I don't expect services to stop on other religious days and suspect more and more people don't expect it at Christmas.

Most see it as a day off and where you spend time with family and get gifts etc, and some people need to travel to do so. I doubt many people, especially youngsters, feel much connection with Christianity.

A high proportion of London residents won't be Christians and, in any event, many will have come from other countries where Christmas Day public transport is perfectly normal - places like Germany, Austria etc celebrate on Christmas Eve.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think one of the fundamental issues is if a service did run what would the customer expectation be and how would you communicate what does run and how often.

Well, Merseytravel issue old fashioned timetable leaflets and stick a PDF on their website. Seems to work.

One option with such a complex setup might be to run routes that are effectively rail replacement buses for selected Tube lines. That said, that moves away from Merseytravel's approach, which is to mainly serve hospitals for maximum social benefit.

 

[jon0844]

A high proportion of London residents won't be Christians and, in any event, many will have come from other countries where Christmas Day public transport is perfectly normal - places like Germany, Austria etc celebrate on Christmas Eve.

Indeed. Being half Swedish and married to a Swede, it's worth noting that even on Christmas Eve in Sweden things don't grind to a halt.

People still need to get around, and some countries encourage the use of public transport. Especially if people want to enjoy a drink or two!

 

[Be3G]

I don't expect services to stop on other religious days and suspect more and more people don't expect it at Christmas.

On that note, I was interested to see in the TfL paper that travel to places of worship was given a higher priority by survey respondents for Christmas Day than the rest of the year.

 

[deltic]

To me, December 25 is just another day, so why do we not have all transport, retail and every other service operating on it? Same goes for January 1 and 2.
I realise for maintenance they are a good thing.
I realise that there are some cranks who use December 25 as some kind of celebration for a myth which never was. Thankfully these people are dying off and not being replaced so the need for the rest of us to shut down on certain days will be a thing of the past. YAY.

I am happy to be counted amongst the "cranks"

 

[NorthernSpirit]

To me, the 25th December is just another day, so why do we not have all transport, retail and every other service operating on it? Same goes for 1st and 2nd January.
I realise for maintenance they are a good thing.
I realise that there are some cranks who use 25th December as some kind of celebration for a myth which never was. Thankfully these people are dying off and not being replaced so the need for the rest of us to shut down on certain days will be a thing of the past. YAY.

Put it this way, I'm part of the last generation (born sometime between 1984 to 1994) that actually celebrates Christmas. For some Christmas, New Year and Easter are the only times that they can get off work.

It also allows people to have time off so that they can be with their families, unless they're a millitant atheist crank then they can do without.

Nationally a standard service on the 25th December wouldn't work, who would want to drive a bus when they're looking forward to a roast with their wife and kids.

 

[deltic]

Put it this way, I'm part of the last generation (born sometime between 1984 to 1994) that actually celebrates Christmas. For some Christmas, New Year and Easter are the only times that they can get off work.

It also allows people to have time off so that they can be with their families, unless they're a millitant atheist crank then they can do without.

Nationally a standard service on the 25th December wouldn't work, who would want to drive a bus when they're looking forward to a roast with their wife and kids.

But as others have mentioned there are plenty of people who would be happy to work on Christmas Day - trouble is could you run a service just using volunteers.

 

[jon0844]

Trains, obviously not. Taxis, easily. Buses, most likely. Especially as there are rather a lot of bus drivers who I'd assume aren't Christian and might value some extra overtime.

 

[GaryMcEwan]

Lothian Buses manage to do it every year without any problems. Maybe TFL should take a leaf out of there book...

 

[Be3G]

Taxis, easily. Buses, most likely. Especially as there are rather a lot of bus drivers who I'd assume aren't Christian and might value some extra overtime.

'Round my way, all the taxi firms work on Christmas Day and in recent years some of them have even started charging just normal fares rather than time and a half or double. This is also one of those pockets of London where there're more residents who consider themselves to not be British than who do, which makes it less surprising that there's such a willingness to forego the festivities of Christmas Day as it's more of a British tradition and just work instead.

 

[73001]

Lothian Buses manage to do it every year without any problems. Maybe TFL should take a leaf out of there book...

I don't think they have any problems, I think they're just considering whether it's value for money. Do Lothian charge on Christmas Day? I'm sure the Merseytravel ones are free (or certainly used to be) so social need is seen as more important than cost.

 

[Bookd]

In terms of finding and paying for staff would it not be the case in London (and other large cities) that there will be large numbers of drivers of the Hindu and Muslim faiths. I suggest that many might be content to give up their right to Christmas off if in return they had holiday entitlement for their own festivals such as Eid, Diwali (or other festivals for other religions)

 

[pitdiver]

My experience of working with people of other faiths such as those mentioned is that they are more than happy to celebrate traditional Christian festivals ie Christmas with it's days off. And in addition want time off for their own festivals. I work in retailing.

 

[Robertj21a]

In terms of finding and paying for staff would it not be the case in London (and other large cities) that there will be large numbers of drivers of the Hindu and Muslim faiths. I suggest that many might be content to give up their right to Christmas off if in return they had holiday entitlement for their own festivals such as Eid, Diwali (or other festivals for other religions)

No problem with staffing, probably anywhere. There's plenty of people with no religious views whatsoever, plenty of people on their own - and plenty of people who are only too happy to get away from the family !

 

[miami]

Plenty of industries work christmas, emergency services, utility companies, TV, airplanes, internet providers, restaurants, farmers. Do coaches run on the day?

Not a religious person by any stretch, but a common date to celebrate a midwinter feast is certainly something worthwhile. I just wish it was in early February when SAD is at its worst.

And my youngest turns 1 today (in about 2 hours specially), I'm fairly sure he'll like Christmas as much as his big brother.

I assume most companies (in big cities at least) pay for taxis for people working xmas day due to lack of public transport.

 

[Flying Snail]

Plenty of industries work christmas, emergency services, utility companies, TV, airplanes, internet providers, restaurants, farmers. Do coaches run on the day?

A very high % of people do not work on the 25th and a significant % are off through the whole christmas-new year period.

Personally I have no particular attachment to that day as I have no interest in any flavour of sky wizard worship but I don't think it is a bad thing that we have 1 day in the year when most businesses can be expected to be shut or running at skeleton levels.

I do think that there is something in the fact that rampant consumerism is at it's lowest on the day that generates an annual orgy of consumerism.

I assume most companies (in big cities at least) pay for taxis for people working xmas day due to lack of public transport.

In my experience those who earn enough to afford to pay for their own taxi will get reimbursed while those that don't have to get to work at their own expense.

 

[mark-h]

Do Lothian charge on Christmas Day?

Normal daytime fares.

Attached is the Lothian Buses/TFE Christmas leaflet from 2014 showing the services offered over the festive period.

 

[Bookd]

Is this because Scotland has always been different? Not so long ago Christmas barely featured, but Hogmanay was a different matter! Even in the NE of England New Year's day was an unofficial holiday before it became a bank holiday in the rest of England, and New Year was the main event while Christmas was just for the children.
When I worked in a bank in the 60s branches in Northumberland, Durham and Cumberland opened for about an hour on New Year's Day to meet a legal requirement - I remember staff turning up in either dinner suit or party dress as they had not been home from the night before.

 

[radamfi]

Do coaches run on the day?

Megabus have run a limited Christmas Day service for a number of years and in recent years National Express have been running a few services as well. The Oxford Tube has also run on Christmas Day for many years, making an extra stop at Heathrow.

 

[pitdiver]

Megabus have run a limited Christmas Day service for a number of years and in recent years National Express have been running a few services as well. The Oxford Tube has also run on Christmas Day for many years, making an extra stop at Heathrow.

Yes indeed NX do run a few services on Christmas day. However the fares were about double the normal fare, the services ran if I recall to Heathrow from about 6 location calling at about everywhere en route. When I managed a NX coach station none of the staff worked on Christmas day as they were not contracted to do so.
Boxing day was slightly different. A limited service operated with minimum staff on duty. My worst memory of Boxing Day was being asked to look after an elderly couple who were getting on a coach at about 1930 hrs. They had been left by the son. He said he was going to a party so he had to go. This was at about 1800hrs.
I had been on duty since about 1000so I told him that I was going home and he would have to look after the couple.

Oone of the reason Me and NX parted company as no doubt the managers were enjoying the festivities.
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Put it this way, I'm part of the last generation (born sometime between 1984 to 1994) that actually celebrates Christmas. For some Christmas, New Year and Easter are the only times that they can get off work.

It also allows people to have time off so that they can be with their families, unless they're a millitant atheist crank then they can do without.

Nationally a standard service on the 25th December wouldn't work, who would want to drive a bus when they're looking forward to a roast with their wife and kids.

Hear bloody hear. I now refuse to work on Boxing Day and always will as I like to have two days off together to be with my family.

 

[radamfi]

Boxing day was slightly different. A limited service operated with minimum staff on duty.

Boxing Day is almost normal service from about 0800 from both Megabus and National Express.